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2014/12/02 05:29:05
Subject: 12 year old shot and killed by police for waving toy gun in Cleveland
1) You keep using the word "child" like it should be a factor. Its 100% irrelevant.
2) Assumptions like the one you propose will get way more people killed.
Of course its a factor.
If you see a kid in a park with a handgun, what's more likely? That it's a kid setting out to shoot people with a real firearm? Or that it's a kid playing around?
I want to point out how irresponsible some parents are in securing live fire arms. We have multiple threads regarding how kids get a hold of weapons
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
2014/12/02 05:32:19
Subject: Re:12 year old shot and killed by police for waving toy gun in Cleveland
1) You keep using the word "child" like it should be a factor. Its 100% irrelevant.
2) Assumptions like the one you propose will get way more people killed.
Of course its a factor.
If you see a kid in a park with a handgun, what's more likely? That it's a kid setting out to shoot people with a real firearm? Or that it's a kid playing around?
1) You keep using the word "child" like it should be a factor. Its 100% irrelevant.
2) Assumptions like the one you propose will get way more people killed.
Of course its a factor.
If you see a kid in a park with a handgun, what's more likely? That it's a kid setting out to shoot people with a real firearm? Or that it's a kid playing around?
I lost my faith in humanity from seeing Somalia, Bosnia, Kosovo, Iraq and Afghanistan
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
2014/12/02 05:39:16
Subject: 12 year old shot and killed by police for waving toy gun in Cleveland
Yep, so that's 5. And while those were happening, how many kids around the country were playing with guns that weren't real?
Grey Templar wrote: A kid playing around with a gun is honestly just as dangerous as a guy deliberately trying to shoot you.
...if it's a real gun. Which it's not likely to be.
And if he really is just a kid playing, he would do what the police officers pointing definitely real guns at him were telling him to do.
Which brings us right back to kids doing unpredictable things when they panic.
I dunno. Maybe I need to just chalk this up as one of those cultural things... Our countries are similar in a lot of ways, and completely alien in other, often unexpected ways. And the idea that we should assume that every kid we see with a gun must be just waiting for the opportunity to shoot someone? That's one of the alien ones, and makes me glad I live where I do. For all this country's faults, at least I'm not going to fear for my life if I happen to see a couple of kids playing cops and robbers in the park..
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/02 05:40:36
2014/12/02 05:40:29
Subject: 12 year old shot and killed by police for waving toy gun in Cleveland
And finally, no. This was not a kid playing in a park. It was a guy brandishing a gun and scaring people with it. Look at the pictures, he's not a cute little kid. He could easily have been 16-17.
In fact, if you listen to the dispatch call, the officer says, "Shots fired. Male down. Black Male. Maybe 20. Black handgun by him. Send EMS this way."
2014/12/02 05:42:20
Subject: Re:12 year old shot and killed by police for waving toy gun in Cleveland
Jihadin wrote: I lost my faith in humanity from seeing Somalia, Bosnia, Kosovo, Iraq and Afghanistan
Well duh. Those are interesting places.
I know you were a service men so basically yes, I would expect you would have. I know a lot of military guys who come back, after working at a place that works with PTSD soldiers, I have some experience in that regard. just hearing the stories was enough for me to have night terrors. *sigh* Then I got PTSD and the whole thing came full circle hurray. *Grumble* but anyway Humanity has lost my faith in it a while ago.
I am going to place To The Moon to restore it and cry like a baby.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/12/02 05:43:22
Subject: 12 year old shot and killed by police for waving toy gun in Cleveland
Grey Templar wrote: A kid playing around with a gun is honestly just as dangerous as a guy deliberately trying to shoot you.
...if it's a real gun. Which it's not likely to be.
And how exactly do you know that?
Are you willing to be the guy who didn't shoot the guy before he fired off a round which injures of maims a kid 200 yards down the street or leaves your(or your buddy's) wife and kids without a husband or father?
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Grey Templar wrote: A kid playing around with a gun is honestly just as dangerous as a guy deliberately trying to shoot you.
...if it's a real gun. Which it's not likely to be.
And how exactly do you know that?
Are you willing to be the guy who didn't shoot the guy before he fired off a round which injures of maims a kid 200 yards down the street or leaves your(or your buddy's) wife and kids without a husband or father?
Sadly I actually know of a kid who shot himself, well Knew that is. You don't recover from a bullet through the head. Kid thought it was a toy. But techincally it wasn't personal relation just hearing about it.
Kids will reach for things that they shouldn't. Thats why they should always be surprivised if there is a weapon in the house.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/12/02 05:50:54
Subject: Re:12 year old shot and killed by police for waving toy gun in Cleveland
CptJake wrote: I take it you have never undergone active shooter training?
