Thinking about starting Warmahordes. What to play

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**AnomanderRake**

Zond wrote:
I want to say thanks for the help. Not taken the plunge yet, but I've narrowed it down to three. I'd either go the Mercnar route and probably do Cygnar and Llael at the same time. I'm tempted by Menoth as they fit my potential playstyles, however also very tempted by Skorne with Minions. Probably collecting both them and Blindwater. Does they have a cool nickname, Skinions, Morne?

Rasheth. Skorne doesn't do highly-minion-focused games with anyone else, most of their warcasters prefer faction infantry.

**LordBlades**

Deadnight wrote:
LordBlades wrote:
I'm still trying to decide between Cygnar and Protectorate, so help me out with something I can't wrap my head around:

So cyganr is good at playing the raged game, right? how exactly does that work?

I mean I skimmed through Cygnar unit stats, and most of them have a range of less than 12. Given that most models have SPD 6, what's stopping the following from happening most of the time: Cygnar shoots, enemy runs into melee range, Cygnar must either take free strikers or fight in melee (which the enemy probably does better).

Am I missing something, or is Cygnar's ranged superiority based on using those few models they have whose range exceeds 12?

Nope, you're correct. Ranges are low. And they're low for a reason. They're designed as such to prevent the game being about two gunlines that park in their deployment zones and lob shots at each other without moving.

'All ranged' and 'only shooting' will never be a thing. It's not what WMH Is about. But shooting has a very vital role as part of a greater plan. You use shooting to blunt the alpha strike, take out infantry and clear charge lanes, you use melee to engage your enemy, inflict massive damage, tarpit, etc.

In your case, cygnar shooty units do their thing, and blast holes in the enemy ranks, then cygnar Mercs or melee infantry move up to engage the survivors, and take any potential counter charge. Meanwhile your spell slingers do their controly shenanigans to prevent hamstring your enemy's ability to engage. Thereby buying another round if shooting.

I see. Thanks for explaining it to me. Only a few more questions (I promise lol):
Where can the official source regarding what mercenary can be taken with what faction be found?

What mercenaries go well with Cygnar? A few example units to look at to get a better feel of how they play would be great.

**Deadnight**

LordBlades wrote:

I see. Thanks for explaining it to me. Only a few more questions (I promise lol):
Where can the official source regarding what mercenary can be taken with what faction be found?

What mercenaries go well with Cygnar? A few example units to look at to get a better feel of how they play would be great.

Battle college lists them under cygnar.

The mercenary entries in the books (and cards) will list who they work for.

War room.

What Mercs go well with cygnar? Two staples seem to be Boomhowler and co., and Nyss hunters. You've also got aiyanna and holt, forge guard, various pirate Mercs, etc. In terms of solos you've got Gorman, eiryss, the piper and various others. Cygnar has huge choice when it comes to mercenaries.

**AnomanderRake**

Starting off with Cygnar either Eiryss (PEiryss if you're expecting to fight just Warmachine, EEiryss if you're expecting more infantry-centric or Hordes armies), Taryn, Rupert, Gorman, Aiyanna/Holt, and Harlan Versh are all solid options for solos that interact well with your in-faction stuff or do things you can't easily do in-faction. Boomhowler gives you a tough heavy infantry unit (one thing Cygnar can't do easily), and Reinholdt is a good learning tool since he gives you the ability to measure more things while you're still learning to eyeball distances.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'd pay particular attention to Taryn and Ayanna/Holt since they have interesting interaction with in-faction stuff instead of just doing things you can't do easily in-faction.

**Mordekiem**

Cygnar is a combined arms faction. Don't expect to bring all funds and do well. You still need to have melee units to hold objectives and jam the enemy.

Cygnar uses shooting more as a scalpel to take out key models and assasinate casters. They are accurate and often ignore alot of defense mechanics like stealth.

