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So the whole thing really goes to telenovela!

Leaders of the elves are going through some pretty crazy "my brother killed your husband so join with my half-sister and save his ex-lover while also allying with a cold-hearted killer who murdered most of our relatives and who secretly wants only to be loved by his own mother and show everybody that he is worthy in the eyes of his long dead father, the man who happens to be also the great-great-great-great-grandfather of his most hated adversary, the ex-lover of his wife-to-be, my brother, who has gone crazy after the death of his daughter and wants to kill the whole family and who we are trying to save" drama and forget the original reason why they even were fighting against each other for the past millenniums.
And everybody follows them because a god who all of them thought was trying to keep order in the world turns out to be more bat-gak crazy than their crazy god of murder and tells them to get wicked!

I'm loving this

 toasteroven wrote:

 Redbad wrote:
Bretonnia...and empire....merging?

I hope that NEVER EVER EVER EVER HAPPENS!!!!

please tell me this is just a bad rumor

Thanks
Austin

I've heard it a lot as a rumor, and I really, really hope it's just that. I mean, I'm fairly certain I've heard it as a rumor off and on for years, and it hasn't happened yet. so...

Evidence is trending towards just this happening though. Undead, Chaos, and now Elves are all being unified. Why would human armies be different ?

Also unification and "paring" down of army books is in line with two consistently repeated rumors: 1 - a reduction in the number of army books so that 2) the game is much easier to keep updated edition to edition, an often repeated challenge regarding WHFB by GW statements.

I think the real question mark is what happens to the non-chaotic nonhumans ? It's reasonable to think Skaven will keep being their own solo entity, but i'm interested to see what happens to Lizardmen, Ogres, and Dwarves.

Dwarves joining the humans i could see happening, but Lizards and Ogres really have me puzzled.


I'd love to see some non-human Concord of the Eagle, a la Confrontation, where the non-humans band together to stand against humans, elves, and evil dudes.... but it'd be a ripoff of Confrontation, and i'm not sure what sense making common fluff ground they'd all have.

 Haight wrote:

Dwarves joining the humans i could see happening, but Lizards and Ogres really have me puzzled.

Which is why both have been obliterated right off. Lizardmen are fleeing the world via some as of yet undisclosed but sounds like the Webway, and Ogres have been driven from their homelands and are joining up with humans and chaos.

Orks and night goblins have thus far been more or less swept aside and annihilated as well. Waiting for a book on them.

The end times are depressing....

This new fluff sucks, and is really painful to read.


I'm sure it's well written, but dammit (janet) where does it end?
They are messing with everything... Fantasy around here is already virtually dead... and with all the new changes, all they are doing is driving people further

Thanks
Austin

End times heralds the end of warhammer. No tactics required. Just pick KFA and win.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Haight wrote:

Dwarves joining the humans i could see happening, but Lizards and Ogres really have me puzzled.

Which is why both have been obliterated right off. Lizardmen are fleeing the world via some as of yet undisclosed but sounds like the Webway, and Ogres have been driven from their homelands and are joining up with humans and chaos.

Orks and night goblins have thus far been more or less swept aside and annihilated as well. Waiting for a book on them.

Right, i'd be with you, but for a reason applicable to both:

In terms of IP, other than perhaps Skaven, GW's version of Lizardmen and Ogres are extremely defensible ; Aztecan influenced galactic janitor Lizardmen is pretty unique, particularly with the various shapes and sizes of lizards and dinos, and ravenously vaguely mongolian horsemen-less-the-horses-cuz-they-probably-ate-them who worship an all devouring Maw that came from the sky and devours even the land (read that: comet that is giving off radiation more than likely) with gut plates.

In terms of defensible IP, they're at the top (as opposed to say "dwarves", any of the variety of elves, or the empire or bretonnia, which are all ridiculous boiler-plate in nature). Which is why i say i'm puzzled. I don't know about ogres, but i've seen in many places that Lizards have for a long time been a popular and well selling army. Which leaves me sorta puzzled. I would imagine with the strength of the recent-ish ogre book, that they've seen an uptick in popularity.


Also, Bell of Lost Souls is reporting that End Times is not necessarily done with book 5, and that it is likely End Times supplements will continue into 9th Edition, which is poised to drop in May / June.


I would not be surprised to see the Lizards make an about-face at some point from a grand exodus to renewing the fight for the Olde World. Remember, the polar vortex goes buy-bye in End Times: Khaine.

The ogres on the other hand split up, some marching towards the empire (ostensibly to be mercs) and some marching North (ostensibly to join the chaos invasion dinner bell).



