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Made in us
Did Fulgrim Just Behead Ferrus?





Fort Worth, TX

Exactly. It's a magical equation where the medical service provider tries to get as much money as they can, compared to what the insurance is willing to pay. If the provider feels they got enough money from the insurance, then they usually won't charge you anymore. If they didn't get enough, that's when you suddenly see a bill for something.

In my case, a few years ago, I was in the hospital 2 nights, three days, for an appendectomy. I paid a grand total of a little less than $300. Clearly, the hospital decided they got enough from my insurance company.

As for why costs keep rising, that is partly due to the ridiculous amounts of medical fraud going on out there.

"Through the darkness of future past, the magician longs to see.
One chants out between two worlds: Fire, walk with me."
- Twin Peaks
"You listen to me. While I will admit to a certain cynicism, the fact is that I am a naysayer and hatchetman in the fight against violence. I pride myself in taking a punch and I'll gladly take another because I choose to live my life in the company of Gandhi and King. My concerns are global. I reject absolutely revenge, aggression, and retaliation. The foundation of such a method... is love. I love you Sheriff Truman." - Twin Peaks 
   
Made in us
Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges




United States

 whembly wrote:

Where should it be placed Master Yoda?


Nowhere, I thought that was obvious given that I was deriding your claim about an "explicit plan".

 whembly wrote:

But, I have NO fething clue as to what were the cost for the services rendered at the ED. It's a shell game.


No, it is the natural consequence of privatized emergency services.

And, lets be honest, would you have refused treatment had the bill been presented up front? Would you understand the necessity of any procedure that was completed while you were insensate due to pain or sedatives, such that you could determine what was an wasn't necessary?

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/11/15 23:53:51


Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

Heh... #Grubering



Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!


 
   
Made in us
Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges




United States

I like how Gruber is presented as the architect of Obamacare, and not merely an architect of Obamacare.

And the "#Grubering" thing is stupid. It seems as if an old man thought "Hey, the kids like hash tags, let's throw one in our ad!"

Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

Eh...

For five years, Republicans have been searching for the perfect messenger to speak out against Obamacare. They have finally found him. His name is Jonathan Gruber.



I mean... I want to reach into these videos and wipe that supercilious smirk off his face as he gleefully recounts how he bamboozled Americans.

EDIT: Gruber, who?!?!?


This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/11/16 03:00:54


Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!


 
   
Made in br
Wolf Guard Bodyguard in Terminator Armor




 dogma wrote:


 whembly wrote:

But, I have NO fething clue as to what were the cost for the services rendered at the ED. It's a shell game.


No, it is the natural consequence of privatized emergency services.

And, lets be honest, would you have refused treatment had the bill been presented up front? Would you understand the necessity of any procedure that was completed while you were insensate due to pain or sedatives, such that you could determine what was an wasn't necessary?



So, extortion. Or blackmail. One of those. Question answered, gotcha!
   
Made in us
Did Fulgrim Just Behead Ferrus?





Fort Worth, TX

 whembly wrote:

I mean... I want to reach into these videos and wipe that supercilious smirk off his face as he gleefully recounts how he bamboozled Americans.


Eh, let's be honest, the only difference between Gruber and everyone else in D.C. is that he got caught saying that stuff on video, the rest just have the good sense to say it in private.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bran Dawri wrote:
 dogma wrote:


 whembly wrote:

But, I have NO fething clue as to what were the cost for the services rendered at the ED. It's a shell game.


No, it is the natural consequence of privatized emergency services.

And, lets be honest, would you have refused treatment had the bill been presented up front? Would you understand the necessity of any procedure that was completed while you were insensate due to pain or sedatives, such that you could determine what was an wasn't necessary?



So, extortion. Or blackmail. One of those. Question answered, gotcha!


I think the reason the medical care providers don't tell you the prices upfront is because they want to see how much they can get from the insurance company. If Blue Cross will pay, say, $5000, then your bill will somehow be $5000. If Aetna will pay $4000, then the bill will be $4000. That's my opinion, anyway.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/16 04:56:11


"Through the darkness of future past, the magician longs to see.
One chants out between two worlds: Fire, walk with me."
- Twin Peaks
"You listen to me. While I will admit to a certain cynicism, the fact is that I am a naysayer and hatchetman in the fight against violence. I pride myself in taking a punch and I'll gladly take another because I choose to live my life in the company of Gandhi and King. My concerns are global. I reject absolutely revenge, aggression, and retaliation. The foundation of such a method... is love. I love you Sheriff Truman." - Twin Peaks 
   
Made in us
Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges




United States

 whembly wrote:

I mean... I want to reach into these videos and wipe that supercilious smirk off his face as he gleefully recounts how he bamboozled Americans.