**LordBlades**

Deadnight wrote:

What Mercs go well with cygnar? Two staples seem to be Boomhowler and co., and Nyss hunters. You've also got aiyanna and holt, forge guard, various pirate Mercs, etc. In terms of solos you've got Gorman, eiryss, the piper and various others. Cygnar has huge choice when it comes to mercenaries.

I get Boomhowler (tough melee, many models so I assume it's good for blocking units from reaching the Cygnar ranged infantry, but why Nyss hunters? They seem a purely ranged unit to me.

AnomanderRake wrote:

I'd pay particular attention to Taryn and Ayanna/Holt since they have interesting interaction with in-faction stuff instead of just doing things you can't do easily in-faction.

I assume Ayanna is used for Magic weapon and Taryn for clearing LOS, right?

**Deadnight**

LordBlades wrote:

I get Boomhowler (tough melee, many models so I assume it's good for blocking units from reaching the Cygnar ranged infantry, but why Nyss hunters? They seem a purely ranged unit to me.

I assume Ayanna is used for Magic weapon and Taryn for clearing LOS, right?

Nyss are weapon masters in melee. Pow9 + 4d6 does quite a bit of damage on the charge. Add in speed, accuracy, and hunter and native Hugh defense to boot. They're an excellent and extremely versatile unit that brings a lot to the table. Put them with murdoc and they count as cygnar models and then they benefit from any number of spells and feats, as well as assault From the ranking officer.

Aiyanna for magic weapons, but also for kiss (+2 to damage rolls against kissed target)!and holt. Accurate long ranged pow12 (14s). Very versatile unit.

Now combine both aiyanna and holt, and Nyss hunters. Great combo.

**Blood Hawk**

LordBlades wrote:
Deadnight wrote:

What Mercs go well with cygnar? Two staples seem to be Boomhowler and co., and Nyss hunters. You've also got aiyanna and holt, forge guard, various pirate Mercs, etc. In terms of solos you've got Gorman, eiryss, the piper and various others. Cygnar has huge choice when it comes to mercenaries.

I get Boomhowler (tough melee, many models so I assume it's good for blocking units from reaching the Cygnar ranged infantry, but why Nyss hunters? They seem a purely ranged unit to me.

AnomanderRake wrote:

I'd pay particular attention to Taryn and Ayanna/Holt since they have interesting interaction with in-faction stuff instead of just doing things you can't do easily in-faction.

I assume Ayanna is used for Magic weapon and Taryn for clearing LOS, right?

Nyss are taken due to being a combined arms unit that is good at melee and ranged. They are better at ranged with cyngar buff spells like deadeye, and murdoch is really good with them. One their weaknesses is blast damage (due to low arm) and murdoch can make them immune to that for a turn on the approach.

Aiyanna in cygnar most of the time is being taken for kiss not the magic weapons honestly. Gunmages of any type can let cygnar deal with incorporeal models easily. The only time I use the magic weapon spell is when I am fighting menoth and they have passage up.

**LordBlades**

I have thought about it some more, and I have reached the conclusion that I can't reach a conclusion until I give both factions a try at the game table.

Fluff wise I like them both (Menoth for the more gothic, 40k-ish style, Cygnar for being the 'good guys'). Model-wise, I like them about the same and as far as theorycrafting goes, I like the synergy gameplay that Menoth encourages, but I also like the ranged approach of Cygnar, and the idea of using many mercenaries, with their variety of models and abilities. Especially Boomhowler (Trolls were on my first potential faction list so I'd be delighted to include some trollkin models after all).

I intend to proxy with 40k miniatures and run a few games vs. myself (or a friend) in the coming weeks, so I've tried to build a few 'starter armies' (based around each faction's battlebox) to see how they play.

Menoth:

Kreoss
Crusader
Revenger
Repenter
Choir (min. size)
Vassal
Total 15 points

Cygnar:

Coleman Stryker
Ironclad
Charger
Lancer
Boomhowler (5 grunts)
Total: 17 points

What do you think, are these good armies to play against each other to test stuff out?

**Tanakosyke22**

Deadnight wrote:
LordBlades wrote:
I know a bit about the lore but wiki descriptions are pretty bare-bines. Where could one find out more about the fluff of a certain faction?

