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2014/11/20 16:38:21
Subject: Re:Transporting a full Meganob squad. Scratch build to avoid emergency disembark penalty, cheating?
col_impact wrote: Things I learned today. I can deploy my jump units, jet pack units, or skimmers directly on top of each other.
No you can not, the rules tell you to deploy in a deployment zone.
"Deployment Zones
Once the armies are chosen, the areas where they can be set up, or rather deployed, must
be decided. If you are using a mission, it will have a deployment map that will show you
each player’s deployment zone." (Preparing for battle chapter, Deployment Zones section).
On top of another model is not in the areas where they can be set up.
One model on top of another model in a deployment zone will still both be in a deployment zone. Anyway its not something I would do, only something that I could do in the rules.
Incorrect, the rules are written assuming you are moving and deploying on the battlefield which is terrain.
"The battlefield over which your game is played must be set up before the game begins.This step is split into two parts: creating the battlefield itself, and placing scenery upon it."(Preparing for battle chapter, The Battlefield section).
"The battlefield is usually a flat surface on which scenery models are placed and over which the armies fight."(Preparing for battle chapter, The field of War section).
"The battlefield is considered to be ‘open ground’ for all rules purposes."(Preparing for battle chapter, The field of War section).
You need to polish up on what is considered to be a Deployment Zone. I can put a model on top of another model and still be "12 inches away from the centerline"
And you need to polish up on the fact that vehicles are deployed in terrain.
On top of another model is not terrain and not a legal deployment.
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
2014/11/20 16:46:57
Subject: Re:Transporting a full Meganob squad. Scratch build to avoid emergency disembark penalty, cheating?
Lord Scythican wrote: This still doesn't satisfy the people saying they have to be wholly within the template. And this is still coming up with something not in the rules to handle this situation. I like the method personally, but the whole thing needs a FAQ.
Nothing will satisfy those people. They are making up rules that they think should apply.
Very true!
2014/11/20 17:11:58
Subject: Re:Transporting a full Meganob squad. Scratch build to avoid emergency disembark penalty, cheating?
col_impact wrote: Things I learned today. I can deploy my jump units, jet pack units, or skimmers directly on top of each other.
No you can not, the rules tell you to deploy in a deployment zone.
"Deployment Zones
Once the armies are chosen, the areas where they can be set up, or rather deployed, must
be decided. If you are using a mission, it will have a deployment map that will show you
each player’s deployment zone." (Preparing for battle chapter, Deployment Zones section).
On top of another model is not in the areas where they can be set up.
One model on top of another model in a deployment zone will still both be in a deployment zone. Anyway its not something I would do, only something that I could do in the rules.
Incorrect, the rules are written assuming you are moving and deploying on the battlefield which is terrain.
"The battlefield over which your game is played must be set up before the game begins.This step is split into two parts: creating the battlefield itself, and placing scenery upon it."(Preparing for battle chapter, The Battlefield section).
"The battlefield is usually a flat surface on which scenery models are placed and over which the armies fight."(Preparing for battle chapter, The field of War section).
"The battlefield is considered to be ‘open ground’ for all rules purposes."(Preparing for battle chapter, The field of War section).
You need to polish up on what is considered to be a Deployment Zone. I can put a model on top of another model and still be "12 inches away from the centerline"
And you need to polish up on the fact that vehicles are deployed in terrain.
On top of another model is not terrain and not a legal deployment.
None of the rules you quoted actually restrict me from placing a model on top of another model during deployment. A model on top of another model will still be in a deployment zone.
2014/11/20 17:32:11
Subject: Re:Transporting a full Meganob squad. Scratch build to avoid emergency disembark penalty, cheating?
col_impact wrote: None of the rules you quoted actually restrict me from placing a model on top of another model during deployment. A model on top of another model will still be in a deployment zone.
In a permissive ruleset you have to find a rule stating you can deploy on top of another vehicle.
I have rules shown that you deploy in the terrain of the deployment zone.
Got anything stating you can deploy not in the terrain and instead deploy on top of another vehicle?
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
2014/11/20 17:39:42
Subject: Re:Transporting a full Meganob squad. Scratch build to avoid emergency disembark penalty, cheating?
col_impact wrote: None of the rules you quoted actually restrict me from placing a model on top of another model during deployment. A model on top of another model will still be in a deployment zone.
