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Wonder how this thread go if the kid actually had a real weapon and shot the cop who thought the kid was armed with a toy gun

 Psienesis wrote:


But every department that has a Wilson and, worse still, knows it, and is covering for someone like that... that's a problem.

You have utterly no proof of this.

It's a problem when a community that is 60%+ of one ethnic group does not have similar representation of that ethnic group in its police force.

And that's a problem of minorities not wanting to become police officers. Precincts all over the US have been practically begging for more minorities and females on the force. They can't MAKE people apply.

And it's not just events that culminate in someone's death. There's plenty of evidence to indicate that police departments across the country are basically havens for bigots, and these are just the ones we got to learn about! Not all of the below are violent cops, but simply a range of the police basically doing whatever-the-feth they want, regardless of the legality of their actions:

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/06/03/watch-two-texas-police-officers-fired-after-being-caught-on-tape-beating-woman-slamming-her-head-into-countertop/
http://www.military.com/video/law-enforcement/police/phoenix-cop-fired-for-bad-behavior/2551559789001/
http://photographyisnotacrime.com/2013/09/ohio-cop-caught-camera-terrorizing-family-bizarre-video/
http://live.huffingtonpost.com/r/segment/kern-county-police-brutality/519392482b8c2a259500017f
http://aattp.org/caught-on-tape-texas-cop-executes-handcuffed-suspect-video/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8ssCmc238s
http://copsbreakingthelaw.com/2009/07/lax-police-repeatedly-taser-unarmed-senior-citizen/

... and that took me a few minutes on Google to find. The events reported above are not particularly uncommon. The days of Mayberry cops are long, long gone.

Pretty easy to leave every one of those without context, eh?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jihadin wrote:
Wonder how this thread go if the kid actually had a real weapon and shot the cop who thought the kid was armed with a toy gun

We'd never have heard about it.

 Psienesis wrote:
The police of the United States are not, in the main, deserving of respect. They are little more than jack-booted thugs.

Obviously you have never encountered the Russian police. American police only murder innocent people. Russian police will frame, rob, imprison, torture and only then murder innocent people. Then they will get started on robbing their family. And if you are a f̶a̶s̶c̶i̶s̶t̶ ̶s̶p̶y̶ foreigner, things will be even worse. Cossacks are much friendlier. They will only burn down your house after they have whipped you into coma.
But at the very least even the infamously brutal Russian police has never thrown grenades into baby's cradles or shot innocent 92 year old women after brutally raiding their house and fabricating evidence. Nor do they drive around in tanks or use special forces to execute extremely violent military-style raids on people barbering without license.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

But at the very least even the infamously brutal Russian police has never thrown grenades into baby's cradles or shot innocent 92 year old women after brutally raiding their house and fabricating evidence. Nor do they drive around in tanks or use special forces to execute extremely violent military-style raids on people barbering without license.

That baby was concealing chemical weapons in it's diaper. Had it coming.

 CptJake wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
, the thread might as well be locked now.

again, own what you say, or be more careful about what you say. its clear what the intent of these words were.

The intent of those words was to convey the idea that if we're just going to spend page after page debating things that I didn't actually say, there is no point continuing the thread. That's not a threat to lock the thread. It's a statement that the thread is pointless if it continues down that road.

I'm more than happy to 'own what I say'. I'm less ecstatic about owning what you insist I meant even though I didn't actually say it.

You're a moderator. When you mention locking a thread, it definitely will come across as a threat to use your mod powers to lock the thread. You are either one of the worst at communicating via the written word or dishonest as all heck.

Now now childrens lets below be mellow. Insaniak has a cat as an avatar. He clearly under a bad, bad spell.
I have a cure. But first I need an old dog and a young dog.
And bacon. Lots of bacon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

That baby was concealing chemical weapons in it's diaper.

I for one can vouch for that. Babies, Nature's WMDs...

For some of the earlier posts the term "shoot to kill" rarely if not never shows up in police training, they use the term shoot to stop. The highest chance of stopping a violent crime is to aim for center mass more often then not stopping the crime.

