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Verviedi wrote:
People are trying to persuade me to stop going to a GW store, and bashing GW stores.

People are entirely justified in "bashing" GW stores. Even if you personally don't make use of any of the advantages offered by a non-GW store that doesn't change the fact that the non-GW store is clearly superior in general.


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Verviedi wrote:
Saying you have options is null and void if you will not use the options anyway.

IOW, "I'm content with settling for a lower-quality store".

Why would I bring terrain? They supply the full range of Citadel terrain for use in-store for anyone. My Pegasus stuff is for home play.

Why would you bring terrain? Because the Citadel™ Terrain™ is mediocre at best, and it's nice to have more terrain options?

Akragth wrote:
I prefer my FLGS because I play more than GW games and the GW store offers me nothing I can't find at the FLGS, with refreshments on offer, better staff, 3x the tables and a lot more space. It doesn't mean I dislike the GW store, merely that the GW is inferior in terms of giving me the environment I want.

Verviedi wrote:
Saying you have options is null and void if you will not use the options anyway.

True. However, you're not everyone, and not everyone plays GW games exclusively. Wasn't this topic about why other folks, beside yourself, differentiate? After reading your posts I'm not really sure what the actual point of this topic is anymore. Every time people give a valid reason for having a preference of a FLGS over a GW store you seem to try and dismiss or contradict their opinion.

Refreshments are a big thing ^^. I like FLGS stores with chocolate bars, pop, and slurpee machines. Even if the markup is silly

I don't think GW stores are competitive in getting players to go out and play at them, but really, who cares? It's good for the hobby (more presence) and if people prefer GW or independent stores to play at, all the power to 'em.

If my local GW store was not run by a ***hole, I would probably bring models there and play occasionally.

Oh yes, I always wondered, and did not understand -- why do people build their models and paint them at stores? >.< Excluding employees, the whole concept seems so strange to me, lol.

Oh, and let's not forget about things like what hours the store is open. The non-GW store probably opens earlier, closes later, and doesn't have to shut down for an hour in the middle of the day so that the single employee can have a lunch break.


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Talys wrote:
Oh yes, I always wondered, and did not understand -- why do people build their models and paint them at stores? >.< Excluding employees, the whole concept seems so strange to me, lol.

Lack of painting space at home? Hoping to get painting help from other people? It's something that has absolutely zero appeal to me (and I probably wouldn't be welcome in a GW store with all my non-GW paints and hobby supplies), but I guess I could see how some people might want to do it as long as they're content with using only GW products.

Is there a way to report an entire thread for locking?

Talys wrote:

Oh yes, I always wondered, and did not understand -- why do people build their models and paint them at stores? >.< Excluding employees, the whole concept seems so strange to me, lol.

They may not have a suitable place at home to do that. Some people live in small homes, or live with alot of people, etc. Also, maybe they enjoy socializing with people while they do it. Just a couple thoughts. I do my hobby stuff at home.

RULE #1 everyone.

Also, stop with the color text posting as well.

Thanks!

Talys wrote:
Oh yes, I always wondered, and did not understand -- why do people build their models and paint them at stores? >.< Excluding employees, the whole concept seems so strange to me, lol.

I cant speak for all the people that do but i find painting gets really boring when doing dozens or hundreds of the same model(or very similar ones, termagants and hormagaunts), If I assemble and paint at the store I have people to chat and BS with while I assemble models and the chance for a pickup game to break up the repetition. Sometimes at the LGS there will be four or five people working on models and just having a random discussion.

Verviedi wrote:
People are trying to persuade me to stop going to a GW store, and bashing GW stores.

Yea, but you're countering points even when the point made is correct and is not bashing anything. For example, the point that in a FLGS you can play both GW and non-GW games, whilst at a GW store it's GW only. Your counterargument was that you only play GW stuff so it doesn't matter to you. That entirely misses the point. We're not trying to make you play at a FLGS, we're saying why we do.

