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 thedarkavenger wrote:

Hey. Elves got united. And that is just the most idiotic thing ever.

We dark elves have a bitter hatred of our cousins on Ulthua- Oh. Tyrion's doing stuff. These guys are actually pretty cool I guess.

Hah.

We Wood Elves moved away from all that garbage thousands of years ago and now, ooh, guess we better listen to that Richard Asuryan after all and give our home to be Malekith the Pussy's new throne room!

 Mr Morden wrote:
Its all the dream of a sleeping Slann

In his glorious Temple in the middle of Hexoatl, the Slann Lord Mazdamundi slept carefully. Surrounded by scores of Temple Guard, he could rest easily and keep an eye on the entire globe. He slowly moved his mind towards the future, to see what might happen soon.

"Whats this? "Nagash rises again? Wait, who are these Glottkin, why haven't I seen them before? Since when did Malekith become Phoenix King?"

Mazdamundi was worried, he had never failed to foresee this much before. The whole world was falling apart under his feet.

"That's it, WHFB is becoming far too unstable for my liking, time to commit the grand exodus..... Into the realm of WH40K. A sacred realm where nothing alters, no matter how bad the situation appears."

Mazdamundi snorted and woke himself up. His temple guard were still stood silently around him. With a flick of his wrist he beckoned over a Skink Priest.

"Did anything happen whilst I was out?"

"No Sire, the world hasn't changed at all."

"Dammit, I knew I shouldn't have eaten that second bluebottle for breakfast." Mazdamundi grunted.

 Rune Stonegrinder wrote:
I would think the joint armies are for The End Times. As for permanent joining I doubt it, however it's possible

The point of it all is that GW cannot support the 14 or so separate factions that there are now while giving 40k the same level of support that it has now, thus the consolidation of those 14 into 9 (or fewer) which will make the game and the IP more manageable. Technically speaking I believe you will still be able to play a 'purist' force, but the division as they currently stand are gone. Think of it as 40ks allies system, but with more restrictions as to which armies can join up, and less restrictions as to what can be taken. Expect to see updated army books including multiple armies within ala the old realm of chaos books or whatever. In other words, "Armies of the Elves" would feature the Army of the Eternity King list, but would still have the Dark/Wood/High elf subdivisions within so players, if they want to can field a pure force of one of the three, however the 'balance' will be found in the combined list rather than in the individual list.

 welshhoppo wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Its all the dream of a sleeping Slann

In his glorious Temple in the middle of Hexoatl, the Slann Lord Mazdamundi slept carefully. Surrounded by scores of Temple Guard, he could rest easily and keep an eye on the entire globe. He slowly moved his mind towards the future, to see what might happen soon.

"Whats this? "Nagash rises again? Wait, who are these Glottkin, why haven't I seen them before? Since when did Malekith become Phoenix King?"

Mazdamundi was worried, he had never failed to foresee this much before. The whole world was falling apart under his feet.

"That's it, WHFB is becoming far too unstable for my liking, time to commit the grand exodus..... Into the realm of WH40K. A sacred realm where nothing alters, no matter how bad the situation appears."

Mazdamundi snorted and woke himself up. His temple guard were still stood silently around him. With a flick of his wrist he beckoned over a Skink Priest.

"Did anything happen whilst I was out?"

"No Sire, the world hasn't changed at all."

"Dammit, I knew I shouldn't have eaten that second bluebottle for breakfast." Mazdamundi grunted.

This actually came up today. The lizzies will exodus into 40K, at which point they will meet a space marine who will MURDERIFY them.

If its just a combined forces book.... No problem.

But to see the lion heart next to demigryphs would kill me.

Thanks
Austin

Hi guys & gals,

I've collected High Elves since the 4th edition box was released but stopped gaming WHFB a decade or more ago. I've still bought some army books, rules and models time to time though so I'm not totally out of touch with WHFB.

I loved the 4th edition High Elf army book (most of the high elf fluff in the newer books is just copy-pasted straight from there) with its detailed chronicles of the elven race, maps and introductions of the different kingdoms of Ulthuan and the units of the war hosts - it had such deep history and "feel" of an ancient and proud race. I remember reading the book with a dictionary by my side as I had just started my english classes (not my native language) and somehow managed to slowly translate the text. I had read a bit earlier the LotR trilogy and was immediately drawn to the rich world of Warhammer Fantasy and have followed it ever since.