.........
the fourth place is PPs publishing wing. skull island expeditions. https://skullislandx.com/
they dont yet have the volume or the library of titles of the black library, but whats there is very solid. i will particularly recommend the warcaster chronicle series (caine, butcher and shae so far), warlock chronicles (makeda and thagrosh), extraordinary zoology (brilliant little read!) and top of the pile is Into the Storm by larry correia (award winning author). the iron kingdoms excursions series is a series of short stories that are quite fun to read too.

Kind of off-topic, but what is everyone's take on 'In Thunder Forged'? I kind of got bored with it and dropped, did not find it interesting....

**AnomanderRake**

LordBlades wrote:
I have thought about it some more, and I have reached the conclusion that I can't reach a conclusion until I give both factions a try at the game table.

Fluff wise I like them both (Menoth for the more gothic, 40k-ish style, Cygnar for being the 'good guys'). Model-wise, I like them about the same and as far as theorycrafting goes, I like the synergy gameplay that Menoth encourages, but I also like the ranged approach of Cygnar, and the idea of using many mercenaries, with their variety of models and abilities. Especially Boomhowler (Trolls were on my first potential faction list so I'd be delighted to include some trollkin models after all).

I intend to proxy with 40k miniatures and run a few games vs. myself (or a friend) in the coming weeks, so I've tried to build a few 'starter armies' (based around each faction's battlebox) to see how they play.

Menoth:

Kreoss
Crusader
Revenger
Repenter
Choir (min. size)
Vassal
Total 15 points

Cygnar:

Coleman Stryker
Ironclad
Charger
Lancer
Boomhowler (5 grunts)
Total: 17 points

What do you think, are these good armies to play against each other to test stuff out?

Probably not, two points can make a lot of difference. I'd suggest practicing with the battlegroups starting out, if you want to add a unit to either side the Choir for Menoth and a Gun Mages unit for Cygnar (give Menoth a solo or two to even out the points) are going to give you a good picture of how both factions play.

**Blood Hawk**

LordBlades wrote:
I have thought about it some more, and I have reached the conclusion that I can't reach a conclusion until I give both factions a try at the game table.

Fluff wise I like them both (Menoth for the more gothic, 40k-ish style, Cygnar for being the 'good guys'). Model-wise, I like them about the same and as far as theorycrafting goes, I like the synergy gameplay that Menoth encourages, but I also like the ranged approach of Cygnar, and the idea of using many mercenaries, with their variety of models and abilities. Especially Boomhowler (Trolls were on my first potential faction list so I'd be delighted to include some trollkin models after all).

I intend to proxy with 40k miniatures and run a few games vs. myself (or a friend) in the coming weeks, so I've tried to build a few 'starter armies' (based around each faction's battlebox) to see how they play.

Menoth:

Kreoss
Crusader
Revenger
Repenter
Choir (min. size)
Vassal
Total 15 points

Cygnar:

Coleman Stryker
Ironclad
Charger
Lancer
Boomhowler (5 grunts)
Total: 17 points

What do you think, are these good armies to play against each other to test stuff out?

If you want to to do 15pts, so battlegroup plus a few models for the Cygnar I would try doing a squire and arlan strangewaves (or maybe some other 2 pt solo) instead of boomhowler and crew so that they are both at 15pts. Though honestly just doing battlebox vs. battlebox may be easier if you testing out the game for the first time.

Also striker1's feat doesn't work on the trolls sense they are not friendly faction for him.

Edit: After 15 you try 25pt games, just a add a full unit of something maybe with the UA (errants with UA for menoth) and maybe a full unit of trolls or something for cygnar.

**Grey Templar**

LordBlades wrote:
I have thought about it some more, and I have reached the conclusion that I can't reach a conclusion until I give both factions a try at the game table.