You're content with playing at the GW store, and good for you. Many of us were playing a GW stores before you were born, literally, and we're jaded from the downgrading they've gone through. They're a pale comparison of what they once were.

So to rehash:

FLGS has all the features everyone wants.
GW has some of the features everyone wants, and all of the features some people want.

Therefore, for some people, GW is inherently just as good (but no better) than an FLGS, and for others, FLGS is inherently better.

Therefore:
FLGS >= GW.

Consider the break even for the community in choosing GW vs FLGS. The percentage of people for whom GW is fine must be exactly 100%. Which won't happen, especially when factoring in potential players.

So, based on those structures alone.

However, beyond the FLGS vs GW dynamic, stores have other properties that can matter (demographics, dickish management, location, etc). These properties aren't about GW vs not, so that's not really the debate.

It can be reasonable for someone to prefer a specific GW store to a specific FLGS. Depends on a lot of 'soft' factors. But there is no point where the GW store is inherently better than an FLGS. So, (1), it can be useful to differentiate, and (2), don't consider preference for an FLGS as an indicator of faulty thought.

I hate GW stores because the ones I've been in, the staff leap all over you straight away and try to coerce you into buying stuff. I don't like that at all, and it actually makes me more likely not to buy anything.

And Verviedi, having read through the thread, no one was trying to persuade you to stop going to GW stores, they were stating reasons why they don't go to them, which is what you asked? And they were bashing GW stores because there are flaws in GW stores that FLGS don't have.

I don't see anyone saying "Don't go to a GW store, they are awful" at least not with a straight face. But you, OP, asked why people differentiate between the two and you got answers.

The fact that you only play 40k and therefore don't mind going to the GW store because you can play 40k there with other 40k players doesn't mean that a FLGS that plays a variety of games including 40k is better or worse. It's an option, and yes it's maybe not the right option if you only want to play 40k and don't know/care about any other games out there, but it's not automatically worse because tables might be taken up by people playing games that aren't 40k.

 TheAvengingKnee wrote:
I cant speak for all the people that do but i find painting gets really boring when doing dozens or hundreds of the same model(or very similar ones, termagants and hormagaunts), If I assemble and paint at the store I have people to chat and BS with while I assemble models and the chance for a pickup game to break up the repetition. Sometimes at the LGS there will be four or five people working on models and just having a random discussion.

I have no idea how people can do that without screwing up their models. Am I the only person who needs to focus on what I'm doing to paint at an acceptable level?

By the way, one thing on the plus side for GW stores is that they typically stock more GW stuff than most independent stores. So if you want one more squad of Fire Dragons, Draigo, or Vulkan don't want to wait a few days for it, there is instant gratification. Or, if you want multiples of a pricey unit (like two boxes of centurions or three drop pods) at the same time, many independent stores just wont' stock that unless it's one of the most popular models (like WK or Riptide).

Of course, you'd typically pay 10%-30% more...




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 Peregrine wrote:

 TheAvengingKnee wrote:
I cant speak for all the people that do but i find painting gets really boring when doing dozens or hundreds of the same model(or very similar ones, termagants and hormagaunts), If I assemble and paint at the store I have people to chat and BS with while I assemble models and the chance for a pickup game to break up the repetition. Sometimes at the LGS there will be four or five people working on models and just having a random discussion.

I have no idea how people can do that without screwing up their models. Am I the only person who needs to focus on what I'm doing to paint at an acceptable level?

Same here.

I don't need to focus, particularly (I usually catch up on TV shows the wife doesn't like while I paint, and I'm often on the phone), but I spend too much time just cleaning brushes when there are too many distractions, like a conversation that I need to be engaged in. Also I have a crap ton of tools. I can't even begin imagine taking them to a FLGS!

