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... but what actual use in that scenario is Murderfang? You could accomplish the same mission goal with any other Dread. Or with another squad of Vets.

 Psienesis wrote:
... but what actual use in that scenario is Murderfang? You could accomplish the same mission goal with any other Dread. Or with another squad of Vets.

Because you like the model and/or find him fun to play.

Not the point or purpose of the conversation.

You already answered it for yourself Psienesis...

You could accomplish the same mission goal with any other Dread. Or with another squad of Vets.

He performs the same role as another dread or squad of vets. It is at a higher point cost but as anpu said, people would run him because they like the model, not because they expect him to win a tournament for them.

The point of the conversation is to find out why you would field Murderfang, what his "use" is. If you can do the same (or better) with a cheaper unit, then Murderfang is not worth his points cost.

That's the premise of the thread, basically. Murderfang isn't worth the points-cost for what he provides and how he performs. Some disagree, so we're trying to establish (or disprove) scenarios that counter the common opinion that the unit is sub-par.

He is easily worth his points if he can engage a target in melee, the key is getting him safely into combat.

The strategy I told you about is what my friend uses, and I have seen Murderfang destroy well over 800 points worth of models just by being able to enter combat with a priority target and continue to do so unmolested due to the volume of targets around him.

Murderfang isn't just a dread, it's a killing machine that is not any more difficult to kill than a regular dread.

For his points cost it has great value, the key is tapping that value appropriately on the field.

I'm sorry but any opponent that lets a dread kill 800 points of models is probably not very good at the game and could've been beaten with any list. They aren't difficult to blow up and no matter how many targets you throw at me, I'm going to make damn sure Murderfang is one of the first ones to go down before he can assault me and start chewing through whole units.

Toofast wrote:
I'm sorry but any opponent that lets a dread kill 800 points of models is probably not very good at the game and could've been beaten with any list. They aren't difficult to blow up and no matter how many targets you throw at me, I'm going to make damn sure Murderfang is one of the first ones to go down before he can assault me and start chewing through whole units.

So you have never had a game where everything went right [or bad].

I once had a game where a Dread Knight wracked up 11 VPs by himself because my opponent could not hit me well, when he did hit me he mostly tanked hit Wound Roll and those he did Wound me with I made my save against.
Did that make my opponent bad with a bad list, no, it was just the way the dice gods decided that was how it was going to be that day.

Recently in a Game I had a bunch of faulty Las-Cannons, I never made a singe Pen Roll vs AV11 Vehicles.

Sometimes all the firepower in the world will not help no matter how good they are.

That could have been one of those Fluke things like that.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Toofast wrote:
I'm sorry but any opponent that lets a dread kill 800 points of models is probably not very good at the game and could've been beaten with any list. They aren't difficult to blow up and no matter how many targets you throw at me, I'm going to make damn sure Murderfang is one of the first ones to go down before he can assault me and start chewing through whole units.

So you have never had a game where everything went right [or bad].

I once had a game where a Dread Knight wracked up 11 VPs by himself because my opponent could not hit me well, when he did hit me he mostly tanked hit Wound Roll and those he did Wound me with I made my save against.
Did that make my opponent bad with a bad list, no, it was just the way the dice gods decided that was how it was going to be that day.

Recently in a Game I had a bunch of faulty Las-Cannons, I never made a singe Pen Roll vs AV11 Vehicles.

Sometimes all the firepower in the world will not help no matter how good they are.

That could have been one of those Fluke things like that.

Though in this case a dreadknight is much more survivable than a 3 HP dreadnought. 1 Meltagun can reliably take down murderfang or atleast make him useless. Where the best a single meltagun can do against a dreadknight is take a wound off which can be saved with an invunerable save which the murderfang does not have.

You are right, oz. But what anpu is saying is that having someone with anecdotal evidence of murderfang being effective (like Konrax gave us) might be a positive contribution to the thread. It is easy to theory away on how easy it is to kill murderfang and have him be useless, so nobody here is trying him out and possibly coming up with results that defy the common conception that he is useless. Just because he can theoretically be killed by a single meltagun shot doesn't mean that he cannot cause some significant damage on the tabletop once contingencies like cover, strategic gameplay, and the randomness of actual dice-rolling becomes involved.

I usually run drop pod SW with 2 melta and a combi melta in each pod. Due to that, I've never really had an issue with an AV 13 getting into my front lines and just wrecking stuff. No matter how bad I roll, one of those 6 melta shots rolling 2D6 to pen is going to get through. If someone is playing a list that doesn't have a lot of armor pen then I'm sure Murderfang would do alright but if that's the case, there are still more effective things to spend the points on. Anyway, have fun trying to come up with a way to make him not suck.

