Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Pelas Mir'san wrote:
Strictly my opinion here.

Don't cry about it, become a better general, and develop some strategies to stop him....anything can be beaten.

The only option those models present to me is to roll a super spell and hope he rolls a six.

Case in point, I played against Nagash, and by turn 2 he just had Nagash left. Two turns later, I had 2 peg riders as Nagash proceeded to walk through my entire Dark Elf army, due to my level 4 death cascading a purple sun and falling down the hole.

Nothing in any elf books can kill nagash.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 Pelas Mir'san wrote:
Strictly my opinion here.

Don't cry about it, become a better general, and develop some strategies to stop him....anything can be beaten.

The only option those models present to me is to roll a super spell and hope he rolls a six.

Case in point, I played against Nagash, and by turn 2 he just had Nagash left. Two turns later, I had 2 peg riders as Nagash proceeded to walk through my entire Dark Elf army, due to my level 4 death cascading a purple sun and falling down the hole.

Nothing in any elf books can kill nagash.

Well, Tyrion can. If he reaches melee.

It helps if you also have a high mage that starts unforging / draining / deadlocking Nagash.

I killed Nagash with treemen........ 2 of them

 tenebre wrote:
I killed Nagash with treemen........ 2 of them

My treemen always get killed as soon as they peek out from behind cover :(

Vetril wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 Pelas Mir'san wrote:
Strictly my opinion here.

Don't cry about it, become a better general, and develop some strategies to stop him....anything can be beaten.

The only option those models present to me is to roll a super spell and hope he rolls a six.

Case in point, I played against Nagash, and by turn 2 he just had Nagash left. Two turns later, I had 2 peg riders as Nagash proceeded to walk through my entire Dark Elf army, due to my level 4 death cascading a purple sun and falling down the hole.

Nothing in any elf books can kill nagash.

Well, Tyrion can. If he reaches melee.

It helps if you also have a high mage that starts unforging / draining / deadlocking Nagash.

Tyrion doesn't have enough attacks to kill Nagash. And Nagash can kill Tyrion.

Unless you mean the Avatar of Khaine Tyrion, who isn't actually in an elf book.

Short of getting VERY lucky, Nagash, or god forbid KFA, will walk through an elf army, untouched. Unless you have a super model from an End Times book, you can't touch them. The only thing I can do is put someone with the BOTWD in there and hope I don't run away or roll any 1s short of taking The Eternity King/Avatar of Khaine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 tenebre wrote:
I killed Nagash with treemen........ 2 of them

Then you got very very lucky.

This is the end times baby, feel free to mash all the elves together to stomp on him. I had a frostheart phoenix and a full unit of sea guard (30) take a bloodthirster down, took like 3 turns but was able to do it.

 Pelas Mir'san wrote:
This is the end times baby, feel free to mash all the elves together to stomp on him. I had a frostheart phoenix and a full unit of sea guard (30) take a bloodthirster down, took like 3 turns but was able to do it.

To tell the truth, that mostly speaks volumes about the bloodthirster's relative power

 Pelas Mir'san wrote:
This is the end times baby, feel free to mash all the elves together to stomp on him. I had a frostheart phoenix and a full unit of sea guard (30) take a bloodthirster down, took like 3 turns but was able to do it.

Rolling averagely, 8 bolt throwers within 6" of a cauldron don't kill Nagash before he hits combat. At which point he just beats anything bar Malekith/Tyrion, and I don't use those kinds of models, on the grounds of it being a punch to the face of anyone who has to play against them. Regardless of skill, they will beat you if pushed forward.

I do not have the Nasgash book nor played anyone that has that model so forgive I do not know his stats.

But If i remember correctly, Lore of light could hurt him in a bad way with a couple of good rolls, even under the new magic rules. I understand its frustrating, hell I hate fighting my friends' dwarves who run straight gunline with longbeards in the middle (god-forsaken stunted bearded fools). BotWD can be a big help against him.

Actually, TDA, you can't field 8 bolt throwers. You have to respect the normal unit restrictions because you can only take 4 of them if you field a dark elves army, or a high elves army. The 3 EoT elven lists are neither. So max is... 5? IIRC.

Edit - and indeed, a coven melts Nagash, using the new magic rules. With some planning and using a couple of wood elves items (moonstone and acorn, if you want to be sure) you can even make it so that Nagash will have a hard time when trying to deny line of sight to the coven.

Vetril wrote:
Actually, TDA, you can't field 8 bolt throwers. You have to respect the normal unit restrictions because you can only take 4 of them if you field a dark elves army, or a high elves army. The 3 EoT elven lists are neither. So max is... 5? IIRC.

The end time book states that you use the units from the dark elf book, but ignore the army special rules. It even says, and this is a bunch of direct quotes, "you must use the unit profiles, points costs, equipment, and special rules found in the Warhammer: Dark Elves, Warhammer: High Elves, or Warhammer: Wood Elves books." And "The Army special rules from Warhammer: High Elves, Warhammer: Dark Elves, and Warhammer: Wood elves are not used."