 Peregrine wrote:

 TheAvengingKnee wrote:
I cant speak for all the people that do but i find painting gets really boring when doing dozens or hundreds of the same model(or very similar ones, termagants and hormagaunts), If I assemble and paint at the store I have people to chat and BS with while I assemble models and the chance for a pickup game to break up the repetition. Sometimes at the LGS there will be four or five people working on models and just having a random discussion.

I have no idea how people can do that without screwing up their models. Am I the only person who needs to focus on what I'm doing to paint at an acceptable level?

Well...I have to concentrate to achieve mediocrity . And some people find a basecoat with a wash to be acceptable. Or play with unpainted models....to each his own.

Talys wrote:
By the way, one thing on the plus side for GW stores is that they typically stock more GW stuff than most independent stores.

Really? Last time I was in a GW store (possibly the same one the OP plays at) it was just sad how little inventory they had. It reminded me of the last days of a local non-gaming hobby shop, where they ran out of money to buy new inventory and had to spread out the existing stuff to take up as much shelf space as possible and disguise the fact that there wasn't much left. Unless I'd called in advance to confirm that the item is in stock I wouldn't go to a GW store for any "rarer" models and expect to get more than the usual "look at our wonderful In-store Order Point™" offer that's only appealing if you're too young to buy online.

The GW store I visited had far less GW inventory than my flgs...I mean a great deal less.

 Peregrine wrote:

Talys wrote:
By the way, one thing on the plus side for GW stores is that they typically stock more GW stuff than most independent stores.

Really? Last time I was in a GW store (possibly the same one the OP plays at) it was just sad how little inventory they had. It reminded me of the last days of a local non-gaming hobby shop, where they ran out of money to buy new inventory and had to spread out the existing stuff to take up as much shelf space as possible and disguise the fact that there wasn't much left. Unless I'd called in advance to confirm that the item is in stock I wouldn't go to a GW store for any "rarer" models and expect to get more than the usual "look at our wonderful In-store Order Point™" offer that's only appealing if you're too young to buy online.

Wow. How pointless then

As far as I'm concerned, the primary purpose of a GW store is to show off GW stuff, and to make people aware of the product. Like, presence + advertising. It's kind of fun (for me) looking at models that I probably wouldn't buy, and that my FLGS doesn't stock. A lot of the IC's, and oddball units that are not very popular (like ratlings or ammo runts) If there's no stuff there, they should pack up and close up!

Talys wrote:
Like, presence + advertising.

Well, that was lost when they decided to start putting GW stores in the back corner of whatever random middle of nowhere strip mall has the cheapest rent in the city. The only people who are likely to go to the GW store I'm thinking of are people who already know about GW and are looking for a place to buy/play, I suspect you can safely round the number of new customers per year to zero.

I don't like the GW store for a few reasons.

1. Its farther than my LGS.
2. I can't use some of my special models because they are 3rd party minis.
3. I can't play Warmachine, X-wing or Flames of War there.
4. The GW store only has 2 tables compared to the 8 my LGS has.
5. My LGS closes at 9pm everyday regardless of whats going on, our GW store will close at 7 while you are in a middle of a game because they are not selling anything.

There are some other reasons too. I don't hate GW's stores, I just hate their business practices and like my FLGS more.

Talys wrote:
Oh yes, I always wondered, and did not understand -- why do people build their models and paint them at stores? Excluding employees, the whole concept seems so strange to me, lol.

I've build every model since returning to the hobby at my local GW.

People talk when building/painting/waiting, it's a good way to wait for a pickup game, and you can get advice from other players or the staff (luckily, my local GW has multiple great staff [GT winner, etc.], a good location, good size, etc) about building and playing.

Plus, it is rather nice to get out to hobby, not stay at home video gaming.

 Ruberu wrote:

5. My LGS closes at 9pm everyday regardless of whats going on, our GW store will close at 7 while you are in a middle of a game because they are not selling anything.

That is a point I had not thought of, the FLGS will let people finish there game and is open till 11pm or whenever people actually leave after that.

