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So long as you're making the distinction between fascism and Nazism, the former is pretty easy to understand. Aside from violence as a justifiable political tool, fascism can be boiled down to corporatism, military expansion, national community, cult of personality and jingoism.

Since we don't know how Tau economics work, we can take that one off the list, but they definitely have the other aspects in spades.

 Las wrote:
So long as you're making the distinction between fascism and Nazism, the former is pretty easy to understand. Aside from violence as a justifiable political tool, fascism can be boiled down to corporatism, military expansion, national community, cult of personality and jingoism.

Since we don't know how Tau economics work, we can take that one off the list, but they definitely have the other aspects in spades.

If you're referring to me, then yeah. That's what I was thinking of when I brought up the semblance.
Which makes it all the more amusing when someone tries to pass those traits off as positive, or part of Tau genetics.

 Inky wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:


Er.... thats not fascism. Thats a hybrid communist state. If it were fascist there would be corporations involved. Unless I missed some fluff there's no mention of that.
but at the end of the day Fascism/Communism, both are two peas of the same pod. They are totolitarian thought controlling dictatorships that manage their economies.

I would argue that the very existence of a caste system and a ruling class by genetics rules out any influence of Marxism and although we don't really know much about Tau and it's attitude towards private enterprise(though I'd love to be directed towards some fluff/proved wrong), I'd still be firmly arguing that they're more towards Fascism than Communism. Then again, Stalinism is practically the all-pervading ethos of the 41st millenium, but that's another question entirely, as to his policies, Marxism, and socialism in general.
I would still postulate that the Tau are closer to fascism purely by the mix of policies and ideas it has, what with the very concept of the 'greater good' having huge significance in both strains of thought, but the very idea that it's the state (or the majikul spaceman equivilent) that matters most is a primarily fascist idea.
I think, I'm still a little creaky on some aspects of it, and I just can't seem to get into fascist ideology like one can with socialism, conservatism or anarchism. At least those ones are a tad...understandable? if that's the right word?

Aare you arguing communists states don't have different classes? That would be in error if comparing real world examples vs. theory.
Again, fascist states are combinations of corporations/government (think modern China). I am not aware of corporate structures in Tau society. Am I in error on that?

I would question the idea of military expansion in relation to the tau. Most examples of expansion we get are diplomatic and not military. You know kroot, vespin, and even humans, at first. Tau are flexible in how they expand. It's not always at the end of a gun.

It's always at the end of a gun if there isn't a handy mind control device to be used like with the Vespid... well, as a back-up plan, anyway. Smiles and pretty beads first of all, then the guns come in if you say no.

In Tau society, only the Earth cast produces anything, so there isn't really any room for corporations - corporations are, inherently, anti-communist institutions anyway. One of the reasons that communism failed IRL is because those trying to put it into place couldn't move past their economy-based pasts.

nomotog wrote:
I would question the idea of military expansion in relation to the tau. Most examples of expansion we get are diplomatic and not military. You know kroot, vespin, and even humans, at first. Tau are flexible in how they expand. It's not always at the end of a gun.

But the threat is ALWAYS there. Declining peaceful incorporation leads directly to the fire caste bringing the hurt. Seceding from the Empire is as out of the question as it would be for Imperial worlds. Any way you slice it, their expansionism is aggressive and predatory.

 Frazzled wrote:

 Inky wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:


Er.... thats not fascism. Thats a hybrid communist state. If it were fascist there would be corporations involved. Unless I missed some fluff there's no mention of that.
but at the end of the day Fascism/Communism, both are two peas of the same pod. They are totolitarian thought controlling dictatorships that manage their economies.

I would argue that the very existence of a caste system and a ruling class by genetics rules out any influence of Marxism and although we don't really know much about Tau and it's attitude towards private enterprise(though I'd love to be directed towards some fluff/proved wrong), I'd still be firmly arguing that they're more towards Fascism than Communism. Then again, Stalinism is practically the all-pervading ethos of the 41st millenium, but that's another question entirely, as to his policies, Marxism, and socialism in general.
I would still postulate that the Tau are closer to fascism purely by the mix of policies and ideas it has, what with the very concept of the 'greater good' having huge significance in both strains of thought, but the very idea that it's the state (or the majikul spaceman equivilent) that matters most is a primarily fascist idea.
I think, I'm still a little creaky on some aspects of it, and I just can't seem to get into fascist ideology like one can with socialism, conservatism or anarchism. At least those ones are a tad...understandable? if that's the right word?

Aare you arguing communists states don't have different classes? That would be in error if comparing real world examples vs. theory.
Again, fascist states are combinations of corporations/government (think modern China). I am not aware of corporate structures in Tau society. Am I in error on that?