In a permissive ruleset you have to find a rule stating you can deploy on top of another vehicle.
I have rules shown that you deploy in the terrain of the deployment zone.
Got anything stating you can deploy not in the terrain and instead deploy on top of another vehicle?
You have shown rules that you deploy in a deployment zone.
2014/11/20 18:28:08
Subject: Transporting a full Meganob squad. Scratch build to avoid emergency disembark penalty, cheating?
The simplest most obvious solution seems best. When you have 2 valid RaW interpretations and one is broken whilst the other lines up with the most likely RaI why not play by that?
Place the models so that at least part of them occupies some of the space the vehicle occupied. Then everything works fine and you've broken no rule.
Loborocket wrote: ... I would just not want to be the person forcing someone to remove models because of an overly strict interpretation of the rules.
If you're 'forcing' an opponent to do something based on a vaguely written rule, you're probably approaching the game with the wrong mindset to begin with.
The way I choose to play this is the way I have commonly seen it played for the last 3 editions. It's also, for whatever it's worth to people, the way the INATFAQ ruled it, and so the way various larger tournaments including Adepticon played it.
But outside of a tournament with a specific ruling on it, it's still just how I choose to play it, not RAW. So if I do wind up standing across the table from someone who thinks differently, I'm not going to 'force' them to play my way. That's not going to lead to an enjoyable game for either of us.
2014/11/20 21:09:54
Subject: Re:Transporting a full Meganob squad. Scratch build to avoid emergency disembark penalty, cheating?
col_impact wrote: You have shown rules that you deploy in a deployment zone.
The battlefield = terrain...
"The battlefield over which your game is played must be set up before the game begins. This step is split into two parts: creating the battlefield itself, and placing scenery upon it."
"The battlefield is usually a flat surface on which scenery models are placed and over which the armies fight."
"The battlefield is considered to be ‘open ground’ for all rules purposes."
(Preparing for battle chapter).
"Once the armies are chosen, the areas where they can be set up, or rather deployed, must be decided." (Deployment Zones section)
The areas of what? contextually they are talking about the battlefield.
You deploy in the deployment zone (Of the battlefield) which is terrain.
Ergo you deploy in terrain...
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
2014/11/20 21:19:36
Subject: Re:Transporting a full Meganob squad. Scratch build to avoid emergency disembark penalty, cheating?
col_impact wrote: You have shown rules that you deploy in a deployment zone.
The battlefield = terrain...
"The battlefield over which your game is played must be set up before the game begins. This step is split into two parts: creating the battlefield itself, and placing scenery upon it."
"The battlefield is usually a flat surface on which scenery models are placed and over which the armies fight."
"The battlefield is considered to be ‘open ground’ for all rules purposes."
(Preparing for battle chapter).
"Once the armies are chosen, the areas where they can be set up, or rather deployed, must be decided." (Deployment Zones section)
The areas of what? contextually they are talking about the battlefield.
You deploy in the deployment zone (Of the battlefield) which is terrain.
Ergo you deploy in terrain...
You are reading into it. The "areas where they can be set up" is referring to the Deployment Zones.
None of the rules you quoted actually restrict me from placing a model on top of another model during deployment. A model on top of another model in the Deployment Zone will still be in the Deployment Zone.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/11/20 21:21:19
2014/11/20 21:31:43
Subject: Re:Transporting a full Meganob squad. Scratch build to avoid emergency disembark penalty, cheating?
col_impact wrote: You have shown rules that you deploy in a deployment zone.
The battlefield = terrain...
"The battlefield over which your game is played must be set up before the game begins. This step is split into two parts: creating the battlefield itself, and placing scenery upon it."
"The battlefield is usually a flat surface on which scenery models are placed and over which the armies fight."
"The battlefield is considered to be ‘open ground’ for all rules purposes."
(Preparing for battle chapter).
"Once the armies are chosen, the areas where they can be set up, or rather deployed, must be decided." (Deployment Zones section)
The areas of what? contextually they are talking about the battlefield.
You deploy in the deployment zone (Of the battlefield) which is terrain.