 TheAvengingKnee wrote:

 Ruberu wrote:

5. My LGS closes at 9pm everyday regardless of whats going on, our GW store will close at 7 while you are in a middle of a game because they are not selling anything.

That is a point I had not thought of, the FLGS will let people finish there game and is open till 11pm or whenever people actually leave after that.

Yep. My FLGS is located in a mall and has a special clause in their contract that lets them keep the back door open during business hours, so we can stay there until midnight or beyond after the mall closes.

Here in my local area we don't have many flgs or gw stores. You have three options and they all sort of suck so there are no easy answers for this one.

The gw: this one has lots of tables, a painting station o.o, and lots of community events like tournaments, specialist games days (apoc, cod, kt, sh, blood bowl (yes I said blood bowl), and a super helpful store owner. On the negative side of things the requirements for being able to play at those tablespoons insane (basically you need to meet minimum tournament standards for most places (3 primary colors minimum on anything + basing, primed models may be used a maximum of one time ever). And the store front while full of stock is lacking many things I wish there was room for (many of the codecies are order ins, limited selection on select xenos armies like eldars and tau). Are store owner (while he is super helpful, skilled, and passionate about mwging. In general) is also a serious witch Hunter of 3rd party, never tell him your using banners you had scratch made off eBay or 3rd party recast sculpts he will basically threaten to ban you if he finds out you field recasts.

Then you have the only flgs in the city: They have private gaming table rooms which is awesome and lots of stock of non gw products, the problem is that there isn't any community support by the store in fact their fairly hostile charging miniwargamers in general a fee to play a bloody table (15 bucks a visit).

Finally we have a pair of comic book stores minute city that have tables and happen to also stock a very tiny amount of mini wargames (mostly x wing and fow). They have lousy tables/terrain, their usually dead quiet places with limited table space and one of the two will only permit us wargamers on certain days of the week to even bloody play (and even then we need to fight for table space with the card gamers and pen and paper rpg guys).

So really it becomes pick your poison. And I feel that its really on a location by location basis. In veritable Mecca's for wargamers like seattle or Toronto where there literally dozens of places you can play and shop gw is probably not the best idea, and in smaller locations in the west anyway the flgs might in fact be just as terrible places to shop and play as games workshop is (if not worse). What I can say for certain is this; if gw had its ear to the ground and actually listened to us poking the roof with our broomsticks and did market research and took feedback and sat down and listened to our community they would be easily kicking the backside of any old mom n pop shop in terms of overall quality of product and customer satiafaction I'm their brick n mortar stores. And same goes for the like really small time wargames they would just get rekt


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WayneTheGame wrote:

 TheAvengingKnee wrote:

 Ruberu wrote:

5. My LGS closes at 9pm everyday regardless of whats going on, our GW store will close at 7 while you are in a middle of a game because they are not selling anything.

That is a point I had not thought of, the FLGS will let people finish there game and is open till 11pm or whenever people actually leave after that.

Yep. My FLGS is located in a mall and has a special clause in their contract that lets them keep the back door open during business hours, so we can stay there until midnight or beyond after the mall closes.

my gw actually does do that, they keep the doors open an extra hour for those still at the tables, but painters and the shoppers need to leave once 7 rolled around.

The difference for me:

Local GW. Open only 2-4 days a week if there is no crisis that intervenes. Like illness. Has 1 4x4 table and painting area. Doesn't carry a third of the stock it used to, but you can "freely" order stuff online for delivery to the store for pickup. If I wanted to order stuff online, would I have bothered to go into the store in the first place?

FLGS. Open 6 days a week. Good range of stuff for multiple games and terrain, and has 6-8 tables to game on. Will order stuff if they don't have it in stock (if it's GW, that's likely because they didn't actually allocate ANY stock to flgs in the current release). Gives a discount for sales over a certain amount.