I have seen someone shot and not know they were shot. I have seen someone walk up a flight of stairs after being shot in the ankle and shattering a bone. Bone chuncks were sticking out the front of the foot and he was still able to function.

I have heard of people being tased and not going done until they got hit two more times. I have seen people get pepper sprayed and just get mad instead of closing their eyes and hitting the ground. Not everyone reacts the same ways to none deadly force.

Elementary school kids in my town have brought guns to school. I know kids in my high school had guns on them. Another kid had a pistol in his hooded sweatshirt pocket and shot a round in the classroom. A kid 12 years old with a gun is just as deadly as an adult with a gun.

I will not dispute that this is a sad situation, indeed it was. But I don't for one second think that the officer made a bad choice. Nor do I think, if proven in the right, that he should lose his job because he followed his training.

No gun is a toy, and at an early age all children, if around guns, should be taught that all guns real or fake should be treated as if they were loaded even if they are not or can't be. BB guns get no exception as being fake, they can hurt people and should never be pointed at something you are not willing to shoot. Deliberately removing the Orange safety tip was done in the sole purpose to make the gun look real, and as far as I know it is real at that point. The police should and will not wait to be shot before protecting themselves and others.

The security footage from the rec center was released by the Cleveland Police. The only thing of note is that there are a few points where he is pointing with his right arm extended.

Edit: saw the last video the cops pull up and get out. They have guns drawn and pointing at Tamir. The cop who shot Tamir moves in and looks like Jes.kicking something away.

The car blocks the entire incident so its near impossible to see what Tamir actually does.

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

But every department that has a Wilson and, worse still, knows it, and is covering for someone like that... that's a problem.

Really... It's a problem that an officer like Wilson defends himself? Was he really supposed to just let a man who outweighs him by some 20 or so pounds just have his way...



Yes, there are places with bad officers, and I agree with your sentiment about them, however I completely disagree that Wilson is in that category. If anyone is in that category, it's that dude from California that went down in a blaze of glory (I forget his name though)

Wilson wasn't defending himself, and was armed with not only his service weapon, a baton, and a taser, but also a g-d car that he hit the other guy with the door of. Wilson picked a fight with these two people and then shot one when the guy didn't simply say "Yes, massa, as you say massa".

For some of the earlier posts the term "shoot to kill" rarely if not never shows up in police training, they use the term shoot to stop. The highest chance of stopping a violent crime is to aim for center mass more often then not stopping the crime.

"Shoot to stop" that directs someone to aim centermass is another way of saying "shoot to kill". Center Mass is where the military trains you to aim as well, as it's the largest target and one very likely to cause fatality (as you take out either the heart, one or both lungs, or all three). In other words, "shoot to stop" is a euphemism for "shoot to kill".

Obviously you have never encountered the Russian police

We have things sorta like Cossacks in the US, they just aren't as effective anymore. They're also getting butt-stomped by Anonymous in a cyberwar at the moment.

 Psienesis wrote:

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

But every department that has a Wilson and, worse still, knows it, and is covering for someone like that... that's a problem.

Really... It's a problem that an officer like Wilson defends himself? Was he really supposed to just let a man who outweighs him by some 20 or so pounds just have his way...



Yes, there are places with bad officers, and I agree with your sentiment about them, however I completely disagree that Wilson is in that category. If anyone is in that category, it's that dude from California that went down in a blaze of glory (I forget his name though)

Wilson wasn't defending himself, and was armed with not only his service weapon, a baton, and a taser, but also a g-d car that he hit the other guy with the door of. Wilson picked a fight with these two people and then shot one when the guy didn't simply say "Yes, massa, as you say massa".

Actually, Wilson did not have a taser, and that is just a tiny example of how inaccurate your post is.

 Psienesis wrote:


Wilson wasn't defending himself, and was armed with not only his service weapon, a baton, and a taser, but also a g-d car that he hit the other guy with the door of. Wilson picked a fight with these two people and then shot one when the guy didn't simply say "Yes, massa, as you say massa".

