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Basically i would like to know if there's a way to run FOC adhering guard with the scions, bullgryns and ratlings, what i consider to be the great stuff, but without the regular guardman or the loads of tanks?

I ask this cause the Guard elite choices look great but the rest just seems a little boring to me.

Thanks!

Taffy17 wrote:
Basically i would like to know if there's a way to run FOC adhering guard with the scions, bullgryns and ratlings, what i consider to be the great stuff, but without the regular guardman or the loads of tanks?

I ask this cause the Guard elite choices look great but the rest just seems a little boring to me.

Thanks!

Boring is basically the byword for the Guard codex these days, much to my, and many others, chagrin.

As for your question, while you can run minimal guardsmen in favour of the Elites choices (Stormtroopers in particular are easy to run en-masse, as they have their own platoon structure, and are incidentally the only source of orders outside of your HQ or normal platoons) , as for their effectiveness, well....

Stormtroopers are better than they used to be in some regards, but worse in others. Their stock guns are quick lackluster, but can take two special weapons, and thus present reasonable firepower, but are somewhat wasted against anything that isn't an MEQ given you pay out the nose for those AP3 flashlights in a codex which is already flush with AP3 or better. That being said, move through cover and carapace armour will let them move and stay alive better than normal guard; they can take more hits directly, and can get into lift-saving cover more easily. I still wouldn't rely on them as the "core" of any army, however, even when playing casual.

Ratlings used to be one of my favourite units; stealth BS4 snipers for 10 points a pop? Glorious in 5th and 6th edition. However, snipers have lost pinning and the ability to pen light vehicles, and ignores cover has become as common as dirt, if the enemy has any reason to fear them, they'll simply exterminate them, and if not, they're just an ok distraction unit. Only really worthwhile if you regularly face monstrous creatures.

Ogryns/Bullgryns are one of those units which is good on paper until you see their points cost. They've got great offensive output, decent durability, but a bad armour save and very high price-per-model makes them ultimately unattractive. Not abominable, but thuroughly mediocre. The lack of any transport will really single them out for destruction; like ratlings, if the opponent has any reason to fear them, they'll just exterminate them. Above-average toughness and multi-wound really doesn't save anyone in the current environment of power creep. They aren't terrible, however, if you play more casually with people who make a conscious effort to avoid some of the more broken stuff out there.

If you want to play "elite" guard, the codex only really offers one viable approach if you have any interest in winning once in a while; veterans in chimeras decked out with special weapons. Point for point, "Mech-vets" remains one of the best mobile armies out there; can't match the speed, firepower or durability of Eldar but they're a points-efficient option with enough plasma and melta to make a Marine army green with envy. If you really don't want to play mechanized, vets on foot with their unique upgrades aren't awful either, not as competitive, but (in my opinion) a little more fun, requiring more thought on your part to pull of the win, but still packing potentially enormous firepower per unit, considering their cost.

Guard Elite choices have a good deal of cool factor, but they're also generally amongst the least capable, most overpriced, and most support-requiring options in the book.

Scions look neat, but that S3 gun and shortened 18" rapid fire range, on top of having otherwise identical statlines to normal guardsmen and costing as much as Space Marines doesn't cut it. Ogryns/Bullgryns likewise require babysitting or they're going to get driven off the field with crappy Ld, and still cost more than most things with similar stats (for fewer points you can get far scarier Tyranid Warriors which still aren't considered particularly great). Ratlings likewise aren't bad for sniper units, but snipers aren't particularly great.

Either way, you're still going to need at least a couple of Troops units, platoons or Vets. You could try running a Militarum Tempestus list, but that's all Scions only. The best way to really play an "elite" IG army is Vets in Chimeras.

Thanks for the great response.

I was just looking for something that isn't quite as boring as guardsman but isn't as cliche (if thats the right word) as space marines and felt midget snipers, big oafs and elite spec ops hit the sweet spot but from what you've said it sounds pretty difficult to build an army around them unfortunately.

