Cronos and Nightmare Doll

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**Jimsolo**

Do they stack? The Cronos gives a +1 to FNP rolls, to a maximum of 4+, and the Doll gives a +1 with no cap. Can you take a haemonculis with normal 5+ FNP, apply the Cronos' buff first, then apply the Doll for a 3+?

**Eihnlazer**

The chronos clearly says to a maximum of 4+.

That means no matter what order you apply the bonus, if the FNP is better than 4+ you broke a rule.

Its the same as the tzeench invun save bonus.

You cannot apply the bonus (at all, ever) if the final roll would be better than the stated amount.

**Jimsolo**

Here's the argument as it was made to me:

It works because the Cronos improves it to a 4+ , but the Nightmare doll doesn't improve it to a 3+ it just adds to your actual roll you make.

Cronos says "The model, and all friendly units with both the Dark Eldar Faction and the Feel No Pain special rule within 6" of one or more models with a spirit probe, receive a +1 bonus to their Feel No Pain (e.g. Feel No Pain would become Feel No Pain (4+). This is cumulative with any other modifiers to Feel No Pain, but cannot improve their Feel No Pain beyond 4+"

Nightmare doll says "The bearer of the Nightmare Doll adds 1 to any Feel No Pain rolls he makes. "

The Haemonoculus doesn't actually have a 3+ feel no pain, he has a 4+ , but if he rolls a 3, he adds one.

Just curious if my opinionis the minority one.

**Hollismason**

One is a constant effect, one happens only when you roll.

The Nightmare doll doesn't add +1 and it is not a modifier to the FNP, it's adding to the roll.

Otherwise it'd say " Adds +1 to FNP pain "

It specifically is worded in such a curious way as to state add one to the result of a roll.

Semantically they seem similar but they're actually not.

The bearer of the Nightmare Doll adds 1 to any Feel No Pain rolls he makes. Furthermore, the Nightmare Doll automatically negates the first unsaved Wound with the Instant Death special rule that the bearer suffers, though as soon as it does so, the Nightmare Doll will immediately cease to work for the rest of the battle.

And the Spirit probe

The model, and all friendly units with both the Dark Eldar Faction and the Feel No Pain special rule within 6" of one or more models with a spirit probe, receive a +1 bonus to their Feel No Pain (e.g. Feel No Pain would become Feel No Pain (4+). This is cumulative with any other modifiers to Feel No Pain, but cannot improve their Feel No Pain beyond 4+

Spirit Probe is specifically word so that it itself cannot improve the save beyond 4+ to prevent itself from stacking with other Spirit Probes, but it doesn't prevent something else from doing it.

**FlingitNow**

Yeah this works Spirit Probe improves the roll to succeed a FnP to a maximum 4+. Nightmare Doll adds to the roll such that a 3 becomes a 4 and thus passes.

**blaktoof**

For the same reason you cannot make MoT give better than 3++ you can not get better than 4+ FnP, because part of the rule you gain with one of the FnP increases comes with the restriction of "maximum of 4+"

a rolling a 3 and saying you passed because you have +1 is not a max of 4+, because you did not roll a 4+.

**FlingitNow**

Check page 11 modifying dice rolls. If I roll a d6+1 as I am with the Nightmare Doll and the die shows a "3" I have rolled a 4. Therefore I have succeeded in the 4+ roll and not broken the limit at 4+.

**morgoth**

Jimsolo wrote:
Here's the argument as it was made to me:

It works because the Cronos improves it to a 4+ , but the Nightmare doll doesn't improve it to a 3+ it just adds to your actual roll you make.

Cronos says "The model, and all friendly units with both the Dark Eldar Faction and the Feel No Pain special rule within 6" of one or more models with a spirit probe, receive a +1 bonus to their Feel No Pain (e.g. Feel No Pain would become Feel No Pain (4+). This is cumulative with any other modifiers to Feel No Pain, but cannot improve their Feel No Pain beyond 4+"

Nightmare doll says "The bearer of the Nightmare Doll adds 1 to any Feel No Pain rolls he makes. "

The Haemonoculus doesn't actually have a 3+ feel no pain, he has a 4+ , but if he rolls a 3, he adds one.