Well a whole lot of that isn't true. Well done.

 CptJake wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

But every department that has a Wilson and, worse still, knows it, and is covering for someone like that... that's a problem.

Really... It's a problem that an officer like Wilson defends himself? Was he really supposed to just let a man who outweighs him by some 20 or so pounds just have his way...



Yes, there are places with bad officers, and I agree with your sentiment about them, however I completely disagree that Wilson is in that category. If anyone is in that category, it's that dude from California that went down in a blaze of glory (I forget his name though)

Wilson wasn't defending himself, and was armed with not only his service weapon, a baton, and a taser, but also a g-d car that he hit the other guy with the door of. Wilson picked a fight with these two people and then shot one when the guy didn't simply say "Yes, massa, as you say massa".

Actually, Wilson did not have a taser, and that is just a tiny example of how inaccurate your post is.

But he did have pepperspray, which he decided not to use.

You seem to be taking Wilson's statements at his word, and not what the eyewitnesses of the event have had corroborated. While there's some discrepancy over the events of the shooting, there's none over the instigation of the contact.

 Psienesis wrote:
We have things sorta like Cossacks in the US, they just aren't as effective anymore. They're also getting butt-stomped by Anonymous in a cyberwar at the moment.

Are you comparing Cossacks to the KKK?

 Psienesis wrote:

 CptJake wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

But every department that has a Wilson and, worse still, knows it, and is covering for someone like that... that's a problem.

Really... It's a problem that an officer like Wilson defends himself? Was he really supposed to just let a man who outweighs him by some 20 or so pounds just have his way...



Yes, there are places with bad officers, and I agree with your sentiment about them, however I completely disagree that Wilson is in that category. If anyone is in that category, it's that dude from California that went down in a blaze of glory (I forget his name though)

Wilson wasn't defending himself, and was armed with not only his service weapon, a baton, and a taser, but also a g-d car that he hit the other guy with the door of. Wilson picked a fight with these two people and then shot one when the guy didn't simply say "Yes, massa, as you say massa".

Actually, Wilson did not have a taser, and that is just a tiny example of how inaccurate your post is.

But he did have pepperspray, which he decided not to use.

You seem to be taking Wilson's statements at his word, and not what the eyewitnesses of the event have had corroborated. While there's some discrepancy over the events of the shooting, there's none over the instigation of the contact.

Did you even try to read the Grand Jury report?

If you had... you'd know that you're wrong.

 Psienesis wrote:

 CptJake wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

But every department that has a Wilson and, worse still, knows it, and is covering for someone like that... that's a problem.

Really... It's a problem that an officer like Wilson defends himself? Was he really supposed to just let a man who outweighs him by some 20 or so pounds just have his way...



Yes, there are places with bad officers, and I agree with your sentiment about them, however I completely disagree that Wilson is in that category. If anyone is in that category, it's that dude from California that went down in a blaze of glory (I forget his name though)

Wilson wasn't defending himself, and was armed with not only his service weapon, a baton, and a taser, but also a g-d car that he hit the other guy with the door of. Wilson picked a fight with these two people and then shot one when the guy didn't simply say "Yes, massa, as you say massa".

Actually, Wilson did not have a taser, and that is just a tiny example of how inaccurate your post is.

But he did have pepperspray, which he decided not to use.

You seem to be taking Wilson's statements at his word, and not what the eyewitnesses of the event have had corroborated. While there's some discrepancy over the events of the shooting, there's none over the instigation of the contact.

You mean besides the eye witnesses that support Wilson's statements?

 Alfndrate wrote:
The security footage from the rec center was released by the Cleveland Police. The only thing of note is that there are a few points where he is pointing with his right arm extended.

Edit: saw the last video the cops pull up and get out. They have guns drawn and pointing at Tamir. The cop who shot Tamir moves in and looks like Jes.kicking something away.

The car blocks the entire incident so its near impossible to see what Tamir actually does.

Is there any video actually showing what Tamir was doing?

