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HI all,

Last night at our club we had an instance were, a land raider sufferd a crew shaken result. This ment he could only fire snap shots. But with power machine spirit, we were all unsure weather this atill allowed him to fire one weapon at full Bs. We decided in the end to let him as the rule stated, can fire one weapon at full ballastic than is normally permited.

I just wondered what others thought about it and how they would play it.

Thanks.

One more weapon at BS than normal. 0 + 1 = 1

Restriction trumps Permission ?

First, he gets to fire one more weapon at full BS, then he only gets to fire snap shots.

The Snap-Fire rules (p32-33) state that only special abilities that specifically mention modifying snap-shots can do so. PotMS does not mention snap-shots, therefore it is not allowed to.

Hanskrampf's math can work on a vehicle moving 6" (1 weapon normally, plus one from PotMS) but not on one moving 12" (the vehicle can "only make snap shots" (p73), making any non-snap-shot shots breaks that rule). Some people will disagree with that interpretation though.

Personally, I believe that the RAI is that it should be able to modify snap shots, but that's just a HIWPI. RAW it cannot and is only useful for shooting at a different target.

 Quanar wrote:

Hanskrampf's math can work on a vehicle moving 6" (1 weapon normally, plus one from PotMS) but not on one moving 12" (the vehicle can "only make snap shots" (p73), making any non-snap-shot shots breaks that rule). Some people will disagree with that interpretation though.

No, following your interpretation, it's not even allowed to fire at full BS when moving 6". Because that again, would make a Snap Shot a normal shot. So this rule would be reduced to: "Fire at a different target with one weapon".

 Quanar wrote:

Personally, I believe that the RAI is that it should be able to modify snap shots, but that's just a HIWPI. RAW it cannot and is only useful for shooting at a different target.

It doesn't modify Snap Shots. It just let's you shoot one more weapon than normally allowed at full BS at a different target. Therefore, it doesn't need permission to modify Snap Shots.

Quanar,
Power of the Machine Spirit does not modify Snap Shots at all, it makes no mention of doing so, but it does by-passes the entire situation. By addressing the process we use to calculate the number of Shots a Vehicle can fire, what we normally use to determine how many Weapons can be fired at Full Ballistic Score and how many are fired as Snap Shots, it is possible to switch some of those weapons from Snap Shot to Full Ballistic Score. However, as it addresses the process used to determine the number of Shots fired at Full / Snap, it does not grant permission to over-turn a 'All shots must be Snap Shot' restriction.

Page 73 - Moving and Shooting with Vehicles, last bullet point:

A vehicle that moved at Cruising Speed can only make Snap Shots, as above.

(Emphasis theirs).
Page 76 - Vehicle Damage Table, Crew Shaken:

Crew Shaken [...Fluff...] The vehicle can only fire Snap Shots until the end of it's next turn.

Page 84- Flyers, Hard to Hit:

Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots [...]

Obviously I must be spectacularly missing the difference between these rules so that PotMS isn't the go-to answer to Flyers.

When moving at Combat Speed, a vehicle can fire one weapon at full ballistic, which PotMS can increase to two. But I see a difference between saying "Cruising speed = 0 weapons at BS" and "Cruising speed = blanket restriction to only fire snap shots".

 Quanar wrote:
Page 73 - Moving and Shooting with Vehicles, last bullet point:

A vehicle that moved at Cruising Speed can only make Snap Shots, as above.

(Emphasis theirs).
Page 76 - Vehicle Damage Table, Crew Shaken:

Crew Shaken [...Fluff...] The vehicle can only fire Snap Shots until the end of it's next turn.

Page 84- Flyers, Hard to Hit:

Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots [...]

Obviously I must be spectacularly missing the difference between these rules so that PotMS isn't the go-to answer to Flyers.

Finding a difference between those 3 rules would have to be a huge stretch... I think Quanar has a pretty well-based position here.
I shall remember this as i used to also believe "PotMS gives 0+1 Full ballistic skill shots".

Fluff-wise though, "Machine spirit" is an advanced AI targeting system (lost technology). Assuming this can target and hit flyers properly would not be a surprise to me.
I mean Crew-manned Quad Gun Vs AI targetting system? I know which one is better :p

 Quanar wrote:

Page 84- Flyers, Hard to Hit:

Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots [...]