Just curious if my opinionis the minority one.

That sounds correct to me. He has a 4+ Feel No Pain, and a +1 modifier to rolls.

Just like my Wave Serpents enter play on a 3+ Reserve roll and a +1 modifier to reserve rolls thanks to the Autarch.

**blaktoof**

FlingitNow wrote:
Check page 11 modifying dice rolls. If I roll a d6+1 as I am with the Nightmare Doll and the die shows a "3" I have rolled a 4. Therefore I have succeeded in the 4+ roll and not broken the limit at 4+.

after checking p.11 what you say as the nightmare bonus says to add to the die roll, I was falsely assuming it improved FnP itself as a modifier, and did not consider it modified the dice roll.

**JinxDragon**

Blaktoof,
It is an understandable mistake though, Game Workshop switches between modifying the "Save" and modifying the Dice Roll quite often.
To make it all that much more difficult to figure out which is which, often 'Saving Throw' (the roll) and 'Save Characteristic' (the value tested against) will both be called 'saves....'

**FlingitNow**

Yeah as Jinx says it appears this is intentionally worded to modify the roll to get around that 4+ limit. But it can leads to situations in 6th for instance where a Weave wearing Overlord on CCB had a 2+ save taken on a d6+1 so was immortal to non-ap2 attacks.

**JinxDragon**

FlingItNow,
6th Edition had a Rule stating that a natural 1 was always a failure, at least in relation to Saving Throws, regardless of modifications to the roll itself.

**FlingitNow**

Nope it said roll of a 1 not natural 1. That was there until 5th then disappeared.

**Hollismason**

I also find this to be RAI, the wording of Nightmare doll is so specifically worded as to actually allow it that I really can't see it being a mistake as someone would have to go out of their way in order to write it that way instead of just saying " Adds +1 to FNP"

**FlingitNow**

Hollismason wrote:
I also find this to be RAI, the wording of Nightmare doll is so specifically worded as to actually allow it that I really can't see it being a mistake as someone would have to go out of their way in order to write it that way instead of just saying " Adds +1 to FNP"

My thoughts exactly they seem to go out of their way to say it is a modifier to the dice roll rather than the success number.

**JinxDragon**

It is going to take time before I can review the 6th and 7th Edition version of the Rules I am thinking of, so I will simply ask:
Did it not mention something about applying modifications?

That is why I used the word natural, cause I was talking about the unmodified Value.

**FlingitNow**

Nope it just said 1. I remember this because it was one of the YMDC debates of the time.

**JinxDragon**

I'll put it on the list of things to review but at this point I have one thing to ask:
Game Workshop, pick a method and stick to it and only it!

**FlingitNow**

Yeah wait for them to figure out the difference between models and units first...

**JinxDragon**

FlingitNow,
I am convinced they know that particular difference, it is just a twisted and cruel joke that they keep misusing them simply to laugh at us Rule Lawyers....

**Jimsolo**

Well if other people are in agreement that it works that way, I'm certainly not going to argue.

**FlingitNow**

JinxDragon wrote:
FlingitNow,
I am convinced they know that particular difference, it is just a twisted and cruel joke that they keep misusing them simply to laugh at us Rule Lawyers....

Just so many rules that alter how an action interacts with a unit based on model properties and vice versa that cause so many problems (Destroyer Weapons, Preferred Enemy, Grav Weapons, THE ENTIRE PSYCHIC PHASE MESS etc).

Please GW design team please just learn what you mean by units and models is that too much to ask?

**JinxDragon**

Agreed.
Their misuse of Model-Unit is costing me a lot on wall replacement and medical bills.
I might need thicker padding on my friendly head-banging spot....