This thread was nothing but a circular argument for many pages already, and now it's just completely off-topic.

Can we lock this thing yet?

 d-usa wrote:
This thread was nothing but a circular argument for many pages already, and now it's just completely off-topic.

Can we lock this thing yet?

Probably not yet as the videos where released.

i still needa watch it.

 whembly wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:
The security footage from the rec center was released by the Cleveland Police. The only thing of note is that there are a few points where he is pointing with his right arm extended.

Edit: saw the last video the cops pull up and get out. They have guns drawn and pointing at Tamir. The cop who shot Tamir moves in and looks like Jes.kicking something away.

The car blocks the entire incident so its near impossible to see what Tamir actually does.

Is there any video actually showing what Tamir was doing?

The video is terrible quality as one might expect, but it shows Tamir walking around this gazebo. He has something in his right hand, could be a phone, could be the airsoft gun (really tough to tell). He extends his right arm out at a few points and points it to some spot off screen (may have been at someone, idk). Then with about 30 seconds left in the video the officers pull up on to the grass and get out. Tamir looks as if he is reaching for his wasitband, the video jumps a bit and the cops are using their car as a defensive position. One of the cops moves to his left, circles around to what appears to be a trashcan and then moves to Tamir (who is on the far side of the car).

Full video is here: It might be hard to watch because I think everyone in Cleveland is hitting this website
http://www.newsnet5.com/news/local-news/cleveland-metro/tamir-rice-shooitng-video-warning-cleveland-police-release-surveillance-video

 Psienesis wrote:

Wilson wasn't defending himself, and was armed with not only his service weapon, a baton, and a taser, but also a g-d car that he hit the other guy with the door of. Wilson picked a fight with these two people and then shot one when the guy didn't simply say "Yes, massa, as you say massa".

Way to bring racism in to it. If you have any proof of any racism on the part of the police officer in either case then please do share it, preferably with the DA too, as I'm sure t would prove useful in serving justice. Otherwise that kind of language is very unhelpful and uncalled for.

 Alfndrate wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:
The security footage from the rec center was released by the Cleveland Police. The only thing of note is that there are a few points where he is pointing with his right arm extended.

Edit: saw the last video the cops pull up and get out. They have guns drawn and pointing at Tamir. The cop who shot Tamir moves in and looks like Jes.kicking something away.

The car blocks the entire incident so its near impossible to see what Tamir actually does.

Is there any video actually showing what Tamir was doing?

The video is terrible quality as one might expect, but it shows Tamir walking around this gazebo. He has something in his right hand, could be a phone, could be the airsoft gun (really tough to tell). He extends his right arm out at a few points and points it to some spot off screen (may have been at someone, idk). Then with about 30 seconds left in the video the officers pull up on to the grass and get out. Tamir looks as if he is reaching for his wasitband, the video jumps a bit and the cops are using their car as a defensive position. One of the cops moves to his left, circles around to what appears to be a trashcan and then moves to Tamir (who is on the far side of the car).

Full video is here: It might be hard to watch because I think everyone in Cleveland is hitting this website
http://www.newsnet5.com/news/local-news/cleveland-metro/tamir-rice-shooitng-video-warning-cleveland-police-release-surveillance-video

Thanks buddy...

*note: can't strream it yet.

If only he had a prior criminal record, was over 6ft tall 300lbs, and minutes before the shooting was engaged in a strong arm robbery we could have had another angelic martyr like Micheal Brown.

 Alfndrate wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:
The security footage from the rec center was released by the Cleveland Police. The only thing of note is that there are a few points where he is pointing with his right arm extended.

Edit: saw the last video the cops pull up and get out. They have guns drawn and pointing at Tamir. The cop who shot Tamir moves in and looks like Jes.kicking something away.

The car blocks the entire incident so its near impossible to see what Tamir actually does.

Is there any video actually showing what Tamir was doing?