In the DE book there is this: "A Dark Elf army may include up to 4 Reaper Bolt Throwers, and up to 8 in a Grand Army".
High elves bolt thrower is the same.

Pick one of two options:

1. the text above is an army special rule, and so it is not used. You are not allowed to use it because "The Army special rules from Warhammer: High Elves, Warhammer: Dark Elves, and Warhammer: Wood elves are not used."

2. the text above is only a special rule, and so is used (per this quote: "you must use [...] and special rules found in the Warhammer: Dark Elves [...] book"). The Host of the Eternity King (for example) is not a Dark Elf army, so the rule condition isn't satisfied.

I'd say 2 is the case at hand.

Vetril wrote:
In the DE book there is this: "A Dark Elf army may include up to 4 Reaper Bolt Throwers, and up to 8 in a Grand Army".
High elves bolt thrower is the same.

Pick one of two options:

1. the text above is an army special rule, and so it is not used. You are not allowed to use it because "The Army special rules from Warhammer: High Elves, Warhammer: Dark Elves, and Warhammer: Wood elves are not used."

2. the text above is only a special rule, and so is used (per this quote: "you must use [...] and special rules found in the Warhammer: Dark Elves [...] book"). The Host of the Eternity King (for example) is not a Dark Elf army, so the rule condition isn't satisfied.

It's a unit special rule. Not an army special rule. And the Khaine book states that the only thing you don't use is what's listed under the army special rules section. Everything else is as it is in the book.

You use it's special rules as donated by the (DE). The HotEK is simply the books used in conjunction with all the special rules from each book.

Ok, but you aren't fielding a regular Dark Elf army. It's a different army. The unit rule is valid for Dark Elf armies.

Vetril wrote:
Ok, but you aren't fielding a regular Dark Elf army. It's a different army. The unit rule is valid for Dark Elf armies.

It's a dark elf unit, used as a unit from the dark elf army, in an army that uses the dark, high, and wood elf army books.

The dark elf army is still valid, at no point does the HotEK make the books invalid.

By the same token, if we say that unit special rules don't apply, nowhere in any of the Khaine army lists does it list that elves have ASF. Does that mean that they lose it?

Do you call it Dark Elf army, or Host of the Eternity King army?

Vetril wrote:
Do you call it Dark Elf army, or Host of the Eternity King army?

So they don't get ASF then. Got it. Cool.

What part of the whole "Host of the Eternity king uses the dark, high, and wood elf armies" is unclear to you?

An elf complaining they can't beat Nagash?

Honestly, anyone would think Hagsbane Arrows weren't a thing or something...

I think avenger was having a rage quit moment. I think if you really put the fight to him, he would topple just like any other undead. I mean come on, a man beat him to death...literally a man (Sigmar), but still he was a man at the time.

As for battling him, Lore of light...like seriously.

Unfortunately, a unit of 12 Glade Guard can reliably put only 1.5 wounds on Nagash during a single turn; Nagash can then easily heal it up during his magic phase. At 150+ points, the poisonous Glade Guard aren't exactly cheap, nor resilient enough to survive the battle.
Nagash only needs to summon a few zombies right next to the archers to buy himself some time, or to direct a magic projectile at them to outright kill most of the models.
With the new rules, however, you have a few ways to kill him.

1. Tyrion, avatar of Khaine: he wields a weapon that wounds automatically and deals d6 multiple wounds. It's better than a cannonball. Nagash can only save with his Ward Save of 4+.
2. Banishment: now you can spam it more than once per turn. Denies Nagash's armor, deals 3d6 hits, makes Nagash repeat his successful Ward Saves.
3. Searing Doom: d6 hits that wound on 4+. Spamming that is much better than trying to cast Final Transmutation and hope that Nagash rolls a 6.

---

TDA, I stated my opinion about the bolt throwers.

Vetril wrote:
Unfortunately, a unit of 12 Glade Guard can reliably put only 1.5 wounds on Nagash during a single turn; Nagash can then easily heal it up during his magic phase. At 150+ points, the poisonous Glade Guard aren't exactly cheap, nor resilient enough to survive the battle.
Nagash only needs to summon a few zombies right next to the archers to buy himself some time, or to direct a magic projectile at them to outright kill most of the models.
With the new rules, however, you have a few ways to kill him.

1. Tyrion, avatar of Khaine: he wields a weapon that wounds automatically and deals d6 multiple wounds. It's better than a cannonball. Nagash can only save with his Ward Save of 4+.
2. Banishment: now you can spam it more than once per turn. Denies Nagash's armor, deals 2d6 hits, makes Nagash repeat his successful Ward Saves.
3. Searing Doom: d6 hits that wound on 4+. Spamming that is much better than trying to cast Final Transmutation and hope that Nagash rolls a 6.