Fluff wise I like them both (Menoth for the more gothic, 40k-ish style, Cygnar for being the 'good guys'). Model-wise, I like them about the same and as far as theorycrafting goes, I like the synergy gameplay that Menoth encourages, but I also like the ranged approach of Cygnar, and the idea of using many mercenaries, with their variety of models and abilities. Especially Boomhowler (Trolls were on my first potential faction list so I'd be delighted to include some trollkin models after all).

In Warmahordes, there really aren't any good guys.

The closest you'd get to good guys are the Trollkin, because they've just got the shaft and are pushing back against encroaching humans and broken promises made by Cygnar. Of course releasing world eating Mountain Kings and deliberate use of the Axe which is supposed to destroy the world is a bit of an overreaction.

Cygnar has plenty of dirt on their hands. Religious persecution and genocide, territorial encroachment, broken treaties, irresponsible scientific experimentation, etc... And all that under the relatively nice King Leto. His predecessor, and older brother, Vinter was far less nice.

"Good guys" is about as far from the truth as you could get.

**PhantomViper**

Grey Templar wrote:

The closest you'd get to good guys are the Trollkin, because they've just got the shaft and are pushing back against encroaching humans and broken promises made by Cygnar. Of course releasing world eating Mountain Kings and deliberate use of the Axe which is supposed to destroy the world is a bit of an overreaction.

Yes, nothing says: "We're the good guys, honest!" like eating entire train loads full of defenceless wounded soldiers!

**LordBlades**

Grey Templar wrote:
LordBlades wrote:
I have thought about it some more, and I have reached the conclusion that I can't reach a conclusion until I give both factions a try at the game table.

Fluff wise I like them both (Menoth for the more gothic, 40k-ish style, Cygnar for being the 'good guys'). Model-wise, I like them about the same and as far as theorycrafting goes, I like the synergy gameplay that Menoth encourages, but I also like the ranged approach of Cygnar, and the idea of using many mercenaries, with their variety of models and abilities. Especially Boomhowler (Trolls were on my first potential faction list so I'd be delighted to include some trollkin models after all).

In Warmahordes, there really aren't any good guys.

The closest you'd get to good guys are the Trollkin, because they've just got the shaft and are pushing back against encroaching humans and broken promises made by Cygnar. Of course releasing world eating Mountain Kings and deliberate use of the Axe which is supposed to destroy the world is a bit of an overreaction.

Cygnar has plenty of dirt on their hands. Religious persecution and genocide, territorial encroachment, broken treaties, irresponsible scientific experimentation, etc... And all that under the relatively nice King Leto. His predecessor, and older brother, Vinter was far less nice.

"Good guys" is about as far from the truth as you could get.

I meant 'good guys' more in the 'these guys seem pretty good compared to everyone else' (much like I consider Tau the good guys of 40k despite the Greater Good being neither too great nor very good if you're not Tau). From the factions I've read a bit more in-depth about:

Cryx-no comment needed
Khador-while their people aren't living too badly, Khador as a nation is either conquering stuff or plotting their next conquest. Definitely the most warmongering nation.
Protectorate of Menoth-similar to middle-ages Europe. If you're a devout Menite not part of the ruling elite you can expect a life of hard labor under the watchful eye of the Scrutators with little reward (their food is rationalized IIRC) and it goes down from there.
Cygnar-while they have their own skeletons in the closet, they do seem a lot less warmongering than Khador (I haven't come across any offensive wars started by Cygnar), and people seem to live a lot better life than in the Protectorate.

Back to army composition: regarding the 'try the box first' suggestion, how well does the Cygnar box reflect how Cygnar really plays? 2/3 of the warjacks in the box are pure melee.

**MWHistorian**

Wait! Hold on. Convergence of Cyris are the true good guys. They just want to turn the world into a machine utopia when they bring the goddess to the world.
Of course, a few towns may have to be wiped out and the world may be destroyed in the process, but it'll be great! Trust me. As long as you're a machine, you should be fine.

Right?

**PhantomViper**

LordBlades wrote:

Back to army composition: regarding the 'try the box first' suggestion, how well does the Cygnar box reflect how Cygnar really plays? 2/3 of the warjacks in the box are pure melee.