Not unless you see the different casts as corporations? Communism is not very keen on the idea that you could be born to be something. It's important you have the option to choose, so they might not like the cast system.

I don't think that any modren form of government will really fit the tau too well. Culturally they don't feel that advanced.

nomotog wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 Inky wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:


Er.... thats not fascism. Thats a hybrid communist state. If it were fascist there would be corporations involved. Unless I missed some fluff there's no mention of that.
but at the end of the day Fascism/Communism, both are two peas of the same pod. They are totolitarian thought controlling dictatorships that manage their economies.

I would argue that the very existence of a caste system and a ruling class by genetics rules out any influence of Marxism and although we don't really know much about Tau and it's attitude towards private enterprise(though I'd love to be directed towards some fluff/proved wrong), I'd still be firmly arguing that they're more towards Fascism than Communism. Then again, Stalinism is practically the all-pervading ethos of the 41st millenium, but that's another question entirely, as to his policies, Marxism, and socialism in general.
I would still postulate that the Tau are closer to fascism purely by the mix of policies and ideas it has, what with the very concept of the 'greater good' having huge significance in both strains of thought, but the very idea that it's the state (or the majikul spaceman equivilent) that matters most is a primarily fascist idea.
I think, I'm still a little creaky on some aspects of it, and I just can't seem to get into fascist ideology like one can with socialism, conservatism or anarchism. At least those ones are a tad...understandable? if that's the right word?

Aare you arguing communists states don't have different classes? That would be in error if comparing real world examples vs. theory.
Again, fascist states are combinations of corporations/government (think modern China). I am not aware of corporate structures in Tau society. Am I in error on that?

Not unless you see the different casts as corporations? Communism is not very keen on the idea that you could be born to be something. It's important you have the option to choose, so they might not like the cast system.

I don't think that any modren form of government will really fit the tau too well. Culturally they don't feel that advanced.

On paper Communism does not tolerate social classes, but if you look at the history of the Soviet Union you find that that is unequivocally untrue.

 Las wrote:

nomotog wrote:
I would question the idea of military expansion in relation to the tau. Most examples of expansion we get are diplomatic and not military. You know kroot, vespin, and even humans, at first. Tau are flexible in how they expand. It's not always at the end of a gun.

But the threat is ALWAYS there. Declining peaceful incorporation leads directly to the fire caste bringing the hurt. Seceding from the Empire is as out of the question as it would be for Imperial worlds. Any way you slice it, their expansionism is aggressive and predatory.

I can't think of any examples where a peaceful decline was meet with gunfire. (Though in 40k a decline is often delivered with gunfire.) I also can't think of an example where the tau meet someone and then ignored them. I might be able to look that up though. (The FF books have a lot of extra tau fluff.)

 Furyou Miko wrote:
It's always at the end of a gun if there isn't a handy mind control device to be used like with the Vespid... well, as a back-up plan, anyway. Smiles and pretty beads first of all, then the guns come in if you say no.

In Tau society, only the Earth cast produces anything, so there isn't really any room for corporations - corporations are, inherently, anti-communist institutions anyway. One of the reasons that communism failed IRL is because those trying to put it into place couldn't move past their economy-based pasts.

The mind control bit is more a IoM theory. Officially they are communication helms. One theory I have is that they are both and that vespin just have mind that has no will? It's an odd blend of the two.

Yeah, but the Soviet Union were truly crappy at being communist.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
It's always at the end of a gun if there isn't a handy mind control device to be used like with the Vespid... well, as a back-up plan, anyway. Smiles and pretty beads first of all, then the guns come in if you say no.

In Tau society, only the Earth cast produces anything, so there isn't really any room for corporations - corporations are, inherently, anti-communist institutions anyway. One of the reasons that communism failed IRL is because those trying to put it into place couldn't move past their economy-based pasts.

You bring a good point. Internal (Tau only society) is a combination of caste and lack of free enterprise. Its a common themein sci fi from space commies to Membari to...well Tau.

External its like many more creative (or mayhaps less militarily powerful) empires. Again the British Empire (particularly the Raj), but also the Spanish and Portugese empires.
Now that OI think about it those might be even more fitting. They both were driven forward by greed and ideology. Both were "sneaky" sometimes using military force, sometimes allies, but always for the "Greater Good (of God and the Spanish Empire). "

 Frazzled wrote:

 Inky wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:


Er.... thats not fascism. Thats a hybrid communist state. If it were fascist there would be corporations involved. Unless I missed some fluff there's no mention of that.
but at the end of the day Fascism/Communism, both are two peas of the same pod. They are totolitarian thought controlling dictatorships that manage their economies.