Now this End Times stuff is just killing all that rich history.

I know that sometimes a good shake up of things is what a fiction needs and GW is of course entitled to do what they want with their product - although I guess they're mainly interested about selling miniatures (ever wanted to play with all the elven races together, well now you can!!!) but still. I have nothing against the return of the Nagash or a large scale Chaos invasion - those are kind of mandatory things to happen in Warhammer World from time to time! Wiping the Kislev and other places straight off the map, Bretonnian civil war etc. is kind of cold treatment though but yeah, it's a world shattering invasion, I get it. And those lost lands have some survivors and can be taken back (if GW ever makes new models/armylists for them), I guess.

But then we come to the elves and everything gets so dramatic - in a telenovela kind of way...

Somehow the quarreling rulers of Ulthuan in their wisdom decide that the Witch King is actually the best candidate for the job of Phoenix King and leader of their race - the guy being the bastard son of the cursed line of Aenarion who was already once rejected by the god Asuryan and is almost single-handedly responsible for the death of millions of elves and most of the Phoenix Kings during and after the Sundering... All this is forgotten and they also invate Malekith's friends to stay over because who wouldn't do that to people who have murdered many of your relatives and friends for the past thousands of years.

Remember, these people have been waging a pretty much constant war against each other for the past 5000 years. It's like if suddenly few South-Korean leaders would have an idea (god(s) told them so) that North-Korea's dictator Kim Jong-Un is the rightful ruler of all Koreans and the majority of citizens would be like "cool, let's follow him!" - what the...?

The high elves are a haughty race and their courts are known to include lots of intrigue but the stupidity of these events is just...

Nothing against Tyrion drawing the Widowmaker, although he had once already denied its call, as it would be a fitting event to spice things up. Nothing against some high elves joining Tyrion and others going against him but why would they then join with Malekith? As I see it they would probably stay as a force of their own led by still "loyal" princes and lords (Teclis, Imrik etc.) fighting against both Malekith and Tyrion.

The best thing GW could've done with elves, at least how I see it, would've been a cataclysmic end fight like the battle where Aenarion and the Mages stopped the Chaos and created the magical vortex. This time though the Khaine infused Tyrion and Malekith would destroy each other and the balance of the Vortex and Ulthuan would go the way of the Atlantis and sink. Teclis and the rest of the "good" elven heroes and mages would harness the unleashed energies and create a new spell of ending that would destroy them but once again stop the flow of rampant magic to the world. This would stop the power of Chaos and Nagash overcoming the world and would give the means for the men and dwarves to fight off the invasions.

The sorry remnants of the elven race would try to join their forces as the call of Khaine would be silenced in their souls and they'd see the madness of their own making and could start to rebuild their kingdom ( to Naggoroth or somewhere else). They would be a somber bunch, not evil in the dark elf kind a way, but bitter at the world and their sacrifice. They might even sail to the war-torn Old World to reclaim some of their ancient kingdoms.

Some individuals might go the way of goody-good, accept the failure of their race and try to "heal the world" etc. and would go to help the men and dwarves while some other individuals would be too broken by the destruction of their world and touched by the Chaos and would plot and march forth to bring the end to the world.

The elven world would've been shaken, kings and heroes, sorcerer's and villains died in droves and the truths about nobility and wickedness of their race would have been spread for all to see but it wouldn't have included all this silly "it was just a BIG misunderstanding 5000 years ago and they're actually friends" thing.

Lastly the Wood Elves would have nothing to do with these events as they don't take orders from the fools of the "old country". Some of the surviving elves might seek refugee from Athel Loren but that's it. Wood Elves have enough things to handle in the Old World so the idea of them getting into ships (ever heard of a wood elf navy...) and sailing to Ulthuan to fight is again just...

But yeah, this is just my opinion. I just remember a line from that old 4th ed. High Elf army book which described the nature of wars between the Dark & High Elves something as "...and if that would mean the destruction of the whole elven race then so be it. Better that none will survive than that the other side should triumph." Call it black and white but that is the essence of their struggle- Yin & Yang and all that.