Verviedi wrote:
]People are trying to persuade me to stop going to a GW store, and bashing GW stores.

1. Re-read your first post and a few thereafter, you're doing exactly the same thing. Don't make a thread trying to convert people and not expect some counter-points...
2. Like it or not, age is a factor. While not true for everyone but as a general rule, the lower the age the lower the maturity level. Also not everyone is in the fortunate age bracket of 20-25 being able to play with both kids/teens or adults without feeling like a creep.
3. For everyone's sake please stop replying within the quote brackets and using coloured text, it's not helping anything.

 chromedog wrote:
The difference for me:

Local GW. Open only 2-4 days a week if there is no crisis that intervenes. Like illness. Has 1 4x4 table and painting area. Doesn't carry a third of the stock it used to, but you can "freely" order stuff online for delivery to the store for pickup. If I wanted to order stuff online, would I have bothered to go into the store in the first place?

FLGS. Open 6 days a week. Good range of stuff for multiple games and terrain, and has 6-8 tables to game on. Will order stuff if they don't have it in stock (if it's GW, that's likely because they didn't actually allocate ANY stock to flgs in the current release). Gives a discount for sales over a certain amount.

It obviously just varies from location to location. My GW is open 6 days, but not in the morning on some days. It has 3 tables, one of which is 4x4 (which is only set up for intro games) the others are massive and can either split them to play multiple games or play one huge game. They carry most the range I believe, if I do have to order something it's often more convenient to pick it up as I pass it on my way home from work and I'm not home all day to receive packages anyway. They are also 15 minutes drive away in a better location with lots of parking.

The FLGS has lots of tables... none of which are permanently set up for wargames, but you can organise a game if you want. So that's less convenient. They only carry a skeleton stock of several games, so regardless of what you collect you're more than likely going to have to order it in, but then they can get anything so that's nice. They also carry P3 paints, Reaper paints, Army Painter (sprays only) in addition to GW paint. They carry more tools as well but I go to the generic hobby store for those anyway. They give good discounts but are 30 minutes drive away with very little parking, much of which is paid parking, so I'm wasting fuel to get there and if I intend to be there on a busy night or for a long time I end up having to pay for parking as well.

I don't really see the need for any great hatred of GW stores. Hating GW management? Sure. Individual stores? Nah, doesn't make much sense to me. But that said I think the hatred portrayed by the OP is vastly over stated.

 chromedog wrote:
The difference for me:

Local GW. Open only 2-4 days a week if there is no crisis that intervenes. Like illness. Has 1 4x4 table and painting area. Doesn't carry a third of the stock it used to, but you can "freely" order stuff online for delivery to the store for pickup. If I wanted to order stuff online, would I have bothered to go into the store in the first place?

FLGS. Open 6 days a week. Good range of stuff for multiple games and terrain, and has 6-8 tables to game on. Will order stuff if they don't have it in stock (if it's GW, that's likely because they didn't actually allocate ANY stock to flgs in the current release). Gives a discount for sales over a certain amount.

Wow, I don't know how to say this kindly, but your town blows for gaming stores :(

Our local GW is open 7 days a week (I think) with reasonable hours, and has several 4x6 gaming tables, and a few painting stations. They have, probably half of the GW current products on the shelf, including multiples of all of the popular stuff. Of my two favorite gaming stores, both open around 10am - 11 am most days, and close anywhere from 8pm - 11pm depending on the store and the day. They'll both stay open (much) later for gamers, though they have a last call for food and drinks (because the til is closed, and they take out the cash).

One has maybe 6 or 8 tables (4x6, or 4x4's that you can double up), and the other one has too many 4x6's to count. Both have lots of terrain you can use, though none as pretty as the stuff at the GW store.

I think the GW web order desk at the store thing is funny. If you're going to do that, you might as well just go to an indie store and have them order it in (at a discount), or order it online from GW.