I would argue that the very existence of a caste system and a ruling class by genetics rules out any influence of Marxism and although we don't really know much about Tau and it's attitude towards private enterprise(though I'd love to be directed towards some fluff/proved wrong), I'd still be firmly arguing that they're more towards Fascism than Communism. Then again, Stalinism is practically the all-pervading ethos of the 41st millenium, but that's another question entirely, as to his policies, Marxism, and socialism in general.
I would still postulate that the Tau are closer to fascism purely by the mix of policies and ideas it has, what with the very concept of the 'greater good' having huge significance in both strains of thought, but the very idea that it's the state (or the majikul spaceman equivilent) that matters most is a primarily fascist idea.
I think, I'm still a little creaky on some aspects of it, and I just can't seem to get into fascist ideology like one can with socialism, conservatism or anarchism. At least those ones are a tad...understandable? if that's the right word?

Aare you arguing communists states don't have different classes? That would be in error if comparing real world examples vs. theory.
Again, fascist states are combinations of corporations/government (think modern China). I am not aware of corporate structures in Tau society. Am I in error on that?

I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at here, I'm saying that Tau are closer to by the books fascism than by the books communism, and that's why I said that the class system in Tau is more based upon ethnicity than anything else. Also, Tau society has bugger all in common with any idea of what Marxism is. Though the Imperium is based very heavily on USSR (waiting years for Govt. to do anything and a huge administrative body) I fail to see that many correlations with actual socialism/marxist thought and anything that we've seen in the Tau empire. The greater good espoused by the Tau refers to the state and empire, something that communists (not leninists, stalinists or any of the actual practised socialist states) would like gone after a while.
And as to your point about communist states and classes, well, at least there was some form of social mobility in the USSR, what with Gorby going from tractor driver to premier, and certainly not the same amount of distinction made between the classes/castes as in Italy/Japan/Germany when they were kicking about.
But I have a legitimate and non-snarky question to you: Do you honestly believe that the Tau are communist?
And by communist I mean in the ideological sense, not in terms of N.Korea/USSR/China (all of which have fairly different operating systems)

I'm truly sorry if this is written in a weird way, as I haven't slept all weekend and have had 2 productions of Macbeth to die in ;_;

On paper Communism does not tolerate social classes, but if you look at the history of the Soviet Union you find that that is unequivocally untrue.

EXACTLY!
There was always at least the workers, skilled technocrats, and/or party.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Inky wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 Inky wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:


Er.... thats not fascism. Thats a hybrid communist state. If it were fascist there would be corporations involved. Unless I missed some fluff there's no mention of that.
but at the end of the day Fascism/Communism, both are two peas of the same pod. They are totolitarian thought controlling dictatorships that manage their economies.

I would argue that the very existence of a caste system and a ruling class by genetics rules out any influence of Marxism and although we don't really know much about Tau and it's attitude towards private enterprise(though I'd love to be directed towards some fluff/proved wrong), I'd still be firmly arguing that they're more towards Fascism than Communism. Then again, Stalinism is practically the all-pervading ethos of the 41st millenium, but that's another question entirely, as to his policies, Marxism, and socialism in general.
I would still postulate that the Tau are closer to fascism purely by the mix of policies and ideas it has, what with the very concept of the 'greater good' having huge significance in both strains of thought, but the very idea that it's the state (or the majikul spaceman equivilent) that matters most is a primarily fascist idea.
I think, I'm still a little creaky on some aspects of it, and I just can't seem to get into fascist ideology like one can with socialism, conservatism or anarchism. At least those ones are a tad...understandable? if that's the right word?

Aare you arguing communists states don't have different classes? That would be in error if comparing real world examples vs. theory.
Again, fascist states are combinations of corporations/government (think modern China). I am not aware of corporate structures in Tau society. Am I in error on that?

I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at here, I'm saying that Tau are closer to by the books fascism than by the books communism, and that's why I said that the class system in Tau is more based upon ethnicity than anything else. Also, Tau society has bugger all in common with any idea of what Marxism is. Though the Imperium is based very heavily on USSR (waiting years for Govt. to do anything and a huge administrative body) I fail to see that many correlations with actual socialism/marxist thought and anything that we've seen in the Tau empire. The greater good espoused by the Tau refers to the state and empire, something that communists (not leninists, stalinists or any of the actual practised socialist states) would like gone after a while.
And as to your point about communist states and classes, well, at least there was some form of social mobility in the USSR, what with Gorby going from tractor driver to premier, and certainly not the same amount of distinction made between the classes/castes as in Italy/Japan/Germany when they were kicking about.
But I have a legitimate and non-snarky question to you: Do you honestly believe that the Tau are communist?
And by communist I mean in the ideological sense, not in terms of N.Korea/USSR/China (all of which have fairly different operating systems)

I'm truly sorry if this is written in a weird way, as I haven't slept all weekend and have had 2 productions of Macbeth to die in ;_;

Well at the end of the day they're both "isms" and start to blend together (again think China). The 4 classes mucks that up a bit with biological classes, which puts in more in line with Huxley. I wonder what the workers think of this...

