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 gumbymoto wrote:
The Necrons are technological gods, the Eldar and Dark Eldar have been around for a quite a few millennia longer than than tau, the tyranids aren't picky due to not having enough of a brain to care (except the hive mind i guess), and the orks dont care where they are as long as there's a fight to be had

as for the pleasure worlds they are few and far between compared to the other worlds in the imperium (plus they are inhabited by a very few number of people compared to the hive worlds)


so in my opinion the tau have it pretty good when you think about them being one of the youngest races in the milky way

But they don't, as posited, have "the highest living standard in the galaxy", because they don't, compared to the average. Yes, compare them to the lowest-rungs of Imperial society and, yes, they have a better standard of life... but the Imperium is not all gakhole Hive Worlds and Forge World foundries.

All of the other races you discounted there outnumber the Tau by several orders of magnitudes... so the position that the Tau have the highest, or even one of the highest, living standards is ludicrous.

 Psienesis wrote:

 gumbymoto wrote:
The Necrons are technological gods, the Eldar and Dark Eldar have been around for a quite a few millennia longer than than tau, the tyranids aren't picky due to not having enough of a brain to care (except the hive mind i guess), and the orks dont care where they are as long as there's a fight to be had

as for the pleasure worlds they are few and far between compared to the other worlds in the imperium (plus they are inhabited by a very few number of people compared to the hive worlds)


so in my opinion the tau have it pretty good when you think about them being one of the youngest races in the milky way

But they don't, as posited, have "the highest living standard in the galaxy", because they don't, compared to the average. Yes, compare them to the lowest-rungs of Imperial society and, yes, they have a better standard of life... but the Imperium is not all gakhole Hive Worlds and Forge World foundries.

The stupendous population of Hiveworlds ensures that most imperial humans do indeed live under abyssmal conditions. That's the entire point of the setting. The main protagonist is not the bunch of plucky rebells which fights for the freedom of all but the dark and evil Empire which turns babies into little robots for the elite, treats it's people like chattel and has become even worse since the death of the bloodthirsty tyrant which founded it. Mind, the Tau aren't what we would call the good guys. But when i have the choice between halfway reasonable, blue Dominon lookalikes and Nazistan 40000 (now with extra religious madness!) then im probably not going to pick the guys which treat their machines like religious icons and declare ignorance a virtue.

The "stupendous population" of Hive Worlds is still only 3% of all of the Imperium's planets.

 Psienesis wrote:
The "stupendous population" of Hive Worlds is still only 3% of all of the Imperium's planets.

You have a source to go with that or are you making stuff up again?

 Psienesis wrote:
The "stupendous population" of Hive Worlds is still only 3% of all of the Imperium's planets.

There are approximately 32,380 Hive Worlds in the Imperium so about 3.2% of all imperial worlds are Hiveworlds. The problem is that these Hiveworlds have a disproportional amount of inhabitants.
These populations range from ca 25 billions (Scintilla which is the smallest i know of) to 500 billion inhabitants (Ichar IV) and possibly even more.

Which are drops in the bucket of the "uncounted quintillions" of people in the Imperium.

 Psienesis wrote:
Which are drops in the bucket of the "uncounted quintillions" of people in the Imperium.

I would rather argue that most of these "uncounted quintillions" must come from Hiveworlds since these worlds have always been described as the most densely populated worlds within the Imperium.
After all, what are the alternatives? Civilised worlds are roughly comparable to modern day earth, so single digit billion numbers are likely for the average one.
Forgeworlds are like Hiveworlds, just even more hellish and rarer. Feudal worlds and Feral Worlds usualy have only relatively small populations.

Being the "most densely populated" does not mean they account for the majority of the population. Two different metrics there... almost a textbook example of an "apples and oranges comparison".

Let's say a given region has a total population of 1 million people. Its three largest cities each have 100,000 people living in them.

All those small towns, crossroads, flyspecks and truckstops don't have more than 10,000 people each... but there's sure a heck of a lot of 'em.

 morganfreeman wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:


I'm human, and I don't fight for dominance. Pretty much 100% of everyone I have ever known is human, and very few of them have fought for dominance. Curious.

This is silly.