That's the difference right there and why PotMS doesn't work against flyers. You're not firing Snap Shots at a flyer, but all shots against this target are resolved as Snap Shots. Which means, the shot from PotMS is still a normal shot, but resolved as a Snap Shot.

The other quoted rules are: only Snap Shots, but PotMS allows a normal shot. So 0+1=1.

BlackTalos,
As do I... without a specific upgrade the Ballistic Score of an automatic System is 1.

Hanskrampf wrote:
That's the difference right there and why PotMS doesn't work against flyers. You're not firing Snap Shots at a flyer, but all shots against this target are resolved as Snap Shots. Which means, the shot from PotMS is still a normal shot, but resolved as a Snap Shot.

The other quoted rules are: only Snap Shots, but PotMS allows a normal shot. So 0+1=1.

I still fail to see the difference between something that is "resolved as" and something that "is". It's drawing a line between that is a Boltgun and something that "counts as a Boltgun". What is the difference between a shooting attack that is a Boltgun versus one that is "resolved" as a Boltgun? If there is any difference, then you are not resolving the shot in the same way as a Boltgun.

Your interpretation also allows firing a weapon with PotMS after Jinking, when targeting an Invisible unit, probably Deathleaper too (anyone got the wording on that?), but not at Flyers / FMCs because it adds the word "resolved"? Sorry, but I'm still not convinced - all shooting attacks are resolved (page 30 - Select a Weapon, first sentence), but against Flyers it's somehow more resolved?

I've made my point, and you've made yours. Neither, I suspect, will convert the other, and anyone reading the thread will side with whomever they desire. Good day to you, sir.

This seams to have strayed a little from the original queston, granted the subject needs more attention but we are talking about POTMS when dealing with vehcile damage here guys.

So as POTMS allows you to fire one weapon at full BS than is normally permited, could you fire one weapon at full BS (ignore the target) when your vehicle has sufferd a crew stunned/shaken result?

I belive yes.

Regardless of the target, obviously if its at a flyer its snap shooting either way.

Restriction trumps Permission.

First, he gets to fire one more weapon at full BS, then he only gets to fire snap shots.

If POTMS was specifically mentioning that it could override the restriction to fire snap shots, then it would work. But it doesn't.

 Godeth wrote:
This seams to have strayed a little from the original queston, granted the subject needs more attention but we are talking about POTMS when dealing with vehcile damage here guys.

So as POTMS allows you to fire one weapon at full BS than is normally permited, could you fire one weapon at full BS (ignore the target) when your vehicle has sufferd a crew stunned/shaken result?

I belive yes.

Regardless of the target, obviously if its at a flyer its snap shooting either way.

Incorrect, just have a look at the post by Quanar above.

If you are Crew Shaken, you are forced to Snap Shoot.
If you are aiming at Flyers, you are forced to Snap Shoot.

When using the POTMS rule, how can you modify one of the statement above and not the other?
Consistency, please.

 BlackTalos wrote:

If you are Crew Shaken, you are forced to Snap Shoot.
If you are aiming at Flyers, you are forced to Snap Shoot.

Crew Shaken, only Snap Shots. PotMS allows one normal shot.
Flyers: normal shots, resolved as Snap Shots.

Hanskrampf wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

If you are Crew Shaken, you are forced to Snap Shoot.
If you are aiming at Flyers, you are forced to Snap Shoot.

Crew Shaken, only Snap Shots. PotMS allows one normal shot.
Flyers: normal shots, resolved as Snap Shots.

Invisibility? "enemy units can only fire Snap Shots"
PotMS allows one normal shot at Invisible Units?

Jink? "they can only fire Snap Shots until the end of their next turn"
PotMS allows one normal shot if you Jinked?

Ram? "This means that it, and any embarked troops, may only shoot Snap Shots in that turn’s Shooting phase"
PotMS allows one normal shot if you are Ramming?

Overwatch? "Any shots fired as Overwatch can only be fired as Snap Shots."
PotMS allows one normal shot if you are shooting Overwatch?