They'll think whatever they're god-damn told to think! ;D

and a certain Ferris Bueller quote springs to mind...

nomotog wrote:

 Las wrote:

nomotog wrote:
I would question the idea of military expansion in relation to the tau. Most examples of expansion we get are diplomatic and not military. You know kroot, vespin, and even humans, at first. Tau are flexible in how they expand. It's not always at the end of a gun.

But the threat is ALWAYS there. Declining peaceful incorporation leads directly to the fire caste bringing the hurt. Seceding from the Empire is as out of the question as it would be for Imperial worlds. Any way you slice it, their expansionism is aggressive and predatory.

I can't think of any examples where a peaceful decline was meet with gunfire. (Though in 40k a decline is often delivered with gunfire.) I also can't think of an example where the tau meet someone and then ignored them. I might be able to look that up though. (The FF books have a lot of extra tau fluff.)

Tbh, I'm just going by lexicanum, which outlines the Tau directive toward incorporating new worlds into the Empire. Contact -> Diplomcay -> Violence.

Didn't the Tau attack the IoM after "negotiations" failed?

Yea, the governor said something along the lines of "No", the Tau did a hostile takeover, whereupon the governor was essentially "You don't know who you're antagonizing", and the Tau thought oh they got a couple hundred worlds.

They still don't grasp the scale of the Imperium.

 Las wrote:

nomotog wrote:

 Las wrote:

nomotog wrote:
I would question the idea of military expansion in relation to the tau. Most examples of expansion we get are diplomatic and not military. You know kroot, vespin, and even humans, at first. Tau are flexible in how they expand. It's not always at the end of a gun.

But the threat is ALWAYS there. Declining peaceful incorporation leads directly to the fire caste bringing the hurt. Seceding from the Empire is as out of the question as it would be for Imperial worlds. Any way you slice it, their expansionism is aggressive and predatory.

I can't think of any examples where a peaceful decline was meet with gunfire. (Though in 40k a decline is often delivered with gunfire.) I also can't think of an example where the tau meet someone and then ignored them. I might be able to look that up though. (The FF books have a lot of extra tau fluff.)

Tbh, I'm just going by lexicanum, which outlines the Tau directive toward incorporating new worlds into the Empire. Contact -> Diplomcay -> Violence.

Oh. I don't know if lexicanm is right on that or not. It tends to be, but lexucanm doesn't have everything.

 Quickjager wrote:
Yea, the governor said something along the lines of "No", the Tau did a hostile takeover, whereupon the governor was essentially "You don't know who you're antagonizing", and the Tau thought oh they got a couple hundred worlds.

They still don't grasp the scale of the Imperium.

You might say they awoke a sleeping giant.

lol history.

nomotog wrote:

 Las wrote:

nomotog wrote:

 Las wrote:

nomotog wrote:
I would question the idea of military expansion in relation to the tau. Most examples of expansion we get are diplomatic and not military. You know kroot, vespin, and even humans, at first. Tau are flexible in how they expand. It's not always at the end of a gun.

But the threat is ALWAYS there. Declining peaceful incorporation leads directly to the fire caste bringing the hurt. Seceding from the Empire is as out of the question as it would be for Imperial worlds. Any way you slice it, their expansionism is aggressive and predatory.

I can't think of any examples where a peaceful decline was meet with gunfire. (Though in 40k a decline is often delivered with gunfire.) I also can't think of an example where the tau meet someone and then ignored them. I might be able to look that up though. (The FF books have a lot of extra tau fluff.)

Tbh, I'm just going by lexicanum, which outlines the Tau directive toward incorporating new worlds into the Empire. Contact -> Diplomcay -> Violence.

Oh. I don't know if lexicanm is right on that or not. It tends to be, but lexucanm doesn't have everything.

Their cited source is the 6th ed Tau dex, which I don't have. I don't really have anything else to go on.