I highly, highly doubt that Ogres and Lizzies will just evaporate.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Redbad wrote:
The end times are depressing....

This new fluff sucks, and is really painful to read.


I'm sure it's well written, but dammit (janet) where does it end?
They are messing with everything... Fantasy around here is already virtually dead... and with all the new changes, all they are doing is driving people further

Thanks
Austin

Around here, other than a couple home grow basement leagues, there hasn't been much of a fantasy scene... for GeeDubbs its mostly 40k.

Rumors that the game is going become more accessible in 9th, along with End Times stuff has attracted a lot of people that are in "wait and see mode". I hope it works. It's a great game, and i'd love to see more people get interested in it.

 Haight wrote:


Around here, other than a couple home grow basement leagues, there hasn't been much of a fantasy scene... for GeeDubbs its mostly 40k.

Rumors that the game is going become more accessible in 9th, along with End Times stuff has attracted a lot of people that are in "wait and see mode". I hope it works. It's a great game, and i'd love to see more people get interested in it.

If they lower the model count, most people would quit. As it'll lose it's appeal.

 Haight wrote:

I would not be surprised to see the Lizards make an about-face at some point from a grand exodus to renewing the fight for the Olde World. Remember, the polar vortex goes buy-bye in End Times: Khaine.

I highly, highly doubt that Ogres and Lizzies will just evaporate.

Lizards are started all through the fluff to be already gone during Nagash's rise. Something that comes up over and over is that the lizards leave shortly after the daemon attacks that signal the start of the end Times. the Polar vortex vanishing two books later doesn't matter much.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Haight wrote:

I would not be surprised to see the Lizards make an about-face at some point from a grand exodus to renewing the fight for the Olde World. Remember, the polar vortex goes buy-bye in End Times: Khaine.

I highly, highly doubt that Ogres and Lizzies will just evaporate.

Lizards are started all through the fluff to be already gone during Nagash's rise. Something that comes up over and over is that the lizards leave shortly after the daemon attacks that signal the start of the end Times. the Polar vortex vanishing two books later doesn't matter much.

Well at least they did not got eaten by Tyranids

I hope more people come to the hobby, but we can ignore the end times stuff for 9th..

Thanks
Austin

For me, it's so conflicting.
I'd hate to see united armies/army books as a standard of 9ed and I think that progression was a too drastic. I would've liked some minor changes, say, Malekith becomes new King and the other guy takes Malekith's place - that's fine. Franz becoming Uber Franz - uber cool. Nagash reborn - superb. Settra gets his bony ass handed to him (?) - not so superb. Kislev destroyed - not fun. Etc, etc.

I hope with the beginning of the end times that they will introduce all of books about it that include the almost destruction of nations, the rising of chaos, the introduction of a nice new shaven weapon or maybe evening a different box set to the island of blood. But we can only wait and see.

I too would be sad if the variety of armies was condensed. If that's the case I will likely stick with 8th.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 Haight wrote:


Around here, other than a couple home grow basement leagues, there hasn't been much of a fantasy scene... for GeeDubbs its mostly 40k.

Rumors that the game is going become more accessible in 9th, along with End Times stuff has attracted a lot of people that are in "wait and see mode". I hope it works. It's a great game, and i'd love to see more people get interested in it.

If they lower the model count, most people would quit. As it'll lose it's appeal.

They've already taken their first steps ; 50% lords and heroes and these monster point count lords (i will admit, some of them actually act as force multipliers, but not all) is an active step toward model count reduction. I don't mean to infer the game becomes a skirmish game, not at all. However the sheer size and scope of the game has become a barrier to entry, largely due to model count costs. It's a known issue that GW has talked about in several of their official releases (financials, company outlooks, etc). I do not believe that they'll go a route that precludes you from taking cheap lords / heroes, and loading up on models (as that would be dumb of them too!), but allowing more lords and heroes is one way you combat the initial buy-in barrier and resistance, and lower the initial investment cost due to lower model count.

Search around these forums ; i've seen no less than 6 people post "Thinking of starting a legions of undeath army now that i can buy a single hundred dollar model [nagash] and that's half my army." While we probably realize that's an incorrect summation, that's exactly the desired result that GW wants ; the perception that the game is now less expensive to get into, and that breaks the barrier for the otherwise hesitant but interested consumer.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Haight wrote:

I would not be surprised to see the Lizards make an about-face at some point from a grand exodus to renewing the fight for the Olde World. Remember, the polar vortex goes buy-bye in End Times: Khaine.

I highly, highly doubt that Ogres and Lizzies will just evaporate.