Ergo you deploy in terrain...
You are reading into it. The "areas where they can be set up" is referring to the Deployment Zones.
None of the rules you quoted actually restrict me from placing a model on top of another model during deployment. A model on top of another model in the Deployment Zone will still be in the Deployment Zone.
And the Deployment Zone is an area of the battlefield where models are deployed...
"Once the armies are chosen, the areas where they can be set up, or rather deployed, must be decided" (Preparing for battle chapter, Deployment Zones section). This it talking about the battlefield, since models are set up in an area, and that area is a portion of the battlefield.
Also " If you are not using a published mission, we recommend you simply divide the table in half down its length, and deploy the armies in the opposite halves of the table." (Preparing for battle chapter, Deployment Zones section). you set up models on the table.
A model on top of another model is not legal.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/20 21:34:16
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
2014/11/20 21:42:28
Subject: Re:Transporting a full Meganob squad. Scratch build to avoid emergency disembark penalty, cheating?
col_impact wrote: You have shown rules that you deploy in a deployment zone.
The battlefield = terrain...
"The battlefield over which your game is played must be set up before the game begins. This step is split into two parts: creating the battlefield itself, and placing scenery upon it."
"The battlefield is usually a flat surface on which scenery models are placed and over which the armies fight."
"The battlefield is considered to be ‘open ground’ for all rules purposes."
(Preparing for battle chapter).
"Once the armies are chosen, the areas where they can be set up, or rather deployed, must be decided." (Deployment Zones section)
The areas of what? contextually they are talking about the battlefield.
You deploy in the deployment zone (Of the battlefield) which is terrain.
Ergo you deploy in terrain...
You are reading into it. The "areas where they can be set up" is referring to the Deployment Zones.
None of the rules you quoted actually restrict me from placing a model on top of another model during deployment. A model on top of another model in the Deployment Zone will still be in the Deployment Zone.
And the Deployment Zone is an area of the battlefield where models are deployed...
"Once the armies are chosen, the areas where they can be set up, or rather deployed, must be decided" (Preparing for battle chapter, Deployment Zones section). This it talking about the battlefield, since models are set up in an area, and that area is a portion of the battlefield.
Also " If you are not using a published mission, we recommend you simply divide the table in half down its length, and deploy the armies in the opposite halves of the table." (Preparing for battle chapter, Deployment Zones section). you set up models on the table.
A model on top of another model is not legal.
You are having trouble with basic reading here. You claim that area is referring to battlefield as terrain when the whole rule section does not even mention battlefield. As stated before, you are reading into it. And you are not permitted to read into the rules. And as stated before if I deploy a model on top of another model in my Deployment Zone I have successfully met the criteria for deploying in the Deployment Zone.
Spoiler:
Deployment Zones
Once the armies are chosen, the areas where they can be set up, or rather deployed, must be decided. If you are using a mission, it will have a deployment map that will show you each player’s deployment zone. If you are not using a published mission, we recommend you simply divide the table in half down its length, and deploy the armies in the opposite halves of the table. Alternatively, you could divide the table in half across its width, or diagonally, or use Random Deployment Zones (below).
In addition, it is usual to say that units from the two sides must set up a certain distance away from each other. This is not strictly necessary, but it stops the armies from starting too close together, and allows for a certain amount of manoeuvring at the start of the battle before units can charge each other. The easiest way of achieving this is to say that no unit may set up within a certain distance of the centre line between the two sides’ deployment zones. We’ve found that 12" away from the centre line works best; this ensures that the armies will start at least 24" apart, which makes first turn charges hard to achieve while still giving you enough space on a typical table to deploy your army.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/20 21:46:18
2014/11/20 21:56:56
Subject: Transporting a full Meganob squad. Scratch build to avoid emergency disembark penalty, cheating?
rigeld2 wrote: People (Orks) riding in a transport will be positioned differently than people (Orks) standing in a crater.
20 models ride inside fine. 20 models can't be combat ready in the same square footage fine. This isn't a ludicrous assumption, it's a basic fact.
Best leave real world analogies out as they do not work, particularly in this case.
So it's okay to say "it doesn't make sense to transport 20 and place less than 20!" But not okay to come up with a reason that does in fact make sense?