Have you ever in your life wanted a better job? How about a promotion? A fatter paycheck? A bigger house? Hotter girlfriend / wife (or even a girlfriend / wife at all)? Better car? More influence among your circle of friends?

None of these things are dominance. Dominance is being at the topic of a power structure. Human beings as a general rule have no such urge either as individuals or as a species.

Some people do, but there are special words for them ("power-hungry". "control freak") for a reason.

 Psienesis wrote:
Being the "most densely populated" does not mean they account for the majority of the population. Two different metrics there... almost a textbook example of an "apples and oranges comparison".

Let's say a given region has a total population of 1 million people. Its three largest cities each have 100,000 people living in them.

All those small towns, crossroads, flyspecks and truckstops don't have more than 10,000 people each... but there's sure a heck of a lot of 'em.

If the description of the Imperium we have so far is suposed to work, then yes, Hiveworlds have to house the majority of the Imperium's population.
Let's do the math ? There are 32000 Hiveworlds with, let's say, 150 billion people on average (another thread on imperial population used this number so let's do the same) -> 32000 x 150 (10'9) -> 4800000000000000 or 4,8 Quadrillion people on Hiveworlds alone. Just to match this every other Imperial World would have to house on average 4,8 billion people which simply does not seem to be the case.

The number of Hive Worlds only accounts for slightly more than 3% of all planets possessed by the Imperium.

. Just to match this every other Imperial World would have to house on average 4,8 billion people which simply does not seem to be the case.

Modern-day Earth would be considered an "Imperial World" and it has over 7 billion people on it. It would not be at all difficult to match or exceed the total population of Hive Worlds with just Imperial-class Worlds. This does not even take into consideration Forge Worlds, Agri Worlds, Death Worlds, Dead Worlds, Tomb Worlds, Shrine Worlds or War Worlds.

Where does the 3% come from anyway?

We know that there are 1 million planets in the Imperium and that there are 32k Hive Worlds.

And we know there are 1 million planets because of a line of fluff that goes to say there is about 1 planet per marine.

Which is ridiculous really.

They're blue

 Furyou Miko wrote:
We know that there are 1 million planets in the Imperium and that there are 32k Hive Worlds.

I know that, I mean where does the 32k number come from (as in what book)?

BRB 5th Ed.

Thanks.

 Psienesis wrote:
Being the "most densely populated" does not mean they account for the majority of the population. Two different metrics there... almost a textbook example of an "apples and oranges comparison".

Let's say a given region has a total population of 1 million people. Its three largest cities each have 100,000 people living in them.

All those small towns, crossroads, flyspecks and truckstops don't have more than 10,000 people each... but there's sure a heck of a lot of 'em.

I crunched some numbers a while ago and Hive Worlds actually seem to contribute the most to the overall population of the imperium, with something like five quadrillion citizens from hive worlds alone or something along those lines.

"5 quadrillion citizens" doesn't mean anything when we don't know the ceiling.

 Psienesis wrote:
"5 quadrillion citizens" doesn't mean anything when we don't know the ceiling.

Well what's the average population of non-hive worlds. A billion or two?

Well, Earth here in M3 has over 7 billion... with resources to support twice that with certain systemic changes.

Lexicanum refers to this type of world as classified as a "Civilized World", with populations ranging from 15 million to 10 billion. Though, a world of only 15m people would be a tiny rock.

They are Xenos. That is the only negative quality that matters.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
"5 quadrillion citizens" doesn't mean anything when we don't know the ceiling.

Well what's the average population of non-hive worlds. A billion or two?

Agro worlds have something like 5 - 15 million people don't they? There are a fair number of those to feed the quadrillions of citizens.

 PhillyT wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
"5 quadrillion citizens" doesn't mean anything when we don't know the ceiling.

Well what's the average population of non-hive worlds. A billion or two?

Agro worlds have something like 5 - 15 million people don't they? There are a fair number of those to feed the quadrillions of citizens.