Lizards are started all through the fluff to be already gone during Nagash's rise. Something that comes up over and over is that the lizards leave shortly after the daemon attacks that signal the start of the end Times. the Polar vortex vanishing two books later doesn't matter much.

Bit of hyperbole, don't you think ? It's not all over, it's mentioned in like 2 paragraphs, and it most certainly doesn't say "The lizards are all gone". It's more like "The lizards have pulled back and are considering [abandoning ship] while Mazdamundi figures out the next move."


Regardless of what the fluff says, GW is governed by real world things more than what they write in their books ; LIzards are a well selling army with an easily defensible IP. It wouldn't make much sense for them to abandon them, but then again, they've done sillier things in the past.




Regardless, here's the thing:

1) Fantasy has gotten too expensive for most new players to pick up on a whim or impulse. It's a MAJOR money commitment.

2) Fantasy sales are a quarter to a third of what 40k's are.

3) the way the game works, it's not like in 40k where in a 500 point game i can still take a landraider if i want to most of the time. If i'm playing a 500 point WHFB (which, i can't almost even fathom...), then i'm gak out of luck if i want to take an Ironblaster cannon, or frost phoenix. This is another barrier to entry ; the biggest, coolest gak in the game doesn't point scale with the game like it does with 40k. Yes, there's a vanishing point on both ends of the spectrum, but it's much lower in 40k than it is in Fantasy. This contributes to another barrier to entry for fantasy.

4) Having a number of armies in the low to mid teens is a gigantic hurdle for updating and balancing.

I worked for privateer as one of their rules infernals for several years. It was hard enough with 4 factions which were all independant with no cross pollination, and then a more porous quasi fifth for each of the games. I can't even fathom 13-14 different factions.

The point here is that if they don't consolidate, they can't address two HUGE fans of the game concerns ; slow speed of updates with new editions, and therefore end the "newest army book = win" syndrome.

5) GW after the chapterhouse incident is going to be keenly interested in protecting unique IP's, and developing more homogenous ones into something more defensible. That second one is the real challenge, particularly with Dwarves and Elves.


I'm not suggesting that WHFB is going to become a skirmish game, but i would not be surprised if 9th aims to reduce the model count. signfiicantly. I also can't imagine they are going to squattify anything else, but hey, i might be wrong. So far the new CEO seems to be making some good decisions (quick turn around on End Times Reprints, confirming that softcover books are coming back for an economy price option, etc etc). They also have a lot of challenges when it comes to Fantasy, and if we want to see it survive, we might have to embrace some changes with the game going forward ; what's been being done hasn't been working, and if more of the same continues, the game will get short shrift if not all together abandoned on a long enough timeline.

 Haight wrote:

Bit of hyperbole, don't you think ? It's not all over, it's mentioned in like 2 paragraphs, and it most certainly doesn't say "The lizards are all gone". It's more like "The lizards have pulled back and are considering [abandoning ship] while Mazdamundi figures out the next move."

This is gonna be one of those conversations isn't it?

'It says right here they left' 'No it doesn't, it says they withdrew' 'it says they're long gone in the next book'. 'No, it says 'they have long since fled. abandoning thier cities to the warp. They might not have fled off the WHFB world!' " "This other one actually describes them fleeing into the webway'. 'You can't use that, it's a black library source!'

And so on, and so on....

Last time it reached the point that they were swearing I was wrong, and that the authors of nine BL novels, two IA books, and three GW codices were all also wrong, because one line in one codex from third edition said something else.

So I'm just gonna walk away now.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Haight wrote:

Bit of hyperbole, don't you think ? It's not all over, it's mentioned in like 2 paragraphs, and it most certainly doesn't say "The lizards are all gone". It's more like "The lizards have pulled back and are considering [abandoning ship] while Mazdamundi figures out the next move."

So I'm just gonna walk away now.

K.


It's been no problem being civil with everyone else, - actually been a great thread for conversation - so if you feel that's impossible, good talking with you. *shrug* It's the internet. People split hairs. And miscontrue things.

All the time.

But if you feel the need to announce a departure walk off exit stage left home run, more power to you.


-- Haight

 Haight wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Haight wrote:

Bit of hyperbole, don't you think ? It's not all over, it's mentioned in like 2 paragraphs, and it most certainly doesn't say "The lizards are all gone". It's more like "The lizards have pulled back and are considering [abandoning ship] while Mazdamundi figures out the next move."

So I'm just gonna walk away now.

K.


It's been no problem being civil with everyone else, - actually been a great thread for conversation - so if you feel that's impossible, good talking with you. *shrug* It's the internet. People split hairs. And miscontrue things.