I think the problem with that anecdotal evidence is it relies on the player being lucky. Fair enough, luck happens, but it's not good to plan on it. I avoided furiosos with lightning claws in 5th, i certainly wouldn't want to play one now. The problem is murderface is a melee dreadnought, and an expensive one at that. Unless that forgeworld drop-pod that allows assaults on the turn of deepstrike is still around, he's still going to have problems getting into melee.

 Torga_DW wrote:
I think the problem with that anecdotal evidence is it relies on the player being lucky. Fair enough, luck happens, but it's not good to plan on it. I avoided furiosos with lightning claws in 5th, i certainly wouldn't want to play one now. The problem is murderface is a melee dreadnought, and an expensive one at that. Unless that forgeworld drop-pod that allows assaults on the turn of deepstrike is still around, he's still going to have problems getting into melee.

All true. But we are playing a game in which dice decide a lot of outcomes. Luck is inherently a part of the game, since nobody is rolling enough dice during a game to expect results that perfectly conform to statistical expectations.

It is clear that the overall review for murderfang is negative. No arguments here on that. I just think that people are jumping on the "unusable" train without really trying it out. Is there a way he might work that people actually try before it is written off by mathhammering? Many people felt Lictors were near useless, then OrdoSean wins a tournament with the Deathleaper assassin formation.

I think that Bjorn plus Murderfang is an interesting possibility. Both are highly dangerous if left unmolested.

If he goes after Murderfang, you protect the pricier Bjorn from harm.

If he goes after Bjorn, he's less likely to get the kill and Murderfang gets to jump into his lines.

Add in a few other threats that might reach his lines on turn 2 (Thunderwolves, Fenresian Wolves, Swiftclaws, Skyclaws, Stormwolf on a Skyshield, forward deployed Landraider full of pain bringers, drop pod saturation, etc) and Murderfang either gets into combat, or is a sacrificial unit that, while pricey, is still cheaper than a lot of the other things you want to send in.

Jefffar wrote:
I think that Bjorn plus Murderfang is an interesting possibility. Both are highly dangerous if left unmolested.

If he goes after Murderfang, you protect the pricier Bjorn from harm.

If he goes after Bjorn, he's less likely to get the kill and Murderfang gets to jump into his lines.

Add in a few other threats that might reach his lines on turn 2 (Thunderwolves, Fenresian Wolves, Swiftclaws, Skyclaws, Stormwolf on a Skyshield, forward deployed Landraider full of pain bringers, drop pod saturation, etc) and Murderfang either gets into combat, or is a sacrificial unit that, while pricey, is still cheaper than a lot of the other things you want to send in.

The biggest issue I see with this is that is nearly 600 pts combined, if not more and a sacrificial unit of his cost is a little extensive.

oz of the north wrote:
The biggest issue I see with this is that is nearly 600 pts combined, if not more and a sacrificial unit of his cost is a little extensive.

I agree it's expensive as a sacrificial unit, but, when the unit you are keeping alive by its sacrifice is Bjorn, it's probably worth it.

Murderfang is built to grab attention. He looks crazy, his name has the word murder in it. His weapon has the word murder in it. He has a bunch of scary rules that stack on each other to do horrible things to the enemy if he gets close enough.Everything about him is designed to draw fire in a hurry.

Pair him with something else that is more important to your game plan than him but is far less attention grabbing. Either the enemy takes the bait and kills Murderfang letting your important unit live, or he has to deal with Murderfang charging his lines.

This is the best use. Some of you are talking threat saturation, I think misdirection and tactical dilemmas.

Good point Jefffar. A unit doesn't necessarily have to earn his points back in kills to be worth it. We cannot look at this guy as a stand alone unit, but what he brings to the rest of the army and what decisions he forces your opponent to consider.

I would barely consider him a distraction, with how easy he is to take down or make useless. I mean this comes down to the list that is being played, if there is little to no anti-tank then he will do great. But if there is a decent to large amount then it would not be that difficult to kill Bjorn and him in a single round. Also for distractions sake, a shield dread would still be better just for the fact that it has the 3++ on the front arc, which murderfang lacks any saving throw.

oz of the north wrote:
I would barely consider him a distraction, with how easy he is to take down or make useless. I mean this comes down to the list that is being played, if there is little to no anti-tank then he will do great. But if there is a decent to large amount then it would not be that difficult to kill Bjorn and him in a single round. Also for distractions sake, a shield dread would still be better just for the fact that it has the 3++ on the front arc, which murderfang lacks any saving throw and also it is cheaper

A key part of the distraction comes from the word murder. Say that enough and people pay attention.