That's nice, but you're making yourself easier to bamboozle when you pick a side; as you clearly have.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

Eh, let's be honest, the only difference between Gruber and everyone else in D.C. is that he got caught saying that stuff on video, the rest just have the good sense to say it in private.


The "everyone else in D.C." notion is also part of the problem. It necessitates the differentiation between "D.C." and the rest of the country.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

I think the reason the medical care providers don't tell you the prices upfront is because they want to see how much they can get from the insurance company. If Blue Cross will pay, say, $5000, then your bill will somehow be $5000. If Aetna will pay $4000, then the bill will be $4000. That's my opinion, anyway.


They don't tell you the prices upfront because they don't know them. Working on a person is not like working on a car.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/11/16 07:30:36


Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

One of the reasons that US healthcare is so expensive compared to everyone else's is that very detailed accounting has to be done to justify the costs to the insurance company.

Accounting is an overhead.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in us
Combat Jumping Akalis



Too close to Jersey.

I've seen ibuprofen tablets on hospital invoices go for 62$ a piece. They're what? 32 cents anywhere else? Mark ups like that are utilized in hopes some will pay the extortion. That some do and therefore cover multiple persons who didn't pay at all is indicative, to my mind, of a broken system. I'm sure insurance companies(when utilized) haggle down that price on a claim, btw, but the cost of the haggler's salary plus the likely still overcharged pill's final price are both reasons we see ever skyrocketing premiums.

As an aside, regardless of recent fallout, I think the VA healthcare system is a better running machine than the privatized hospitals I've encountered. In the '80's, I recall the VA hospitals i visited being slummy dumps, but now? They seem cutting edge(more streamlined, better technology). Bureaucracy is still a dirty word, but at times it serves a purpose.
   
Made in us
Colonel





This Is Where the Fish Lives

Rusty Trombone wrote:

As an aside, regardless of recent fallout, I think the VA healthcare system is a better running machine than the privatized hospitals I've encountered. In the '80's, I recall the VA hospitals i visited being slummy dumps, but now? They seem cutting edge(more streamlined, better technology). Bureaucracy is still a dirty word, but at times it serves a purpose.
I've had the privilege of working at Walter Reed National Military Medical Center and Fort Belvoir Community Hospital, the latter from the ground up. Both of those facilities are far more impressive than any other hospital I've ever been in.

 d-usa wrote:
"When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people."
 
   
Made in us
Blood Angel Captain Wracked with Visions






From "Hope" and "Change" to "Of course politicians lie"

 
   
Made in no
Hacking Interventor






Look towards Scandinavia to find out how Public Healthcare can be run. Yes we have some issues. But overall it's WAAAAY cheaper than insurance. Besides I'm uninsurable with my health issues. Had I been able to get an affordable plan even that would be worse than the offer from the Public Healthcare system here.
We also have our own form of deductible. Egenandel. But we have a ceiling on that. And after that everything is covered by the government. In my cases I've had cabs to and from. Docs appointments. Tests, everything after around 400 USD is covered by egenandel.
With US pricing I'd be on the street from all the medical expenses.
Having just spent a week in the hospital I was presented with a bill for a WHOOPING 40-45 USD.

Correct me if I'm wrong here.
Wasn't the healthcare reform meant to level the playing field for who gets proper healthcare? A subtle way of getting your system more inline with your neighbours from the north?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/16 11:08:12


I may be an donkey-cave, but at least I'm an equal oppurtunity donkey-cave...

 
   
Made in us
Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges




United States

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
From "Hope" and "Change" to "Of course politicians lie"


Are you trying to argue that the '08 Obama campaign and Gruber's statements are synonymous? If so, that is very lazy.

Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

 dogma wrote:
 whembly wrote:

I mean... I want to reach into these videos and wipe that supercilious smirk off his face as he gleefully recounts how he bamboozled Americans.


That's nice, but you're making yourself easier to bamboozle when you pick a side; as you clearly have.

You haven't been paying attention and been trying to fit in sideways snark doggie. (to be fair, I do it at the other thread. )

But, I've ALWAYS been consistent in my opposition. It's the Democrats (who didn't read it) and those who SUPPORTED the Democrats whom been bamboozled.n



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Tjomball wrote:

Wasn't the healthcare reform meant to level the playing field for who gets proper healthcare? A subtle way of getting your system more inline with your neighbours from the north?