Talys wrote:

 chromedog wrote:
The difference for me:

Local GW. Open only 2-4 days a week if there is no crisis that intervenes. Like illness. Has 1 4x4 table and painting area. Doesn't carry a third of the stock it used to, but you can "freely" order stuff online for delivery to the store for pickup. If I wanted to order stuff online, would I have bothered to go into the store in the first place?

FLGS. Open 6 days a week. Good range of stuff for multiple games and terrain, and has 6-8 tables to game on. Will order stuff if they don't have it in stock (if it's GW, that's likely because they didn't actually allocate ANY stock to flgs in the current release). Gives a discount for sales over a certain amount.

Wow, I don't know how to say this kindly, but your town blows for gaming stores :(

Our local GW is open 7 days a week (I think) with reasonable hours, and has several 4x6 gaming tables, and a few painting stations. They have, probably half of the GW current products on the shelf, including multiples of all of the popular stuff. Of my two favorite gaming stores, both open around 10am - 11 am most days, and close anywhere from 8pm - 11pm depending on the store and the day. They'll both stay open (much) later for gamers, though they have a last call for food and drinks (because the til is closed, and they take out the cash).

One has maybe 6 or 8 tables (4x6, or 4x4's that you can double up), and the other one has too many 4x6's to count. Both have lots of terrain you can use, though none as pretty as the stuff at the GW store.

I think the GW web order desk at the store thing is funny. If you're going to do that, you might as well just go to an indie store and have them order it in (at a discount), or order it online from GW.

I guess it's so you can make the immediate transaction if you want to buy locally but they were out of stock\ not carrying it. I used their desk the first time because well I honestly had no idea how to make online purchases at the time (I had never done it before) and I honestly thought they stocked a particular model but actually didn't.

I'd also like to point out that another reason they have it is so you can pay for said online purchase with debit/cash as opposed to credit card which is a lot more convenient than setting up a PayPal and then having to wait a week for your deposits to clear before you can spend any kind of money oonline.

Talys wrote:
Our local GW is open 7 days a week (I think) with reasonable hours, and has several 4x6 gaming tables, and a few painting stations.

This is the exception to the rule. You probably have one of the last old-style GW stores with a lease that hasn't expired. Once the current lease ends expect it to be replaced with a much smaller one-man store. Since there's only a single employee the store will only be open 5 days a week for limited hours, and will be closed for an hour in the middle of the day so that the employee can have a lunch break. And since the store will be much smaller the tables will be replaced by 2-3 ROB boards, with one permanently reserved for starter set demo games (it will be idle 99.99999% of the time and you'll wish you could have that space, but it's GW policy).

 ionusx wrote:
I'd also like to point out that another reason they have it is so you can pay for said online purchase with debit/cash as opposed to credit card which is a lot more convenient than setting up a PayPal and then having to wait a week for your deposits to clear before you can spend any kind of money oonline.

You can pay online with a debit card. The only reason you'd have trouble buying online and need the in-store option is if you're too young to have a bank account. For everyone else it's completely useless.

 Peregrine wrote:

Talys wrote:
Our local GW is open 7 days a week (I think) with reasonable hours, and has several 4x6 gaming tables, and a few painting stations.

This is the exception to the rule. You probably have one of the last old-style GW stores with a lease that hasn't expired. Once the current lease ends expect it to be replaced with a much smaller one-man store. Since there's only a single employee the store will only be open 5 days a week for limited hours, and will be closed for an hour in the middle of the day so that the employee can have a lunch break. And since the store will be much smaller the tables will be replaced by 2-3 ROB boards, with one permanently reserved for starter set demo games (it will be idle 99.99999% of the time and you'll wish you could have that space, but it's GW policy).

It just depends on location. Yes, my local GW moved to a cheaper rent area... but it actually moved to a store with a larger floor area. So they actually have more tables now than they did before. I believe the manager gets to pick his hours as well, my local GW is open 6 days a week but closed most mornings and closed mondays.