And that is how your army will probably be as well.

Despite Cygnar being totted as a shooting faction, the majority of your armies will be composed of both melee and shooting units. In the vast majority of our casters, shooting will be a very useful tool to pick up support units and to soften up the enemy, but the games will almost always be decided in melee since that is the only way to take and contest objectives.

**AnomanderRake**

LordBlades wrote:
Back to army composition: regarding the 'try the box first' suggestion, how well does the Cygnar box reflect how Cygnar really plays? 2/3 of the warjacks in the box are pure melee.

True, but unlike most armies' battle boxes Cygnar's is loaded down with control tricks (Quake Hammer, Earthquake, Disruption, Cortex Damage) and one of the melee warjacks is the faction's primary Arc Node. You've got a relatively fragile but hard-hitting force made more durable by the warcaster's spell list that can cripple a warjack at 16" range; it doesn't give you an idea of the sheer variety of ranged shenanigans open to Cygnar but it's a decent picture of the army regardless.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Always remember: Ranged combat is not for killing things. It's almost never powerful enough. Ranged combat is for making sure things can't kill you easily and then you finish them off in melee.

**BoardroomHero**

As an aside, I'm going to strongly suggest you read this: http://museonminis.com/starting-armies-warmachine-faction-play/ at some point, as it's an in-depth and considered look at each faction. I was really impressed, and while it doesn't cover /everything/, it comes closer than any other overview I've read.

**Egregious**

AnomanderRake wrote:
That's what we're here for. The next step is to ask Dakka "Can you give me a brief overview of how each army plays?" and wait for some combination of people that have all the books to write you a long list.

Head start on that:

Cygnar: Glass cannon ranged game. Heavily reliant on not getting hit instead of surviving the hits, spoiled for choice on ways to run warjacks without your warcaster. Warcasters tend towards support roles. Most options: 'Jack-heavy, ranged combat. Least options: melee.

Khador: Straightforward, brute-force oriented. Tend to run Focus-hungry warjacks and Focus-hungry warcasters, prefer a small warjack presence. Best at stacking buffs on light infantry. Most options: light infantry. Least options: heavy infantry, warjacks.

Menoth: Great board control, great unit synergy. They tend to have Focus-efficient warjacks, powerful general-purpose infantry, and ways to limit their opponents' options. Most options: infantry, warjacks. Least options: ranged combat.

Cryx: Best warcasters around, their stuff tends to be underwhelming alone but terrifying when the warcaster's spells are involved. Prefer to play by their own rules instead of anyone else's, resurrection, incorporeal/Ghostly models, and the like are common. Easiest access to Arc Nodes. Most options: infantry, combo play. Least options: ranged, warjacks.

Retribution: Tend towards a jack-of-all-trades approach where a unit's role will change completely depending on what support pieces you brought. Unit interaction is high, and they have lots of ways to control where enemy models are. They don't have more options on any particular approach, they're a small and versatile faction.

Circle: The faction of movement shenanigans. Strong warbeasts, hard-hitting infantry, but very little that can absorb punishment. Good at terrain, both getting benefits in terrain and making more. Most options: melee, warbeasts. Least options: ranged, attrition.

Skorne: The brute force faction. Units tend to be strong, tough, and slow, the game for them is about working out how to deliver their heavy-hitters. Defensive buffs, screening units, and movement buffs lead to their playstyle being frequently described as "build a brick, and throw it at the other guy". Most options: melee, infantry. Least options: warbeasts, ranged.

Trollbloods: Emphasis on model synergy. Everything is a pain to remove from the table, easy access to cheap medium bases makes your ability to screen things incomparable. The tradeoff comes in speed and your ability to toss shenanigans out, Trolls play a straightforward game and can't toss out a lot of surprises. Most options: melee, attrition play. Least options: ranged, control play.