No. It's really more of the same, with crony capitalism at it's worst with some progressive spices mixed in.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/11/16 16:57:18


Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




More Gruber fun:

http://twitchy.com/2014/11/16/david-axelrod-calls-gruber-the-definition-of-stupid-gets-asked-one-great-question/
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!



Heh.

It needs to be a verb now:
Gruber verb \groo-burr\
: To tell a lie deliberately with the intent of misleading.
: To misinform people based on the belief that they are too stupid to understand the wisdom of your position.

example: To conceal the truth about Obamacare it was necessary to gruber the entire nation.
noun
: A calculated mistruth intended to deceive listeners

example: The explanation given in favor of Obamacare was one huge gruber from one end to the other.

Gruberish noun \groo-burr-esh\
: Any bewildering deluge of falsehoods designed to confound an audience based on the speaker's awareness that the truth must be concealed by any means necessary.

example: A preposterous mountain of gruberish was put forth intended to hide the fact that the entire nation had been grubered about Obamacare.

Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!


 
   
Made in us
Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges




United States

 whembly wrote:

You haven't been paying attention and been trying to fit in sideways snark doggie. (to be fair, I do it at the other thread. )


No, I've been paying attention. As you know it is my job to do so. I just don't see a problem with anything that Gruber said, at least beyond the political ramifications; which have been largely overstated. People that hated Obama care Gruber will still hate it, and those that didn't still won't. Double points as there's another year before the next election cycle begins.

 whembly wrote:

But, I've ALWAYS been consistent in my opposition. It's the Democrats (who didn't read it) and those who SUPPORTED the Democrats whom been bamboozled.n


I never said that you were inconsistent, I said that picking a side makes you easier to bamboozle. I said this as vehement support or opposition to anything makes you a part of the choir, a group that is famously easy to preach to.



Why in the world does David Axelrod use Twitter?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/11/16 22:31:01


Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Leerstetten, Germany

 whembly wrote:


Heh.

It needs to be a verb now:
Gruber verb \groo-burr\
: To tell a lie deliberately with the intent of misleading.
: To misinform people based on the belief that they are too stupid to understand the wisdom of your position.

example: To conceal the truth about Obamacare it was necessary to gruber the entire nation.
noun
: A calculated mistruth intended to deceive listeners

example: The explanation given in favor of Obamacare was one huge gruber from one end to the other.

Gruberish noun \groo-burr-esh\
: Any bewildering deluge of falsehoods designed to confound an audience based on the speaker's awareness that the truth must be concealed by any means necessary.

example: A preposterous mountain of gruberish was put forth intended to hide the fact that the entire nation had been grubered about Obamacare.


The only real definition would be "thinking you lied when you didn't."

Every "lie" he talks about is stuff that was common knowledge during the time the ACA was debates. That's what makes this while discussion just beyond stupid.

Cadillac tax that will secretly build up to a trillion dollars? That's where the projected trillion dollar deficit reduction came from that was discussed before the ACA vote.
The people are to stupid to realize that healthy people will pay for sick people? That's how insurance works and it was stated over and over again that this concept is why the individual mandate has to be a part of the ACA, because healthy people have to sign up to pay for the sick people.

All his lies never happened, and people repeating his lies as proof of anything when he basic evidence shows that none of it ever happened is just dumb. The guy is an idiot, not for revealing the lies but for thinking that the lies happened in the first place.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






Another mystery, my friend, to while away the cold winter nights on.
   
Made in us
Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges




United States

 d-usa wrote:
The guy is an idiot, not for revealing the lies but for thinking that the lies happened in the first place.


The guy is an idiot for publicly using "lie" in the way it is generally used in political consultancy.

For example I often describe my job as "I tell people how to lie to other people." This is not literally true, it is a joke. If I were being literal I would describe my job as "I develop and analyze data in order to tell people how not to present an argument to large groups of people." But the joke is easier to make, and more likely to keep people engaged if I happen to be speaking.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/16 23:25:50


Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
Made in us
Secret Force Behind the Rise of the Tau




USA

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
Rusty Trombone wrote:

As an aside, regardless of recent fallout, I think the VA healthcare system is a better running machine than the privatized hospitals I've encountered. In the '80's, I recall the VA hospitals i visited being slummy dumps, but now? They seem cutting edge(more streamlined, better technology). Bureaucracy is still a dirty word, but at times it serves a purpose.
I've had the privilege of working at Walter Reed National Military Medical Center and Fort Belvoir Community Hospital, the latter from the ground up. Both of those facilities are far more impressive than any other hospital I've ever been in.