None of the above contain the word "resolved", so you agree that they all work?

this was in my game! so here is what went down:

my Pred scored a Pen hit against my opponenet LR and inflicted Crew shaken/Stunned (all weapons snap fire until end of opponenets turn) He then tried to fire his assault cannon saying the POTMS allowed this. Godeth made a quick ruling so the game could continue.

i questioned this afterwards saying how can POTMS over rule damage inflicted? the POTMS only relates to moving flat out and when smoke is fired! not when the vehicle is hit/damaged.

PotMS allows 1 more weapon than normally permitted. It is incorrect to use "0+1" for Crew Shaken or similar effects. The rules state "all" or "can only". This makes them values in two different systems, such as adding 1 to a. Doesn't really work.

So, by RAW, PotMS doesn't work for Cruising Speed, Flyers, Crew Shaken or any similar rules. HOWEVER, and this is where the "difference" that some posters have questioned comes in, the paragraphs in the Vehicles section are not the entirety of the rules governing the speed of a vehicle and number of weapons fired. In the reference section, there is a chart discussing Vehicles and shooting. It is there that we are given a quantitative value for the number of weapons that can be fired, i.e. 1 or 0. Therefore, the PotMS can be added, thus affecting the number of weapons fired at full BS. There are no such tables for Crew Shaken, Flyers, Jink, etc.

If the reading as proposed by some is that "can fire one more weapon at its full Ballistic Skill than normally permitted" is sufficient to override rules other than speed, then "Fast" would be sufficient to override the same things so long as the vehicle moved at cruising speed.

*Fast: "Fast vehicles that moved at Cruising speed can fire up to two weapons using their full Ballistic Skill."

Angelic wrote:

If the reading as proposed by some is that "can fire one more weapon at its full Ballistic Skill than normally permitted" is sufficient to override rules other than speed, then "Fast" would be sufficient to override the same things so long as the vehicle moved at cruising speed.

No, because it's clearly defined how much weapons can be fired at Combat and at Cruising Speed. (p88, BRB), while PotMS states that "[...] the vehicle can fire one more weapon at its full Ballistic Skill than normally permitted. [...]". If none is permitted, PotMS allows one shot at full BS more than none.

 BlackTalos wrote:

Invisibility? "enemy units can only fire Snap Shots"
PotMS allows one normal shot at Invisible Units?

Not sure about this, as it's independent from the vehicle with PotMS.

 BlackTalos wrote:

Jink? "they can only fire Snap Shots until the end of their next turn"
PotMS allows one normal shot if you Jinked?

Yes.

 BlackTalos wrote:

Ram? "This means that it, and any embarked troops, may only shoot Snap Shots in that turn’s Shooting phase"
PotMS allows one normal shot if you are Ramming?

Yes.

 BlackTalos wrote:

Overwatch? "Any shots fired as Overwatch can only be fired as Snap Shots."
PotMS allows one normal shot if you are shooting Overwatch?

(p78, BRBR) [...] vehicles cannot make Overwatch fire [...]

going off track again! can POTMS over ride Crew Shaken/Crew Stunned Which makes the Vehicle fire snap shots?

If POTMS cannot overide these various things, whtas the point of it. It seems to me that the bonus is there for a reason.
The Landraider is ment to be biggest and best armour that the Space Marines can field. Surley as its the spirit of the vehicle NOT the crew, it would allow this. After all crew shaken says that crew have been shaken around inside the vehilce, cuasing them to be bit fuzzy and not function correctly.

POTMS is the vehilce doing the work not the crew?

 adeptus ludus wrote:
going off track again! can POTMS over ride Crew Shaken/Crew Stunned Which makes the Vehicle fire snap shots?

I'll stick to my statement, that if only Snap Shots are permitted, but PotMS let's you fire one more weapon using full BS than normally permitted, you can exactly do that.

Hanskrampf wrote:

 adeptus ludus wrote:
going off track again! can POTMS over ride Crew Shaken/Crew Stunned Which makes the Vehicle fire snap shots?

I'll stick to my statement, that if only Snap Shots are permitted, but PotMS let's you fire one more weapon using full BS than normally permitted, you can exactly do that.

Seconded

 Hanskrampf wrote:

Angelic wrote:

If the reading as proposed by some is that "can fire one more weapon at its full Ballistic Skill than normally permitted" is sufficient to override rules other than speed, then "Fast" would be sufficient to override the same things so long as the vehicle moved at cruising speed.