Once the greatest heroes and anti-heroes of the elven race would be gone and their lands and gods shattered then maybe the survivors could be just elves and go on (mostly) as one people. But that they go willingly under the rule of Malekith, the most sadistic and power-hungry individual you'll ever meet, who's had incest with her own mother and made pacts with demons and who most of the elves (even dark elves) have feared/despised all their life - really?

Next we probably see Gotrek killing Felix and putting on the fabled Mask of Gork and Mork (TM) which makes hime the ruler of all greenskins and also the dwarves point him as their new High King so we can have allied Dwarf and Orc armies - because that totally makes sense...

Sorry for the rant and have a nice day

Cheers,

Ville

How about you actually read the fluff, and then rant about it instead of jumping to conclusions. Youd probably be pretty surprised as to how well written and logic al this is.

chaos0xomega wrote:
How about you actually read the fluff, and then rant about it instead of jumping to conclusions. Youd probably be pretty surprised as to how well written and logic al this is.

I have the Nagash book and it is actually well written - even if they are changing specific fluff things (how Silver Pinnacle came into the possession of Neferta for instance has completely been rewritten). Was looking to get the next too, once I had seen them, but they have all gone.

Still think its a Slaans dream however

If they just wouldn't be "sold Out" all the time - although I'm not that interested about paying 60€ for a pulp fantasy book. Maybe if they sold those digital editions for other formats than iBook and without an insane price tag but we all know that's not going to happen.

The thing is that all the fluff pre-dating these End Times is written so that the idea of druchii and asur joining sides is very far fetched (druchii hate the asur to their very guts and asur loathe what the druchii have become) and when Malekith is added to the equation it's down-right impossible.

It just goes so much against everything that the Warhammer lore has been for the last, what, 25 years or more and I think it's mostly done so that the people can just buy what they want and it's an elf army or they don't have to know other than "Johnny plays Elves" when looking for a present for kids.

I don't have anything against some change in the WH world but if everything is turned upside down it just gets too implausible and unconvincing. But that's just my view on the matter.

Lastly the Wood Elves would have nothing to do with these events as they don't take orders from the fools of the "old country". Some of the surviving elves might seek refugee from Athel Loren but that's it. Wood Elves have enough things to handle in the Old World so the idea of them getting into ships (ever heard of a wood elf navy...) and sailing to Ulthuan to fight is again just...

Well I think the idea is that the Everqueen and Ariel Avatars of Isha are now one and the same - there is also now the whole worldroots travel system?

I just wish that who was dead, who was alive, and how, was consistent between the novels and codex.



So far, Chaos has sort of united, the dwarves have played a bit part, almost all the human kingdoms have ceased to exist in any meaningful way, as have the orks, and the empire has lost Altdorf, which has been pretty much leveled. Skaven have gotten their teeth kicked in every time that they show up, and the Horned Rat made a personal appearance to order them to basically sit this out. The Lizardmen have fled, and I have not read the elf book to see what happens there.

For those noting some *achem* similarities between properties, Nagash = The Emperor, with his Primarchs/Mortarchs leading his unstoppable fearless legions while strife between them brews internally and the four Gods of Chaos have empowered one who might lead them in rebellion against him.

I really wish they've make up their minds about Vlad Von Carnstein. Since they have different writers on every book he's alternated between awesomely badass and a real jerk, sometimes in the same scene, depending on who wrote that version.

there is also now the whole worldroots travel system?

I haven't read the latest Wood Elf army book but apparently I have yet another reason to dislike the works of Matt Ward... So the Wood Elves use Dark Magic and their queen Ariel traveled through the root-highway (nice concept, even though clearly a eldar webway rip-off, but with a bad implementation) beat up Morathi and made her reveal the secrets of the dark art? A classical Wardian Slip...

Its not impossible. Theyre facing down the end of the world. Its just change and people are resistant to change.

Look as the USSR and the US. Polar opposites, mortal enemiez. Teamed up to take down Nazi Germany. When your o0tions are work tigether or die, youd be surprised what differences can be overcome.

Its not impossible. Theyre facing down the end of the world. Its just change and people are resistant to change.

Look as the USSR and the US. Polar opposites, mortal enemiez. Teamed up to take down Nazi Germany. When your o0tions are work tigether or die, youd be surprised what differences can be overcome.

First of all, very bad example. U.S and USSR were never in an open war against each other before or after WW2 (although fought in Korea, Vietnam and 3rd world countries on a different level).