I will second this. Walter Reed is an amazing hospital. Far more incredible than any other I've ever seen. That building is just... just wow. Plus you can just sit in the parking lots and watch the Blackhawks fly by

   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Illinois

 dogma wrote:
 d-usa wrote:
The guy is an idiot, not for revealing the lies but for thinking that the lies happened in the first place.


The guy is an idiot for publicly using "lie" in the way it is generally used in political consultancy.

For example I often describe my job as "I tell people how to lie to other people." This is not literally true, it is a joke. If I were being literal I would describe my job as "I develop and analyze data in order to tell people how not to present an argument to large groups of people." But the joke is easier to make, and more likely to keep people engaged if I happen to be speaking.

Isn't that just all part of basic marketing? I mean titles of books, news headlines, names of products, names of organizations, and well names of anything really are often chosen very deliberately most times. Any marketing campaign also chooses its words carefully, knowing certain words have meanings associated with them and some phrases are better for selling something than others. Politicians and parties do this all the time too, I mean if your local TV ads for the midterms were anything like mine they where full of this stuff as well as misleading information, half truths and in some cases flat out lies.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2014/11/16 23:44:51


 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

Dear Democrats, Don’t Even Think about Running from Jonathan Gruber
Ian Tuttle has a nice piece up over on the homepage about the Democrats’ many efforts to distance themselves from Jonathan “stupidity of the American voter” Gruber. He used to be known as the “architect” of Obamacare and now, according to CBS News, the Democrats are trying to “turn Gruber into a stranger.”

Not so fast.

In a 2010 piece, the Daily Kos outlined Gruber’s deep ties to the White House and to HHS, providing even links to his HHS contracts and the stated justifications for his contracts. The language from the presolicitation notice is particularly interesting (note highlighted portions):

The Department of Health and Human Services (DHHS), Assistant Secretary for Planning and Evaluation (ASPE), intends to negotiate with Jonathan Gruber, Ph.D. on a sole sources basis for technical assistance in evaluating options for national healthcare reform. The basis for restricting competition is the authority of 41 USC 253(c)(1) 106-1(b) because there is only one responsible source and no other supplies or services will satisfy DHHS requirements.The anticipated contract period will be eight months. [Emphasis added].


And . . .

Dr. Gruber is uniquely positioned to provide the analytic work ASPE requires based on over 15 years of experience in health care and health policy. Dr. Gruber is a recognized expert in health policy in economics including being widely published in peer-reviewed academic and health policy literature on the effects of changes in health benefit designs on the cost of enrollment in health insurance. Moreover, in order to estimate the impacts, Dr. Gruber developed a proprietary statistically sophisticated micro-simulation model that has the flexibility to ascertain the distribution of changes in health care spending and public and private sector health care costs due to a large variety of changes in health insurance benefit design, public program eligibility criteria, and tax policy. This model has been used for other health reform proposal. Finally, Dr. Gruber’s ongoing work with ASPE, using these proprietary models to help inform the Office of Health Reform, strongly positions him to meet HHS’ requirements the most efficiently, which is a key requirement in order for well-developed legislative proposals to be put forth for Congressional consideration as soon as possible. [Emphasis added].


That’s not all. Daily Kos also helpfully links to five White House blog posts citing Gruber. One of them, by Nancy-Ann DeParle (then assistant to the president and deputy chief of staff for policy) demonstrates how much the administration relied on his expertise in public debate. Titled, “MIT Economist Confirms Senate Health Reform Bill Reduces Costs and Improves Coverage,” it begins like this:

Jonathan Gruber, PhD, a MIT Economist who has been closely following the health insurance reform process, issued a compelling new report based on data from the non-partisan Congressional Budget Office. As the Politico wrote, “The report concludes that under the Senate’s health-reform bill, Americans buying individual coverage will pay less than they do for today’s typical individual market coverage, and would be protected from high out-of-pocket costs.” Here are some key points:

Gruber concludes that the Senate proposal’s health insurance exchange, choices and competition, and policies to hold insurers accountable would reduce costs. Savings for people purchasing coverage in the individual market would range from $200 to 500 for individuals and families, and would be greater if people opted for basic benefits. People with low incomes would receive premium tax credits that would reduce the price that they pay for health insurance by as much as $2,500 to $7,500 in 2009 dollars.