No, because it's clearly defined how much weapons can be fired at Combat and at Cruising Speed. (p88, BRB), while PotMS states that "[...] the vehicle can fire one more weapon at its full Ballistic Skill than normally permitted. [...]". If none is permitted, PotMS allows one shot at full BS more than none.

Normally permitted reads like POTMS is X + 1 at full BS. Firing none at full BS as the result of special rules is not what is 'Normally permitted'.

You have these rules;

You can fire 4 weapons at full BS (Basic)
You can fire 1 more weapon at full BS (SR)
You can only fire snap shots (SR)

How do you decide how they are played? What rules basis are you providing for doing the maths that way?
I mean, when we can say Restrictions override permissions is there actually any rules basis for POTMS overriding the restriction ? We can see it would override the movement rules in regards to how many can be fired at Full and how many have to snap shot because those are basic rules, but finding a way to override a restriction which is on the same 'level' is much harder.

How is Crew Shaken a special rule? It's in the basic ruleset for vehicles.

 Hanskrampf wrote:
How is Crew Shaken a special rule? It's in the basic ruleset for vehicles.

Ok context, that was written with Jink in mind

 Nem wrote:

How do you decide how they are played? What rules basis are you providing for doing the maths that way?.

Might be worth point out that GW doesn't really give a damn about proper order of operations. For example, characteristic tests break order of operations (multiply then add).

 DanielBeaver wrote:

 Nem wrote:

How do you decide how they are played? What rules basis are you providing for doing the maths that way?.

Might be worth point out that GW doesn't really give a damn about proper order of operations. For example, characteristic tests break order of operations (multiply then add).

The modifiers section in this regard would be a bit dodgy anyway, but in fact the ORR on characteristic modifications are Multiply, then add / subtract then apply any set values.

Multiple Modifiers
If a model has a combination of rules or wargear that modify a characteristic, first apply
any multipliers, then apply any additions or subtractions, and finally apply any set values.

BS is a characteristic, and a snap shot is a set value, snap shots are quite a restrictive rule;

Snap Shots
Under specific circumstances, models must fire Snap Shots.... If a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than
shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of
those shots....
The Ballistic Skill of a model firing a Snap Shot can only be modified by special rules that
specifically state that they affect Snap Shots.... If a special
rule doesn’t specifically state that it affects Snap Shots, then the Snap Shot is resolved at
Ballistic Skill 1.

Pair that with the rules of Jink

start of their next Movement phase, but they can only fire Snap Shots until the end of their next turn.

But even so with the rules for applying modifications there is a much more worrisome problem with the conflict in the rules. Quite simple not all these rules can be fulfilled,
you have 2 advanced rules (im still going with jink here..)

You can fire 1 more weapon at full BS.
You can only fire snap shots.

Its impossible to fire 1 more weapon at full BS if you can only fire snap shots, you also can't modify those snap shots.... however..

Its less clear cut with its interactions with the basic rules for vehicles movement speed also. As snap shots state you can not change the BS without the rule specifying it effects snap shots, not even special rules.

This all gets a bit muddled, IMO, the intention of the rule and how much it effects isn't clear, and technically it doesn't work well RAW wise. If I was playing it / playing against it I would be looking at a compromise.

Its less clear cut with its interactions with the basic rules for vehicles movement speed also. As snap shots state you can not change the BS without the rule specifying it effects snap shots, not even special rules.

That's my hangup as well, and I haven't really seen a satisfactory answer in this thread. Clearly Jink and Crew Shaken seem to screw up POTMS (since they're a global "everything snap-shoots"). And clearly the rule works for combat sqeed, since you get the 1+1=2. But for cruising speed... the wording seems closer to how the Jink rules are worded than how Combat Speed is worded, so there seems to be an argument to made that it's a 1 + none = none rather than 1 + 0 = 1

As a regular user of Land Raiders, I would love to be able to move 12" and still fire my AC or MM at full BS.

We've had this discussion in my gaming group as well. They also brought up the wording of speed based restrictions and Shaken/Jink/Flyers, et. al. RAW on PotMS is that it doesn't do anything other than a pseudo split fire unless there are no effects other than the vehicle moved at combat speed. We decided to make an "intent" based ruling to allow PotMS to override "cruising speed" only.