The elves have fought for 5000 years so it's bit different than just going "hey, we have problems so lets work together". Their leader Malekith is the embodiment of everything the Asur have come to despise about druchii and to them is the most degenerated elf in history. He has tried to invade Ulthuan every few hundreds years or so and twice in the last 300 years, killing and destroying and taking thousands of slaves to Naggaroth to blood sacrifices. If the relations between U.S and USSR would have been like that do you think the they would have made peace instead of starting a nuclear holocaust?

If you want to use a situation from history as an example then maybe this would be a better one. After the 9/11 attacks instead of going to Afghanistan and Iraq the U.S would've elected Osama bin Laden as its new president. Does that sound a plausible scenario? I think not.

Secondly, it's not the change that I or many other people are resistant about. Like I said, I don't have anything against even the Ulthuan itself getting sank beneath the waves or elves unifying etc. The way it is done is the main thing. The whole history of Asur and Druchii watered-down to suit the idea that Malekith gets the throne and most Asur back him up is just so implausible. If the whole cursed line of Aenarion (Malekith, Tyrion, Teclis) would all get killed along with most of the other character ie. the driving force of their races and most of their subjects maybe some "new guys" could emerge and patch things up so that some sort of mutual co-existence or even unity could be possible. With Malekith as the leader of their entire race - never.

Its not a "hey were cool now lets join"

Its a "join or DIE" neither one of us is strong enough to hold out against chaos. Yes we hate each other but if the option is join or DIE, well I like being alive.

 Shas'O Dorian wrote:
Its not a "hey were cool now lets join"

Its a "join or DIE" neither one of us is strong enough to hold out against chaos. Yes we hate each other but if the option is join or DIE, well I like being alive.

In all fairness, from what I've heard(unsure of validity), there is a rumour that malekith was tricked, and the phoenix flames weren't meant to burn him.

If so, I wonder who that could be? It's not like his mother is a slaanesh worshipper or anything...

The Chaos has always been a major threat and usually it has been the druchii who have brought the Chaos to Ulthuan with them - but I guess all those demonic pacts etc. have been retconned to death in the latest installment of their lore.

Anyhow, the Asur have always been a race in twilight and aware that their time is ending - that's in the fluff. It was also made very clear in the fluff that no matter what, they think that druchii should never win and they would rather die to the last man than let the Malekith gain the throne of Ulthuan.

But now suddenly they make a total U-turn, accept Malekith as their leader and march together like it's year -2800. No rules for fragile alliances, infighting etc, the Asur units just march alongside druchii without any problems.
And with that the whole soul and motivation of their race is just sold away because "we might die". These are really the End Times...

In all fairness, from what I've heard(unsure of validity), there is a rumour that malekith was tricked, and the phoenix flames weren't meant to burn him.

If so, I wonder who that could be? It's not like his mother is a slaanesh worshipper or anything...

So Morathi was able to trick Asuryan, the Creator-God of the Elven Pantheon in his most sacred temple? And Malekith never did anything wrong before that - like poisoned the then current Phoenix King, assassinated his rivals, collected Chaotic artifacts etc. Also if he had been declared Phoenix King he would have married his own half-sister who was the Everqueen - well he had all that incest with his mother so that was probably least of his problems...
And even if all these events are retconned it still doesn't take away the fact that Malekith and his followers have been acting like total dicks for the last 5000 years so that no-one, let alone the Asur, would trust him or any other druchii one bit.
But apparently they do because Chaos is more Evil.

Oh, why GW, why...

It is indeed, the Ward Times....

The novels are not to be taken as canon, thats sta dard Black Library, so any inconsistencies there shouldnt he a concern.

As for the whold High/Dark elf union, all will be made clear when you actually read the fluff, contrary to much of the angst here it actually makes a hell of a lot of sense.

Thank you chaos. Thats been my point, even if im being a bit broad as i dont want to spoil anyhing

Those things I talked about are straight from the old High Elf and Dark Elf army books, not from any BL stuff.

What comes to the End Times Khaine making sense for all the elves to get together, well, I'm not buying it and I'm not buying it if you catch my drift The same thing has been said before about many things GW has changed in their fluff in WHFB and 40k and it's usually the opposite (for me).