Does it have anything to do with treating someone as if they are brandishing a weapon when they are not, based on nothing more than hearsay? Because if not, I'm not seeing the relevance of the question.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Relapse wrote: This thread is going around in circles now with the mind readers and people able to time travel and read tomorrow's news stories or those saying a cop should be happy to get shot, clearly ensconced.
Seriously, can we please dispense with the 'mind reading' nonsense?
Nobody is asking for anyone to read minds. It doesn't take a mind reader to ascertain that somebody who isn't currently waving a gun around is not, in fact, currently waving a gun around.
Thats exactly what they are doing. Guy in winter clothing is IN FACT WAVING A GUN AROUND.
Grey Templar wrote: No, but you are suggesting that they should have waited and seen, which is to assume that it is harmless.
Which isn't a crazy assumption to make. Unless we're going to accept police treating every child they see with a toy gun as a potential mass murderer.
Who's mind reading now?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/02 12:05:57
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2014/12/02 12:06:38
Subject: 12 year old shot and killed by police for waving toy gun in Cleveland
There's no reasoning with mind readers and time travelers. I think I'll just check in every now and then without posting and let this thread die the death.
2014/12/02 12:12:50
Subject: 12 year old shot and killed by police for waving toy gun in Cleveland
1) You keep using the word "child" like it should be a factor. Its 100% irrelevant.
2) Assumptions like the one you propose will get way more people killed.
Of course its a factor.
If you see a kid in a park with a handgun, what's more likely? That it's a kid setting out to shoot people with a real firearm? Or that it's a kid playing around?
Faith in humanity is now gone. Have you seen what you have done :(
Wait you have faith in humanity?
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2014/12/02 12:13:27
Subject: 12 year old shot and killed by police for waving toy gun in Cleveland
So did the kid actually pull the gun or only reach for it? If he pulled the gun it could have been to put it on the floor.
Sure that's not a sensible action but this is a kid we're talking about. Think back to how you reacted when adults shouted at you when you were a kid, willing to bet its not completely sensible and rational. And, quite frankly, shouting at anyone who is possibly armed and dangerous when it is not necessary due to noise levels seems like a really bad move which will escalate the situation, more often than not.
What if the kid was reaching for his ID or just needed to scratch?
Should the police shoot anyone who reaches for their trousers just in case they have a concealed firearm?
Looking at the video, the kid isn't waving it around as the police arrive. They pull up, he reaches towards his waist (which could be towards his trousers or coat pocket) and then the police officer shoots him as he is getting out of the car. There is no way they had enough time to give him any understandable commands multiple times before shooting him.
Also, he did not have the gun out so a taser was a possible non-lethal option. Hell, at that distance the police officer could have tackled the kid.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/12/02 12:21:17
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1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
2014/12/02 12:42:53
Subject: Re:12 year old shot and killed by police for waving toy gun in Cleveland
I can't help but think, that things might have gone differently in a different country where the likelihood of a 12-year old actually being in possession of a real gun is close to zero.
...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/02 13:01:55
-------------------------------------------------------
"He died because he had no honor. He had no honor and the Emperor was watching."
There's that omniscient time traveling knowledge again.
I feel these kind of comments are unnecessarily adversarial. Insisting 100% that there was nothing the cop (or anyone) could have done is equally omniscient. I agree with you that it seems unlikely things could have been different since the police were following protocol. But when that protocol leads to a 12 year old kid playing in the park, being gunned down, then it is worth discussing how it might be improved, instead of just shouting people down and popping the face palm smiley.
No one is saying the cop should be prosecuted. We all know that the shooting can absolutely be justified. But maybe it could also have been avoided. Even if the kid had been 20, and did have a real gun, the decision to use lethal force first is still questionable. In fact driving right up within a few feet of an armed man seems pretty reckless anyway. What did they think was going to happen?
2014/12/02 13:09:08
Subject: Re:12 year old shot and killed by police for waving toy gun in Cleveland
I can't help but think, that things might have gone differently in a different country where the likelihood of a 12-year old actually being in possession of a real gun is close to zero.
I thought about this a few times too, but I feared that mentioning it in this forum would get my throat bitten off.
In fact driving right up within a few feet of an armed man seems pretty reckless anyway.
Why? The effective range of a hand gun is limited. There is no other choice but to get close. It puts the police at more risk, but much reduces the risk of stray bullets or it turning in to a firefight. If the police are close they have the chance to physically tackle the offender, or use a tazer. If they are a long way away there is much more chance of it becoming a shoot out. The problem in this case is the kid went for the gun before the police had chance to do anything. Had he not grabbed the gun for another 5-10 seconds they would probably have jumped on him and it would all have ended differently.
I can't help but think, that things might have gone differently in a different country where the likelihood of a 12-year old actually being in possession of a real gun is close to zero.
I thought about this a few times too, but I feared that mentioning it in this forum would get my throat bitten off.
Oh well, here goes nothing, I guess.