A Quadrillion in english is 1x10'15 (10'24 in german and french). It would require between 200 million and 67 million worlds with populations of 5 to 15 x 10'6 to fill just the first Quadrillion
Psienesis's argument that earth currently has 7 billion inhabitants and serves as an example of civilised worlds is certainly a valid one but there are two problems.
First, 10 billion people are the upper limit for imperial civilised worlds and earth with it's 7 billion is already getting relatively close. I would be wary of using it as a template for the average civilised world.
Second, even if we assume that 60% ( this way they are not only the most common one but indeed make up the majority of imperial worlds) of all imperial worlds are civilised worlds and that the average population is indeed 7 billion for them then would still require an average of 1,6 billion people for what is essentialy a mix of feudal worlds, mining worlds, ferral worlds, deathworlds and agriworlds, non of which get even close to that number. Forgeworlds are the exception but besides Mars, the largest i know (Gryphone IV) off has a mere 8 billion inhabitants and their rarity and relatively (compared to Hiveworld and the largest civilised worlds) limited populations might make them a non issue anyway.

To wrap up that argument, assuming that my average Hiveworld of 150 billion is correct and that no more than 60% of all imperial worlds are civilised worlds with an average population of no higher than 7 billion (which is imo a pretty generous estimation), it would be fair to say that Hiveworlds, despite their relative rarity, house the majority of the Imperial population.

I think this about sums up most fluff arguments in 40k. Very exact calculations about stuff that doesn't exist, can change at any time, using figures that may or may not be true, but are always able to be proven false, even if they aren't.

Second, even if we assume that 60% ( this way they are not only the most common one but indeed make up the majority of imperial worlds) of all imperial worlds are civilised worlds and that the average population is indeed 7 billion for them then would still require an average of 1,6 billion people for what is essentialy a mix of feudal worlds, mining worlds, ferral worlds, deathworlds and agriworlds, non of which get even close to that number. Forgeworlds are the exception but besides Mars, the largest i know (Gryphone IV) off has a mere 8 billion inhabitants and their rarity and relatively (compared to Hiveworld and the largest civilised worlds) limited populations might make them a non issue anyway.

The problem lies in the fact that we're given an exact number of Hive Worlds, but only generalizations on their populations and, more importantly, the other worlds are given either very broad ranges of populations... or are counted in varying ways.

A Mining World is also an Industrial World, both of which are different from Forge Worlds, for example. We're provided typical averages from some other types of worlds (even if this average doesn't make any sense in relation to other fluff... with some Death Worlds having populations of up to 15 million, while others have under 200k, like Baal.) And then there are the classifications of worlds for which we have no data, like Fortress Worlds. Cadia is such a world... how many people are residents of the planet Cadia?

We're simply not told.

Again, we run into the problem of not knowing the Imperium's overall population, but knowing that Hive Worlds only account for 3% of the total number of worlds it possesses.

We also run the problem of these being pretty rough numbers. The "one world per marine" thing is pretty redicuous, and there could be hundereds of thousands of worlds, or billions of worlds. According to NBC (and whatever source they got it from) there are "8.8 billion habitable Earth-size planets exist in Milky Way alone." The numbers we have to work with are not exact enough to be sure.

Guys, guys HELLOOOO! This thread is about the Tau...

 Psienesis wrote:

Second, even if we assume that 60% ( this way they are not only the most common one but indeed make up the majority of imperial worlds) of all imperial worlds are civilised worlds and that the average population is indeed 7 billion for them then would still require an average of 1,6 billion people for what is essentialy a mix of feudal worlds, mining worlds, ferral worlds, deathworlds and agriworlds, non of which get even close to that number. Forgeworlds are the exception but besides Mars, the largest i know (Gryphone IV) off has a mere 8 billion inhabitants and their rarity and relatively (compared to Hiveworld and the largest civilised worlds) limited populations might make them a non issue anyway.

The problem lies in the fact that we're given an exact number of Hive Worlds, but only generalizations on their populations and, more importantly, the other worlds are given either very broad ranges of populations... or are counted in varying ways.

A Mining World is also an Industrial World, both of which are different from Forge Worlds, for example. We're provided typical averages from some other types of worlds (even if this average doesn't make any sense in relation to other fluff... with some Death Worlds having populations of up to 15 million, while others have under 200k, like Baal.) And then there are the classifications of worlds for which we have no data, like Fortress Worlds. Cadia is such a world... how many people are residents of the planet Cadia?

We're simply not told.

We do know about Cadia. Cadia is listed with a population of 250 million. (Codex Eye of Terror, p. 24)