Legion: All the warbeasts, all the time. Warbeasts are fast, hard-hitting, and the faction comes loaded down with toys to make them faster and hit harder plus the best Fury management around. Great at getting the heavy hitters where they need to be, ass at taking punishment; Legion has to play aggressively and get in the alpha strike. Most options: assassinations, warbeasts. Least options: infantry, attrition.

No comments on Cyriss, Mercs, or Minions because I don't know as much about them and they're bad places to start the game anyway.

Exalt! I know I'm a few days late, but this saves me from opening a new post. I was looking for just such a summary.

**Grey Templar**

I do have to point out that Skorne are NOT slow. We have a metric ton of speed buffs and can hit you from downtown. Infantry and beasts alike.

**BoardroomHero**

Yeah, to say that Menoth has weak ranged options, when they typically take a ton of excellent ranged stuff, feels a bit odd to me.

Retribution also has a pretty strong ranged emphasis.

I'm again going to strongly suggest that interested parties look at the link I posted above.

**AnomanderRake**

Grey Templar wrote:
I do have to point out that Skorne are NOT slow. We have a metric ton of speed buffs and can hit you from downtown. Infantry and beasts alike.

SPD stats tend towards the low end. We can be fast, but we have to work at it.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

BoardroomHero wrote:
Yeah, to say that Menoth has weak ranged options, when they typically take a ton of excellent ranged stuff, feels a bit odd to me.

Retribution also has a pretty strong ranged emphasis.

I'm again going to strongly suggest that interested parties look at the link I posted above.

Menoth doesn't have weak ranged options, they don't have a lot of them. I made that remark based on the fact that they don't have a lot of ranged buffs, they don't have ranged utility toys, and the heavy hitters are usually primarily melee. This judgement may be coloured by the fact that every Menoth army I've ever played against was built to win on the strength of their melee damage output and their control tricks were built around that, so my remarks should be taken with a grain of salt.

As to Retribution they have just as many toys for playing a brutal alpha-strike melee game as hanging back and tossing fire, I didn't want to try and call it one way or the other.

**Mahtamori**

BoardroomHero wrote:
Yeah, to say that Menoth has weak ranged options, when they typically take a ton of excellent ranged stuff, feels a bit odd to me.

Retribution also has a pretty strong ranged emphasis.

I'm again going to strongly suggest that interested parties look at the link I posted above.

Yup, the Retribution description a few posts up feels off for me. Can only think of one single FA1 UA (MHSF UA, although granted, I'm not trying very hard) that radically changes a unit, otherwise it's a few FA2 solos (Thanes, Arcanists) that enhance what a unit already does. Retribution is mostly about the 2-point solos and the fact that they'll soften up your army significantly before applying polearm to face. Oddly enough I don't feel like Retribution has much of a gameplay identity besides criminally poor at handling Stealth.

**Grey Templar**

AnomanderRake wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:
I do have to point out that Skorne are NOT slow. We have a metric ton of speed buffs and can hit you from downtown. Infantry and beasts alike.

SPD stats tend towards the low end. We can be fast, but we have to work at it.

Well, Titans have slow base speed. And honestly you always factor in Rush because you will have Rush.

Infantry are average to high speed.

**Powerguy**

Mahtamori wrote:
BoardroomHero wrote:
Yeah, to say that Menoth has weak ranged options, when they typically take a ton of excellent ranged stuff, feels a bit odd to me.

Retribution also has a pretty strong ranged emphasis.

I'm again going to strongly suggest that interested parties look at the link I posted above.

Yup, the Retribution description a few posts up feels off for me. Can only think of one single FA1 UA (MHSF UA, although granted, I'm not trying very hard) that radically changes a unit, otherwise it's a few FA2 solos (Thanes, Arcanists) that enhance what a unit already does. Retribution is mostly about the 2-point solos and the fact that they'll soften up your army significantly before applying polearm to face. Oddly enough I don't feel like Retribution has much of a gameplay identity besides criminally poor at handling Stealth.