The video is terrible quality as one might expect, but it shows Tamir walking around this gazebo. He has something in his right hand, could be a phone, could be the airsoft gun (really tough to tell). He extends his right arm out at a few points and points it to some spot off screen (may have been at someone, idk). Then with about 30 seconds left in the video the officers pull up on to the grass and get out. Tamir looks as if he is reaching for his wasitband, the video jumps a bit and the cops are using their car as a defensive position. One of the cops moves to his left, circles around to what appears to be a trashcan and then moves to Tamir (who is on the far side of the car).

Full video is here: It might be hard to watch because I think everyone in Cleveland is hitting this website
http://www.newsnet5.com/news/local-news/cleveland-metro/tamir-rice-shooitng-video-warning-cleveland-police-release-surveillance-video

How long before someone claims the cops were safe as they had a car to hide behind?

The police car pulls up at 5:30 into the video. Before that, you can see a lot of video of the person waving the "gun" around... obviously a grainy video, but the gun looks convincing.

I'm just not sure why the police pull up so close if they think he had a gun, rather than keeping back a bit... but when they pull up, even in the grainy video you can seem him clearly reach for it.

What an unfortunate event... it was good of the family to let the video be released to just show what happened as clearly as possible. A tragedy that it ended like it did but I don't think the officers can be blamed for reacting, given what is visible in the video. However, I'm not sure about their approach entering the scene since they knew this person was supposed to be armed...

If you search YouTube for Tamir Rice shooting you can see the video there, and YouTube's servers may be better able to handle the traffic.

As a general note, let's keep discussion in this thread focused on this incident - there are others for discussing the Michael Brown, etc case.

This is a case where a 12 year old died. Even if the police are not at fault, it's a tragedy and I think we should try to be respectful of that if at all possible... thanks.

 RiTides wrote:


I'm just not sure why the police pull up so close if they think he had a gun, rather than keeping back a bit... but when they pull up, even in the grainy video you can seem him clearly reach for it.

I don't know how these cops are trained, but I could see that if you approach from too far away you could easily end up with a shoot out at long distances (greatly increasing chances of stray rounds going all over the place) and of a chase (since the cops can only come at him from one direction, he has plenty of running options).

By pulling up fast and close you gain some element of surprise/shock and the close distance may help some.

Having said all that, I freely admit to not knowing what the cops intention/reasons were.

They are in the difficult position of having to keep enough distance for safety and get close enough to establish control of the scene and situation, and do it quickly enough to provide an element of surprise that makes it safer for them and prevent a possible suspect from getting away.

So many different things that have to go through your mind.

I suspect that it would have to do with placing them at a range close enough for them to actually reach and apprehend the suspect. First most cops can't chase people very far on foot, nor would they cover large areas of open ground while potentially being shot at. Pistols are not terribly accurate at a distance either, it makes it harder to land the shots where you need and also increases the chances of stray fire and collateral damage or fatalities.

If you need to take somebody down and cuff them you usually need to be quite close in order to control the suspects actions, you can't do that at a distance.

 d-usa wrote:
They are in the difficult position of having to keep enough distance for safety and get close enough to establish control of the scene and situation, and do it quickly enough to provide an element of surprise that makes it safer for them and prevent a possible suspect from getting away.

So many different things that have to go through your mind.

You have no idea what your rolling into if just given bare facts so the brain goes into over drive going over a truck load of scenario's you might encounter.

I can see the LEO getting mind locked on "suspect with possible fire arm"

 Jihadin wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
They are in the difficult position of having to keep enough distance for safety and get close enough to establish control of the scene and situation, and do it quickly enough to provide an element of surprise that makes it safer for them and prevent a possible suspect from getting away.

So many different things that have to go through your mind.

You have no idea what your rolling into if just given bare facts so the brain goes into over drive going over a truck load of scenario's you might encounter.

I can see the LEO getting mind locked on "suspect with possible fire arm"

It's also well known that intense situations cause the body to produce a much higher amount of adrenaline. Lots of adrenaline makes you a far less accurate shot than when you're simply on the training range, shooting at a completely non-threatening paper/whatever target.

Also, men naturally produce a lot more adrenaline than women, hence why women are actually more accurate shooters in general.