Cool. So you just don't want to hear arguments to the contrary then. Have fun.
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
2014/11/20 22:25:09
Subject: Transporting a full Meganob squad. Scratch build to avoid emergency disembark penalty, cheating?
Not at all. The deployment zone is a portion of the battlefield where you deploy your army.
You claim that area is referring to battlefield as terrain when the whole rule section does not even mention battlefield.
Once the armies are chosen, the areas where they can be set up, or rather deployed, must be decided.
The area of what? The area of the battlefield where the armies can be set up...
"THE BATTLEFIELD The battlefield over which your game is played must be set up before the game begins."
"The Field of War The battlefield is usually a flat surface on which scenery models are placed and over which the armies fight."
(Both quotes from the Preparing for Battle chapter).
Note "THE BATTLEFIELD" is the section that "The Field of War" and "Deployment Zones" fall under.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/20 22:28:18
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
2014/11/20 22:35:42
Subject: Re:Transporting a full Meganob squad. Scratch build to avoid emergency disembark penalty, cheating?
Not at all. The deployment zone is a portion of the battlefield where you deploy your army.
You claim that area is referring to battlefield as terrain when the whole rule section does not even mention battlefield.
Once the armies are chosen, the areas where they can be set up, or rather deployed, must be decided.
The area of what? The area of the battlefield where the armies can be set up...
"THE BATTLEFIELD
The battlefield over which your game is played must be set up before the game begins."
"The Field of War
The battlefield is usually a flat surface on which scenery models are placed and over which the armies fight."
(Both quotes from the Preparing for Battle chapter).
Note "THE BATTLEFIELD" is the section that "The Field of War" and "Deployment Zones" fall under.
I understand that you are trying to cobble together some restriction. However, the only actual specification that the rules have is that I put the model in the Deployment Zone. Anyway, this is just a loophole in the rules. It's not like I am advocating anyone play according to this loophole.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/11/20 23:16:32
2014/11/21 01:31:34
Subject: Re:Transporting a full Meganob squad. Scratch build to avoid emergency disembark penalty, cheating?
col_impact wrote: I understand that you are trying to cobble together some restriction. However, the only actual specification that the rules have is that I put the model in the Deployment Zone. Anyway, this is just a loophole in the rules. It's not like I am advocating anyone play according to this loophole.
If you do not ignore the context you will understand the rules.
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
2014/11/21 01:35:06
Subject: Re:Transporting a full Meganob squad. Scratch build to avoid emergency disembark penalty, cheating?
col_impact wrote: I understand that you are trying to cobble together some restriction. However, the only actual specification that the rules have is that I put the model in the Deployment Zone. Anyway, this is just a loophole in the rules. It's not like I am advocating anyone play according to this loophole.
If you do not ignore the context you will understand the rules.
As stated, the only actual specification that the rules have is that I put the model in the Deployment Zone.
2014/11/21 02:25:09
Subject: Transporting a full Meganob squad. Scratch build to avoid emergency disembark penalty, cheating?
rigeld2 wrote: People (Orks) riding in a transport will be positioned differently than people (Orks) standing in a crater.
20 models ride inside fine. 20 models can't be combat ready in the same square footage fine. This isn't a ludicrous assumption, it's a basic fact.
Best leave real world analogies out as they do not work, particularly in this case.
So it's okay to say "it doesn't make sense to transport 20 and place less than 20!" But not okay to come up with a reason that does in fact make sense?
Cool. So you just don't want to hear arguments to the contrary then. Have fun.
Yes, because 20 men riding take up far more room than 20 "combat ready". Your example is poor.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/21 02:25:35
2014/11/21 02:44:16
Subject: Transporting a full Meganob squad. Scratch build to avoid emergency disembark penalty, cheating?
rigeld2 wrote: People (Orks) riding in a transport will be positioned differently than people (Orks) standing in a crater.
20 models ride inside fine. 20 models can't be combat ready in the same square footage fine. This isn't a ludicrous assumption, it's a basic fact.
Best leave real world analogies out as they do not work, particularly in this case.
So it's okay to say "it doesn't make sense to transport 20 and place less than 20!" But not okay to come up with a reason that does in fact make sense?