Taffy17 wrote:
Thanks for the great response.

I was just looking for something that isn't quite as boring as guardsman but isn't as cliche (if thats the right word) as space marines and felt midget snipers, big oafs and elite spec ops hit the sweet spot but from what you've said it sounds pretty difficult to build an army around them unfortunately.

This is kind of the tragedy of Guard at the moment; there's basically one viable list in the codex (an increasingly common problem since the Eldar/Tau/Daemons trifecta of broken); mechvets and tanks. That combination is legitimately good, but you really do lack for alternatives which won't fall over and die against most friendly armies, to say nothing of people lacking restraint.

If you're willing to look further afield, check out the Elysian D-99 list in Imperial Armour 4 2nd Edition. I can't vouch for it being the best list of all time, but if you want that unique, spec-ops feel, Forgeworld did a pretty good job there. Genetically modified paratroopers decked out to the nines in service of the Inquisition, tasked with "handling" various nasty alien gribblies. At a glance, they have army-wide deepstriking, BS 4, WS 4, I 4 Guardsmen with preferred enemy against a xeno of your choice (tyranids by default), with "elite" choices equipped with 10 special weapons; flamers or grenade launchers for one, melta/plasma for the other (with monster hunter as an added bonus), sniper squads with 60'' range and nightvision, but no orders or ground vehicles aside from Sentinels and Tauroses (think Halo Warthogs), but increased access to aircraft, all at BS4. It's a fragile army, as nothing has better than a 5+ save, and if you want to use the actual Elysian models it can get expensive (but cheaper than an army of Scions, believe it or not, just barely), but it's got great offensive power, it's unique, and nails the spec-ops feel.

I've seen a bat rep with ogryns + Azrael wrecking face. Don't think they'd be viable on their own. Neither ogryns nor bulgrins. But add in some ally stuff and they've got potential.

Ratlings are great in min squads or squads to infiltrate on objectives and earn VP.

Taffy17 wrote:
Thanks for the great response.

I was just looking for something that isn't quite as boring as guardsman but isn't as cliche (if thats the right word) as space marines and felt midget snipers, big oafs and elite spec ops hit the sweet spot but from what you've said it sounds pretty difficult to build an army around them unfortunately.

Well, Veterans ere still pretty 'elite' and if you like the look of the Scions, you can convert Scions into carapace veterans pretty easily. Have carapace veterans as your core and then add Scions and Ogryns for some flavour and extra punch.

It's called Space marines.

Zsolt wrote:
It's called Space marines.

An elite guard of imperial guard is not space marines, read his post, he likes te elite choices and wants to know if they are viable.

 Rippy wrote:

Zsolt wrote:
It's called Space marines.

An elite guard of imperial guard is not space marines, read his post, he likes te elite choices and wants to know if they are viable.

I just wanted to say that with IG you won't get an elite army, they will still be squishy humans no matter what. The most oyu can get out of it that an elite ig can point a plasma gun more reliably. It's not a problem, just if you want to go for elite, you need to look somewhere else. I may be off topic though.

 Crimson wrote:

Taffy17 wrote:
Thanks for the great response.

I was just looking for something that isn't quite as boring as guardsman but isn't as cliche (if thats the right word) as space marines and felt midget snipers, big oafs and elite spec ops hit the sweet spot but from what you've said it sounds pretty difficult to build an army around them unfortunately.

Well, Veterans ere still pretty 'elite' and if you like the look of the Scions, you can convert Scions into carapace veterans pretty easily. Have carapace veterans as your core and then add Scions and Ogryns for some flavour and extra punch.

I think you could do it with vets, carapace armor and loaded with special weapons could make them reasonably tough relative to lots of enemy infantry.

Even at the reduced 7th Ed price scions are just too expensive relative to vets. You can field tons of them since you can weirdly field scion platoons (but not veteran platoons). The problem is that they'll excel vs Tau and not much else. They're priced like marines but have the exact same chance in a fire fight as the marines, but will get womped in cc.