I agree the Axe and shield is harder to kill and probably better against a T 7+ MC or a vehicle, but Murderfang can go full on blender of death on most non vehicle units which can't be ignored.

As for price, you are aware you need to pay for venerable before you buy the Axe and Shield right? That puts the Axe and shield dread at 10 points more than Murderfang assuming no other upgrades are purchased.

Jefffar wrote:

oz of the north wrote:
I would barely consider him a distraction, with how easy he is to take down or make useless. I mean this comes down to the list that is being played, if there is little to no anti-tank then he will do great. But if there is a decent to large amount then it would not be that difficult to kill Bjorn and him in a single round. Also for distractions sake, a shield dread would still be better just for the fact that it has the 3++ on the front arc, which murderfang lacks any saving throw and also it is cheaper

A key part of the distraction comes from the word murder. Say that enough and people pay attention.

I agree the Axe and shield is harder to kill and probably better against a T 7+ MC or a vehicle, but Murderfang can go full on blender of death on most non vehicle units which can't be ignored.

As for price, you are aware you need to pay for venerable before you buy the Axe and Shield right? That puts the Axe and shield dread at 10 points more than Murderfang assuming no other upgrades are purchased.

At first I thought that Murderfang was much more expensive than first thought, after actually looking at points he is cheaper, but for that 10 points you get a model that his drastically more likely to last more than 1 turn, also if does get into assault can last 2 turns of combat instead of completely annihilating everything. So will not be stuck in the open for another opponents turn.

But if I want the opponents attention a cheaper unit with a higher damage output potential fits the bill that much better.

I put Murderfang next to Bjorn and an Axe dread, every shot at Murderfang is a win for me.

graywater wrote:
Good point Jefffar. A unit doesn't necessarily have to earn his points back in kills to be worth it. We cannot look at this guy as a stand alone unit, but what he brings to the rest of the army and what decisions he forces your opponent to consider.

This. I've been thinking a bit more about Murderfang, and I think he'd do very well in the situations Anpu describes: a mass podding list. His greatest asset I can see is that he's significantly cheaper than an average kitted-out GH squad, but his potential damage is enough that he can easily draw fire from those units. His survivability is definitely a major issue though.

Also worth noting, when he drops he does have a heavy flamer. Even if he does nothing else all game, he could potentially cause some damage to Pathfinders or the like with that... too bad he lacks smoke launchers though.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

graywater wrote:
Good point Jefffar. A unit doesn't necessarily have to earn his points back in kills to be worth it. We cannot look at this guy as a stand alone unit, but what he brings to the rest of the army and what decisions he forces your opponent to consider.

This. I've been thinking a bit more about Murderfang, and I think he'd do very well in the situations Anpu describes: a mass podding list. His greatest asset I can see is that he's significantly cheaper than an average kitted-out GH squad, but his potential damage is enough that he can easily draw fire from those units. His survivability is definitely a major issue though.

Also worth noting, when he drops he does have a heavy flamer. Even if he does nothing else all game, he could potentially cause some damage to Pathfinders or the like with that... too bad he lacks smoke launchers though.

If you can get a Rune Priest near him with Tempest Wrath and/or Storm Caller that can help a lot, and JotWW can also be used to take out specific threat like Las Cannons and Melta Weapons.

Jefffar wrote:
But if I want the opponents attention a cheaper unit with a higher damage output potential fits the bill that much better.

It fits the bill better because it means your opponent is making the most use of their firepower... this is not a good thing If Murderface dies before he reaches CC, his only contribution is that he died so "other things" could live... but if those "other things" were less points per wound/HP and/or able to do some damage before they died... you should have just taken more "other things" instead of Murderface. You opponent dedicates more high S firepower to Murderface than TWC or Axe Dreads? Except TWC and Axe Dreads are capable of withstanding more high S shots so that's not a good outcome. They dedicate shooting to Murderface instead of a shooty Dread? But the shooty Dread is more likely to get a shot off and actually do some damage before it gets blown away and (depending on loadout) is possibly cheaper... so again, not a good outcome.

The only one that might fly is Bjorn, yeah, I'd rather them dedicate high S shots to Murderface than Bjorn... but they're both horrible alternatives especially when you consider just how easy it is to kill Murderface, it's not like the "distraction" will last, most armies I've met could easily kill Murderface in a single round of shooting. Taking both Bjorn and Murderface is 335pts worth of 2 not so hard to kill Dreads, Bjorn is better with his AV13 front and 5+ inv, but still more than I'd normally be willing to spend on 2 units that are so easy to kill and are unlikely to make much of an impact before they die.