---

TDA, I stated my opinion about the bolt throwers.

If Nagash is used properly, you have 1, maybe two turns to actually deal with him. My regular opponent plays him. And I've been playing Delfs since the 6th ed book, and winning with them even then. I can outplay him all the time and still lose because he pushes a nigh unkillable model forward.

You need a polar opposite to deal with Nagash. My Empire can do it, but that's because it's double banishment(S6&7) and cannonspam. It's literally a polar opposite to those lists. And I don't play that list anymore because it requires as much skill as fielding Nagash, I.E. None.

I totally agree with you Ventril. There is many viable ways to take him down. I disdain using warmachines as much as possible due to unreasonable anger towards dwarves (it's reasonable). So I use magic to work the variables for me.

As I said, if I play against Nagash I merely take the Acorn, the Moonstone, and a light coven to teleport around. Turn 2 I can start spamming Banishment on him.

Nagash is still fun to play against though. The funniest way me and my friends have been playing him is with a zombie horde. Consider that he can now spam a summon spell that gives him 50 zombies to put down on the table, per casting.
It quickly gets out of control

Vetril wrote:
As I said, if I play against Nagash I merely take the Acorn, the Moonstone, and a light coven to teleport around. Turn 2 I can start spamming Banishment on him.

Nagash is still fun to play against though. The funniest way me and my friends have been playing him is with a zombie horde. Consider that he can now spam a summon spell that gives him 50 zombies to put down on the table, per casting.
It quickly gets out of control

So you're saying the way to deal with Nagash is to use magic. So you now have to roll enough dice to get the spell off, cast it successfully, hope he dispels it, and hope you roll enough to get through his armour/ward?

That's not a reliable way to deal with him.

You need to roll 5+ to cast Banishment with a spellweaver. That's not hard to do with 2 dice. Even if you roll a 1, you can still pull it off 33% of the time.
A decent coven will deny the armor save, and the ward save will save 1 wound out of 4. Considering you can't dispel everything with the new rules (you don't have enough dice), Nagash will melt. The only way it can survive is if you get unlucky and fail to cast Banishment early in the magic phase. Even then I'd switch to Shem, to at least weaken him for shooting and for the next turn.
Plus, this approach beats your Final Transmutation strategy.

Vetril wrote:
You need to roll 5+ to cast Banishment with a spellweaver. That's not hard to do with 2 dice. Even if you roll a 1, you can still pull it off 33% of the time.
A decent coven will deny the armor save, and the ward save will save 1 wound out of 4. Considering you can't dispel everything with the new rules (you don't have enough dice), Nagash will melt. The only way it can survive is if you get unlucky and fail to cast Banishment early in the magic phase. Even then I'd switch to Shem, to at least weaken him for shooting and for the next turn.
Plus, this approach beats your Final Transmutation strategy.

Not really. As he has +5 to dispel vs your +4 to cast. It's always going to be a challenge to cast it.

And to actually kill him, you need to down Nagash in a phase, as otherwise, he'll just heal back up. And I speak as someone who has dropped Nagash to 1 wound three times in a game.


A superspell or cannonspam is still the best/only way most armies can deal with him. To this day, the only time I've seen Nagash die, is to a dwarf gunline. And that is the only time anyone has cheered a dwarf army. And this is at a tournament.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
Not really. As he has +5 to dispel vs your +4 to cast. It's always going to be a challenge to cast it.

And to actually kill him, you need to down Nagash in a phase, as otherwise, he'll just heal back up. And I speak as someone who has dropped Nagash to 1 wound three times in a game.

A superspell or cannonspam is still the best/only way most armies can deal with him. To this day, the only time I've seen Nagash die, is to a dwarf gunline. And that is the only time anyone has cheered a dwarf army. And this is at a tournament.

+5 to cast. You teleport inside woods. If you drop him to 1 or 2 wounds, you can try to finish him with shooting.

Vetril wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:
Not really. As he has +5 to dispel vs your +4 to cast. It's always going to be a challenge to cast it.

And to actually kill him, you need to down Nagash in a phase, as otherwise, he'll just heal back up. And I speak as someone who has dropped Nagash to 1 wound three times in a game.

A superspell or cannonspam is still the best/only way most armies can deal with him. To this day, the only time I've seen Nagash die, is to a dwarf gunline. And that is the only time anyone has cheered a dwarf army. And this is at a tournament.

+5 to cast. You teleport inside woods. If you drop him to 1 or 2 wounds, you can try to finish him with shooting.

So you're dicing off then? That's not reliable. Nor is relying on Ballistic shooting without rerolls to wound.

It is reliable. He has less dispel dice. He won't be able to block everything.

Vetril wrote:
It is reliable. He has less dispel dice. He won't be able to block everything.

He blocks the banishments. He has the dice to make sure of that. Nothing else in the magic phase threatens him with light councils.

And heaven forbid we exchange Nagash for KFA.