As I haven't been playing WHFB or 40k anymore in years it doesn't basically affect me at all - I'm just a bit sad to see the original WH world I liked so much disappear and getting replaced with a CrudWard vision of things.

That said if any of you have read the Khaine book and don't have better things to do with your time then, please, go ahead and PM me a short spoiler why all this is happening. Maybe then I will have peace, knowing that my vision of the elves is still better

It will be interesting to see what becomes of the surviving remnant.

Naggaroth appears to be lost to Khorne (elven holdings there were limited mostly to the citadels and minor outposts, with the vast interior of the land uninhabited save for a few shade tribes).

Uluthan has mixed reports, ranging from war ravaged but still standing, all the way through to completely shattered and unlivable (something about a Chaotic mist warping everything?)

Athel Loren has been, from what I read last, overrun by Beastmen? Or perhaps partially...

Then there are the far-flung High elven colonies (aka Sea Elves), where we have heard nothing of their fate.


All in all, there appears to be very little room left for the elven survivors to populate. I dare say their numbers, already dwindling, would have taken an even sharper decline from the outcome of the End Times. Perhaps their populations are simply too small to sustain the vast kingdoms they once held, and will either unite into a single empire, or will reduce in smaller, insular nations concerned primarily with their own survival and rebuilding rather than any grand expeditions abroad.

I could foresee a (mostly) united elven front made up of broken and weary refugees from all three nations banding together to survive in the post-End Times world...eking out an existence and attempting to reclaim small pockets of elven lands, cities, groves etc. Some would turn to diplomacy, others piracy/plundering to survive, or perhaps a mixture of both?

In any event, whilst I love the old lore, it was becoming rather stale. I fear for too great a change by Ward, but some change might give a breath of fresh air back into the hobby. I would love to see Chaos Dwarves return (wouldn't we all?) but I doubt that. I also fancy some of the non-imperial/bretonnian human lands (Araby, Norsica, Ind, Cathay) but who knows?

I'm not a fan of all the consolidation and making changes to the setting that seem to be further reducing the nations in the background.

I'd been looking at getting back into WHFB... So, tell me more about this Kings of War thing that's all the rage these days?

Watch, it will end up like Empire In Flames and get retconned in four years.

I thought Ward left GW months ago?

chaos0xomega wrote:
I thought Ward left GW months ago?

Our spiritual liege will never abandon us 0.o

Thanks
Austin

Mat Ward did indeed leave the company back in April or so.

Wood Elves were partly overrun by beastmen, but we're now totally overrun by Dark Elves. Who we welcomed with open arms. Because the High Elf queen told us to after killing the Queen in the Forest and having her half-brother-boyfriend kill Orion.

This End Times release must have been planned and mostly written ready while he was still working for GW. If not and they're writing it on the move it's even worse...
Although now that I think of it, the fact that there are no new releases for Malekith, Tyrion, Imrik or other elven characters or units could point to the direction that the End Times Khaine is just that, an ad hoc construction put together in a hurry to quickly get rid off those old (and terrible...) dragon models they've got still left in stock

Makes as much sense as anything. They sold out of Ariel models years ago so they don't have to push her and can safely kill her off... if they've run out of dragon SC models by the time the next book comes out, oops, there goes Elvenkind.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Mat Ward did indeed leave the company back in April or so.

Wood Elves were partly overrun by beastmen, but we're now totally overrun by Dark Elves. Who we welcomed with open arms. Because the High Elf queen told us to after killing the Queen in the Forest and having her half-brother-boyfriend kill Orion.

The fluff I read in the Nagash book had the Everqueen entering into a bargain to save Ariel in exchange for the Wood Elves help in saving her daughter - (her Consorts brother being all evil now and making sure she gets sacrificed rather than rescuing her) - which although Ariel seemed to be going through with her part, the WE didn't.

I don't have a problem with the whole Ariel /Everqueen merging - both are avatars of the goddess Isha?

Not sure why she would join with Malkeith against her (possessed) Consort however unless she is promised a way of getting him back?

I don't know about the new books fluff as can't get them..................

Naggaroth appears to be lost to Khorne (elven holdings there were limited mostly to the citadels and minor outposts, with the vast interior of the land uninhabited save for a few shade tribes

Well the most recent DE army book had a much expanded and more populous land with loads of fortress etc.