Let’s pause for a moment and reflect on the magnificence of these paragraphs. Not only do they demonstrate the White House’s reliance on Dr. Gruber, they also call into question who truly suffers from “stupidity,” White House policy “experts” or the American voter? Look at those projections of cost savings. Now, compare them with the reality, where Obamacare premiums are rising by an average of 7.5 percent.

And Gruber’s influence extended beyond Washington. In addition to receiving $392,000 from the federal government, Gruber was paid staggering sums of money by friendly Democrats in state government to produce “cookie cutter reports” supporting Obamacare. Here’s the Washington Times:

Minnesota, for example, used federal Obamacare grants to pay Mr. Gruber to attend one meeting, participate in a biweekly email list and print a copy of the report, all for $329,000. Wisconsin paid Mr. Gruber $400,000 for the same material, requested by the office of then-Gov. Jim Doyle, a Democrat. When the report was presented, Gov. Scott Walker, a Republican, didn’t want Mr. Gruber at the news conference. Vermont is paying him another $400,000 . . . West Virginia, Maine, Colorado and Oregon have partaken of Mr. Gruber’s services, too, guaranteeing him a tidy sum.


It’s clear that Obamacare has been very, very good for Mr. Gruber. It’s equally clear that there’s no credible way for Democrats — state or federal — to run from him now. No one believes that he is solely responsible for Obamacare, but he was certainly instrumental — not just in its architecture but also in the critically important role of selling it to the American people. Democrats, including the White House, were proud of his involvement, eager to parade him in front of the public, and considered his involvement a “key requirement for . . . legislative proposals to be put forth for Congressional consideration.”

So, when Gruber states repeatedly that the law was deliberately opaque, that subsidies are not available through the federal exchanges, and that Obamacare’s drafters were deliberately attempting to exploit perceived voter “stupidity,” he was most definitely in a position to know. The Obama administration owns his comments. Every single one.


But here's one Democrat Senator saying, "yeah, we lied":


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/16 23:57:55


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Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

Here's Gruber bragging that RomneyCare was set up, with an acknowledge assistance of Ted Kennedy, to “rip off” the federal government to the tune of $400 million a year:




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Yesterday Obama said everything had been debated so it was transparent. Pelosi said they had to pass it to know what was in it. Who is the liar?
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






 Grey Templar wrote:
Even if none of the things the Right said about it came true, the bad things that have happened(or will happen) with the ACA are more than enough to warrant its abolition. The whole thing is a piece of garbage, maybe not in the same ways people claimed, but that doesn't make it any more acceptable.


I am going to take issue with the bolded/underlined. There are several wonderful facets of ACA that everyone seems to want to ignore.

Before I detail that, let me be clear: I am one of the people who thought ACA didn't go far enough; that we should be moving to national healthcare, or at the very least single payer. I think the current insurance system is disgusting.

That said, an example: ACA removed the "pre-existing condition" excuse for denying coverage. It was, frankly, bs. It forced people to stay in garbage situations because switching insurance and sometimes JOBS meant losing coverage of a medical condition. Have cancer and lose your job? Your chances of getting coverage for your treatment were next to none. Now? Companies can't deny payment.

As a personal anecdote, which I believe I've shared with dakka before; I started having trouble with a salivary gland. At the time I first went to the doctor, my company offered garbage insurance, but garbage was better than no insurance. In the end, I had to have surgery to get the gland removed. It was so full of stones that instead of the normal pea sized gland in your neck, mine was roughly the size of a golfball. If ACA hadn't changed the "pre-existing condition" clause, I would have had to decide between changing jobs (and thus insurance) or staying with crappy job and insurance JUST so the medical bills didn't destroy me. Let's be clear here: Even with insurance I would have had to take out a loan to pay the tens of thousands of dollars my portion would have been. (My old insurance only payed 80% of hospital costs.) Instead, I waited, got a better job and was able to get better insurance. I payed my $200 deduction for surgery costs. That was it.
   
Made in us
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The Great State of Texas

Evidently Pelosi was right.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Leerstetten, Germany

Considering that the majority of people don't like ObamaCare and that the majority of people like almost everything that the ACA ctually does Gruber might be justified in his perception of the voting public.

That doesn't change the fact that he is talking out of his ass and that the news media looks pretty stupid for claiming that what he says is true even though they spend over a year covering everything they apparently didn't know about now.
   
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I heard somewhere that he is also involved with this immigration stuff that Obama is going to do.
   
 
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