Lol every UA Ret has is FA1, Halberdiers, Sentinels, MHSF, Riflemen UAs are all FA1 (and Infiltrators only have 3Eiryss..). Obviously there are tier bonuses which let you get around this (I wish there was a way to get 2 Halberdier UAs though), but that's the same for every faction. I disagree that they are bad at handling Stealth since the last book came out. The Thane + Riflemen are comfortably going to down Stealthed solos with big CRAs and 2 man combines will chew through stuff like Bane Thralls before they can connect. Issyria also gives you one turn where Strike Force or Invictors can do it as well. On top of that they still have all the options they had to deal with Stealth in the past, Discordia and Hyperion can chew up Stealthed infantry, Stormfalls can lob shots into things from 16" away and hitting things with a sword tends to get around Stealth as well.

I think the single biggest thing Ret has going for them is threat ranges - they don't have major control casters but their ability to threaten the board is still very good just from their base abilities. They don't have all the buffs some other factions have but all their units are generally pretty good without support. Strike Force killing your caster from 22" away and Halberdiers charging 13" (+ Reach) and killing two heavies usually happen once, but then it massively changes the way your opponent plays.

**Grey Templar**

Nearly all UAs in the entire game are FA1. A couple are FA2(and which ones is rather bizarre)

**BoardroomHero**

AnomanderRake wrote:

Menoth doesn't have weak ranged options, they don't have a lot of them. I made that remark based on the fact that they don't have a lot of ranged buffs, they don't have ranged utility toys, and the heavy hitters are usually primarily melee. This judgement may be coloured by the fact that every Menoth army I've ever played against was built to win on the strength of their melee damage output and their control tricks were built around that, so my remarks should be taken with a grain of salt.

As to Retribution they have just as many toys for playing a brutal alpha-strike melee game as hanging back and tossing fire, I didn't want to try and call it one way or the other.

I would argue that the choir is one of the strongest ranged buffs in the game, as it is one of the /very/ few buffs that will actually increase ranged damage. The Errants are also extremely common, and have useful, if not excellent, ranged capacity. While I'd not argue the faction is range-centered, they almost always have a strong ranged-pressure element to their game.

**AnomanderRake**

BoardroomHero wrote:
AnomanderRake wrote:

Menoth doesn't have weak ranged options, they don't have a lot of them. I made that remark based on the fact that they don't have a lot of ranged buffs, they don't have ranged utility toys, and the heavy hitters are usually primarily melee. This judgement may be coloured by the fact that every Menoth army I've ever played against was built to win on the strength of their melee damage output and their control tricks were built around that, so my remarks should be taken with a grain of salt.

As to Retribution they have just as many toys for playing a brutal alpha-strike melee game as hanging back and tossing fire, I didn't want to try and call it one way or the other.

I would argue that the choir is one of the strongest ranged buffs in the game, as it is one of the /very/ few buffs that will actually increase ranged damage. The Errants are also extremely common, and have useful, if not excellent, ranged capacity. While I'd not argue the faction is range-centered, they almost always have a strong ranged-pressure element to their game.

They don't have ranged utility, range-increasing buffs, ranged-oriented feats on warcasters, any way around Stealth, or ways to reliably scratch warjacks with guns to anywhere near the level Trolls, Cygnar, Mercs, Retribution, Legion, or even Khador do. "Not a ranged-oriented faction" doesn't mean you don't have good ranged units, even Circle has solid ranged capability, but the breadth of your selection is below-average and the ranged units can't handle a lot of targets. Exemplar Errants may have crossbows, but their primary role is in obstructing space and thwacking people because they're cheap small-based Weapon Masters.

**Grey Templar**

Menoth Jacks are quite capable of damaging jacks with their guns. Choir and Vassals make this possible.

Heck, pKreoss can make his entire game ranged assassination without sacrificing attrition.

With a Reckoner, Vanquisher, and a Redeemer(and 2 vassals and choir) I have 2 pow15s, 2 pow16s, and 3 pow14s. And 5 focus to allocate around. Feat and drop those suckers just about anywhere you want.