Cool. So you just don't want to hear arguments to the contrary then. Have fun.
Yes, because 20 men riding take up far more room than 20 "combat ready". Your example is poor.
RAW interpretation A: 3 out of 6 Meganobs auto-die when the Trukk explodes.
RAW interpretation B: 6 out of 6 Meganobs are placed where the Trukk explodes.
2014/11/21 03:02:50
Subject: Transporting a full Meganob squad. Scratch build to avoid emergency disembark penalty, cheating?
rigeld2 wrote: People (Orks) riding in a transport will be positioned differently than people (Orks) standing in a crater.
20 models ride inside fine. 20 models can't be combat ready in the same square footage fine. This isn't a ludicrous assumption, it's a basic fact.
Best leave real world analogies out as they do not work, particularly in this case.
So it's okay to say "it doesn't make sense to transport 20 and place less than 20!" But not okay to come up with a reason that does in fact make sense?
Cool. So you just don't want to hear arguments to the contrary then. Have fun.
Yes, because 20 men riding take up far more room than 20 "combat ready". Your example is poor.
Yes, they do. It takes far more room to stand with a rifle/gun at the ready, scanning the battlefield, moving around, etc. than it does to sit in a chair.
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
2014/11/21 03:12:14
Subject: Transporting a full Meganob squad. Scratch build to avoid emergency disembark penalty, cheating?
No one's even mentioned the twisted, burning wreckage of the transport that the model's were embarked upon just mere moments ago. Did it just evaporate in a green glow like in the classic 1953 film The War of the Worlds?
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
2014/11/21 03:14:44
Subject: Transporting a full Meganob squad. Scratch build to avoid emergency disembark penalty, cheating?
Ghaz wrote: No one's even mentioned the twisted, burning wreckage of the transport that the model's were embarked upon just mere moments ago. Did it just evaporate in a green glow like in the classic 1953 film The War of the Worlds?
Explodes is lethal enough. Do we really need mini blackholes in there too popping models out of existence?
2014/11/21 03:24:01
Subject: Transporting a full Meganob squad. Scratch build to avoid emergency disembark penalty, cheating?
Perhaps the twisted, burning wreckage is the reason that 20 models that fit in the vehicle can't fit where the vehicle was. Because there was no mini black hole to pop the wreckage out of the way.
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
2014/11/21 03:27:22
Subject: Transporting a full Meganob squad. Scratch build to avoid emergency disembark penalty, cheating?
rigeld2 wrote: Nonononono the only reason that 20 models can't disembark is jerks that want to actually play by the rules.
We are playing by the rules. There is no GW set procedure here. All of us are necessarily implementing an interpretation of RAW. However, my interpretation is better than yours since it doesn't foster an unfair gaming environment for Orks and Dark Eldar.
2014/11/21 04:52:15
Subject: Transporting a full Meganob squad. Scratch build to avoid emergency disembark penalty, cheating?
rigeld2 wrote: Nonononono the only reason that 20 models can't disembark is jerks that want to actually play by the rules.
We are playing by the rules. There is no GW set procedure here. All of us are necessarily implementing an interpretation of RAW. However, my interpretation is better than yours since it doesn't foster an unfair gaming environment for Orks and Dark Eldar.
"Better" is subjective.
And it's not "unfair". What makes you think this disadvantage isn't built into the cost of the Transport?
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
2014/11/21 05:07:19
Subject: Transporting a full Meganob squad. Scratch build to avoid emergency disembark penalty, cheating?
rigeld2 wrote: Nonononono the only reason that 20 models can't disembark is jerks that want to actually play by the rules.
We are playing by the rules. There is no GW set procedure here. All of us are necessarily implementing an interpretation of RAW. However, my interpretation is better than yours since it doesn't foster an unfair gaming environment for Orks and Dark Eldar.
"Better" is subjective.
And it's not "unfair". What makes you think this disadvantage isn't built into the cost of the Transport?
GW for better or worse left it as an open issue and open for interpretation. I am not going to choose to play it out in the meanest way possible. I am going to choose to play it out in the most equitable way possible. You can make your own choice.
2014/11/21 05:16:27
Subject: Transporting a full Meganob squad. Scratch build to avoid emergency disembark penalty, cheating?