All the time.

But if you feel the need to announce a departure walk off exit stage left home run, more power to you.


-- Haight

In all fairness, when Teclis unleashes the eight winds of magic, it's heavily hinted that Tetto'Ekko becomes lore of heavens.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 Haight wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Haight wrote:

Bit of hyperbole, don't you think ? It's not all over, it's mentioned in like 2 paragraphs, and it most certainly doesn't say "The lizards are all gone". It's more like "The lizards have pulled back and are considering [abandoning ship] while Mazdamundi figures out the next move."

So I'm just gonna walk away now.

K.


It's been no problem being civil with everyone else, - actually been a great thread for conversation - so if you feel that's impossible, good talking with you. *shrug* It's the internet. People split hairs. And miscontrue things.

All the time.

But if you feel the need to announce a departure walk off exit stage left home run, more power to you.


-- Haight

In all fairness, when Teclis unleashes the eight winds of magic, it's heavily hinted that Tetto'Ekko becomes lore of heavens.

Not sure what this has to do with the other guy throwing up his hands in exasperation instead of proving his point with quotes if he really wants to and proverbially "stopping right here", even though the whole act of posting is in direct contravention of "stopping right here" - i recall all of two specific mentions about the lizzies abandoning ship, there might be more...

In any event, time will tell if they squat the Lizzies or not. I will merrily admit i'm wrong if it happens. I don't think it will. We're all entitled to our opinion. Fluff != rules, nor does fluff != business decisions. Simply because they state the Lizards are pulling back, this doesn't mean they can't reverse course and join the young ones against chaos. If you note, there's lots and lots of people becoming avatars of the winds of magic ; my thinking on reading more of the book is that the avatars of the winds are going to have a grand fight with the chaos gods, and i think that Tetto'ekko (sp!?) is part of that, and will draw the lizards back in.

Just my thinking. I think that will play out more in Skaven book, personally.

Privateer openly stated Cult of Cyriss would never be a faction. Until they released them saying "they're not a faction, really, as they won't be regularly updated".

-- Haight

 thedarkavenger wrote:

In all fairness, when Teclis unleashes the eight winds of magic, it's heavily hinted that Tetto'Ekko becomes lore of heavens.

In Nagash it's heavily hinted that Drakenfels is one of the Nine Mortarchs. So far, they have not done anything with that.

As far as throwing up my hands, I've had this sort of convo before. It's a waste of time.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 Haight wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Haight wrote:

Bit of hyperbole, don't you think ? It's not all over, it's mentioned in like 2 paragraphs, and it most certainly doesn't say "The lizards are all gone". It's more like "The lizards have pulled back and are considering [abandoning ship] while Mazdamundi figures out the next move."

So I'm just gonna walk away now.

K.


It's been no problem being civil with everyone else, - actually been a great thread for conversation - so if you feel that's impossible, good talking with you. *shrug* It's the internet. People split hairs. And miscontrue things.

All the time.

But if you feel the need to announce a departure walk off exit stage left home run, more power to you.


-- Haight

In all fairness, when Teclis unleashes the eight winds of magic, it's heavily hinted that Tetto'Ekko becomes lore of heavens.

If by Tetto'Ekko you mean Karl Franz.

As a side note, this book makes it pretty clear that the elves story isnt over yet, what with the largest host of treekfolk and dryads forming together for unknown purposes and Malekith the Shadow God no longer being the beacon of hope and light Teclis intended him to be but rather have a "dark destiny to fulfill", as well as the insinuation that Lileath and Teclis plot hasnt been fully resolved yet but is actually still in progress.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

In all fairness, when Teclis unleashes the eight winds of magic, it's heavily hinted that Tetto'Ekko becomes lore of heavens.

In Nagash it's heavily hinted that Drakenfels is one of the Nine Mortarchs. So far, they have not done anything with that.

As far as throwing up my hands, I've had this sort of convo before. It's a waste of time.

There does seem to be a few nice nods to the really old lore - I still think that the Vampire who gave Gelt the Scroll was Genevieve as she fitted the description and accent.....................

Its all a good read - I just treat it as an alternative reality of the Warhammer world

 Mr Morden wrote:

There does seem to be a few nice nods to the really old lore - I still think that the Vampire who gave Gelt the Scroll was Genevieve as she fitted the description and accent.....................

Yeah, I noticed that too. Again, it's sad that nothing will be done with it.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

There does seem to be a few nice nods to the really old lore - I still think that the Vampire who gave Gelt the Scroll was Genevieve as she fitted the description and accent.....................