Unlikely. Had this been in the UK somewhere with high crime levels and gang problems, much like Cleveland, and the situation had been the same, the outcome would probably have been the same. If it was somewhere like Peckham or Croxteth and police had been called out to a kid waving what looked like a real gun, and the kid had reached for it seconds after they stopped, the outcome may well have been the same. I can't speak for every country int he world, but whilst the odds of most kids in the UK ever gettign hold of a gun are zero, in some areas with high levels of gang activity and violent crime, some children in that gang culture are not only likely to be aware of hand guns, but are often used to store them. It is often an early job given to young gang members.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/02 13:28:28
insaniak wrote: Sometimes, Exterminatus is the only option.
And sometimes, it's just a case of too much scotch combined with too many buttons...
2014/12/02 13:39:35
Subject: Re:12 year old shot and killed by police for waving toy gun in Cleveland
I can't help but think, that things might have gone differently in a different country where the likelihood of a 12-year old actually being in possession of a real gun is close to zero.
...
How about in a different country where the likelihood of a real gun was close to 100%?
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2014/12/02 15:27:24
Subject: Re:12 year old shot and killed by police for waving toy gun in Cleveland
Insisting 100% that there was nothing the cop (or anyone) could have done is equally omniscient. I agree with you that it seems unlikely things could have been different since the police were following protocol. But when that protocol leads to a 12 year old kid playing in the park, being gunned down, then it is worth discussing how it might be improved, instead of just shouting people down and popping the face palm smiley.
No one is saying the cop should be prosecuted. We all know that the shooting can absolutely be justified. But maybe it could also have been avoided. Even if the kid had been 20, and did have a real gun, the decision to use lethal force first is still questionable. In fact driving right up within a few feet of an armed man seems pretty reckless anyway. What did they think was going to happen?
I agree with you on some of these things. Given the protocol as they stand, this went down exactly as it was "supposed" to. Now, if we ask ourselves what "needs" to change? Perhaps it's actually nothing, perhaps it is something. Perhaps it's more police "training" in schools (as in, officers talking gun safety and what to do when police show up around you type stuff... not just the pointless anti-drug D.A.R.E. crap)
I am of the belief that, if the involved parties are correct in the way things went down, that nothing really needs to change, except the culture that some groups have regarding "feth the police". It could be that very "culture" that lead to a kid reaching for a gun, instead of complying with lawful orders from LEOs.
2014/12/02 15:29:04
Subject: Re:12 year old shot and killed by police for waving toy gun in Cleveland
I can't help but think, that things might have gone differently in a different country where the likelihood of a 12-year old actually being in possession of a real gun is close to zero.
...
How about in a different country where the likelihood of a real gun was close to 100%?
I see we agree.
Yes, I think that in such a country things would also have gone differently to what we saw in this particular situation.....just in the opposite direction of what I am suggesting.
-------------------------------------------------------
"He died because he had no honor. He had no honor and the Emperor was watching."
In fact driving right up within a few feet of an armed man seems pretty reckless anyway.
Why? The effective range of a hand gun is limited.
All the more reason to not get close.
There is no other choice but to get close.
What? the police don't have rifles, shotguns and megaphones anymore? What happened to all those military style vehicles the police are supposed to have. Or is that just too much effort to save a black kids life?
Had it been a hostage situation, where "kill everyone" was not an acceptable solution. Then they would never have rolled up there with guns drawn. It would be asking for trouble.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/02 15:36:56
2014/12/02 15:42:55
Subject: Re:12 year old shot and killed by police for waving toy gun in Cleveland
Smacks wrote: What? the police don't have rifles, shotguns and megaphones anymore? What happened to all those military style vehicles the police are supposed to have. Or is that just too much effort to save a black kids life?
Had it been a hostage situation, where "kill everyone" was not an acceptable solution. Then they would never have rolled up there with guns drawn. It would be asking for trouble.
EOF dude.... Seriously, police can't just willy nilly "I feel like carrying the rifle today...hurrr". And what good does a megaphone do? Unless you're in a hostage situation... even then, more police prefer a cell phone, or land line phone, so that the rest of the neighborhood isn't hearing/dealing with the hostage situation as well.
All those "military style vehicles", as well as the rifles and such are, again EOF measures that this situation clearly didn't warrant.
Ohh, and the initial 911 call did not say, hint or even suggest a hostage situation.... so why bring it up?
2014/12/02 15:44:33
Subject: Re:12 year old shot and killed by police for waving toy gun in Cleveland
What? the police don't have rifles, shotguns and megaphones anymore? What happened to all those military style vehicles the police are supposed to have. Or is that just too much effort to save a black kids life?
Are you for real?
This was an ON PATROL car responding to a call.
My incredulity at this statement is mind boggling I'm not even sure how to respond.
2014/12/02 15:47:41
Subject: Re:12 year old shot and killed by police for waving toy gun in Cleveland