Yeah, I noticed that too. Again, it's sad that nothing will be done with it.

I was in two minds - love to see her mentioned more but afraid what they would actually do with her character...or Melissa etc

 Mr Morden wrote:

I was in two minds - love to see her mentioned more but afraid what they would actually do with her character...or Melissa etc

Yeah, true, their treatment of Vlad has been depressingly inconsistent to the point of schizophrenia between the novel and the codex.

The novels arent canon and are written by different people *shrug*

chaos0xomega wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 Haight wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Haight wrote:

Bit of hyperbole, don't you think ? It's not all over, it's mentioned in like 2 paragraphs, and it most certainly doesn't say "The lizards are all gone". It's more like "The lizards have pulled back and are considering [abandoning ship] while Mazdamundi figures out the next move."

So I'm just gonna walk away now.

K.


It's been no problem being civil with everyone else, - actually been a great thread for conversation - so if you feel that's impossible, good talking with you. *shrug* It's the internet. People split hairs. And miscontrue things.

All the time.

But if you feel the need to announce a departure walk off exit stage left home run, more power to you.


-- Haight

In all fairness, when Teclis unleashes the eight winds of magic, it's heavily hinted that Tetto'Ekko becomes lore of heavens.

If by Tetto'Ekko you mean Karl Franz.

As a side note, this book makes it pretty clear that the elves story isnt over yet, what with the largest host of treekfolk and dryads forming together for unknown purposes and Malekith the Shadow God no longer being the beacon of hope and light Teclis intended him to be but rather have a "dark destiny to fulfill", as well as the insinuation that Lileath and Teclis plot hasnt been fully resolved yet but is actually still in progress.

No. It's a familiar, yet alien presence. For someone who has met humans, he'd know. Plus they've already revealed Karl Franz. Plus it was beasts that went to the empire.

chaos0xomega wrote:
The novels arent canon and are written by different people *shrug*

Who apparently can't communicate? Very sad if true tbh?

 thedarkavenger wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 Haight wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Haight wrote:

Bit of hyperbole, don't you think ? It's not all over, it's mentioned in like 2 paragraphs, and it most certainly doesn't say "The lizards are all gone". It's more like "The lizards have pulled back and are considering [abandoning ship] while Mazdamundi figures out the next move."

So I'm just gonna walk away now.

K.


It's been no problem being civil with everyone else, - actually been a great thread for conversation - so if you feel that's impossible, good talking with you. *shrug* It's the internet. People split hairs. And miscontrue things.

All the time.

But if you feel the need to announce a departure walk off exit stage left home run, more power to you.


-- Haight

In all fairness, when Teclis unleashes the eight winds of magic, it's heavily hinted that Tetto'Ekko becomes lore of heavens.

If by Tetto'Ekko you mean Karl Franz.

As a side note, this book makes it pretty clear that the elves story isnt over yet, what with the largest host of treekfolk and dryads forming together for unknown purposes and Malekith the Shadow God no longer being the beacon of hope and light Teclis intended him to be but rather have a "dark destiny to fulfill", as well as the insinuation that Lileath and Teclis plot hasnt been fully resolved yet but is actually still in progress.

No. It's a familiar, yet alien presence. For someone who has met humans, he'd know. Plus they've already revealed Karl Franz. Plus it was beasts that went to the empire.

You need to reread the book then, Im looking at it now. Beasts went "East" which is just a vague direction, Heavens is EXPLICITLY stated to have anchored in the Empire (p138 last paragraph of 1st column), the presence that Teclis refers to isnt the anchor point but rather "an intelligence at work within Azyr's essence" (Azyr being the name of the wind), which if I had to guess was Sigmar. Also if you cross reference the date of events between Khaine and Glottkin you will see that Karl Franz died and ascended to living godhood in the same year as Teclis bound the magics, in other words, the stories occur simultaneously.

I love The End Times its what i always wanted for warhammer.

The first 2/3rds of Khaine takes place at the same time as Nagash, and the last 1/3 takes place at the same time as Glotkin.

Re: Lizards. In Nagash it states that "the exodus has begun" and doesn't say where they're going. I don't remember them even being mentioned in Glotkin.

If i had to guess? All the races in the game currently seem to be getting pushed into the Old World. The Ogres are being forced west, the Dark Elves abandoned Naggaroth, the High Elves had to leave Ulthuan... I think thats where the Lizards will end up, too.



Re: all the comments about how events in End Times dont make sense compared to army book fluff.

They do, but only the 8th Edition army books, which going back as far as Vampire Counts have had hints and suggestions planted in them that have played out in End Times.