 Las wrote:

nomotog wrote:

 Las wrote:

nomotog wrote:

 Las wrote:

nomotog wrote:
I would question the idea of military expansion in relation to the tau. Most examples of expansion we get are diplomatic and not military. You know kroot, vespin, and even humans, at first. Tau are flexible in how they expand. It's not always at the end of a gun.

But the threat is ALWAYS there. Declining peaceful incorporation leads directly to the fire caste bringing the hurt. Seceding from the Empire is as out of the question as it would be for Imperial worlds. Any way you slice it, their expansionism is aggressive and predatory.

I can't think of any examples where a peaceful decline was meet with gunfire. (Though in 40k a decline is often delivered with gunfire.) I also can't think of an example where the tau meet someone and then ignored them. I might be able to look that up though. (The FF books have a lot of extra tau fluff.)

Tbh, I'm just going by lexicanum, which outlines the Tau directive toward incorporating new worlds into the Empire. Contact -> Diplomcay -> Violence.

Oh. I don't know if lexicanm is right on that or not. It tends to be, but lexucanm doesn't have everything.

Their cited source is the 6th ed Tau dex, which I don't have. I don't really have anything else to go on.

I don't have it either. Someone dose though, maybe they will stop by and fill in where it comes from.

Though for my 2 cents I don't like the join or die take because it's just kind of lazy. Tau can do a whole lot more then threaten.

 Las wrote:

nomotog wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 Inky wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:


Er.... thats not fascism. Thats a hybrid communist state. If it were fascist there would be corporations involved. Unless I missed some fluff there's no mention of that.
but at the end of the day Fascism/Communism, both are two peas of the same pod. They are totolitarian thought controlling dictatorships that manage their economies.

I would argue that the very existence of a caste system and a ruling class by genetics rules out any influence of Marxism and although we don't really know much about Tau and it's attitude towards private enterprise(though I'd love to be directed towards some fluff/proved wrong), I'd still be firmly arguing that they're more towards Fascism than Communism. Then again, Stalinism is practically the all-pervading ethos of the 41st millenium, but that's another question entirely, as to his policies, Marxism, and socialism in general.
I would still postulate that the Tau are closer to fascism purely by the mix of policies and ideas it has, what with the very concept of the 'greater good' having huge significance in both strains of thought, but the very idea that it's the state (or the majikul spaceman equivilent) that matters most is a primarily fascist idea.
I think, I'm still a little creaky on some aspects of it, and I just can't seem to get into fascist ideology like one can with socialism, conservatism or anarchism. At least those ones are a tad...understandable? if that's the right word?

Aare you arguing communists states don't have different classes? That would be in error if comparing real world examples vs. theory.
Again, fascist states are combinations of corporations/government (think modern China). I am not aware of corporate structures in Tau society. Am I in error on that?

Not unless you see the different casts as corporations? Communism is not very keen on the idea that you could be born to be something. It's important you have the option to choose, so they might not like the cast system.

I don't think that any modren form of government will really fit the tau too well. Culturally they don't feel that advanced.

On paper Communism does not tolerate social classes, but if you look at the history of the Soviet Union you find that that is unequivocally untrue.

Communism has never existed. All real life examples of Communism got stuck on stage two with a dictator to reform society into a perfect Marxist community.

If I try and build an ikea chair and only get to step two because the instructions were faulty and the pieces were defective, the chair still existed, it just sucked in the first place.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Las wrote:

nomotog wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 Inky wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:


Er.... thats not fascism. Thats a hybrid communist state. If it were fascist there would be corporations involved. Unless I missed some fluff there's no mention of that.
but at the end of the day Fascism/Communism, both are two peas of the same pod. They are totolitarian thought controlling dictatorships that manage their economies.

I would argue that the very existence of a caste system and a ruling class by genetics rules out any influence of Marxism and although we don't really know much about Tau and it's attitude towards private enterprise(though I'd love to be directed towards some fluff/proved wrong), I'd still be firmly arguing that they're more towards Fascism than Communism. Then again, Stalinism is practically the all-pervading ethos of the 41st millenium, but that's another question entirely, as to his policies, Marxism, and socialism in general.
I would still postulate that the Tau are closer to fascism purely by the mix of policies and ideas it has, what with the very concept of the 'greater good' having huge significance in both strains of thought, but the very idea that it's the state (or the majikul spaceman equivilent) that matters most is a primarily fascist idea.
I think, I'm still a little creaky on some aspects of it, and I just can't seem to get into fascist ideology like one can with socialism, conservatism or anarchism. At least those ones are a tad...understandable? if that's the right word?

Aare you arguing communists states don't have different classes? That would be in error if comparing real world examples vs. theory.
Again, fascist states are combinations of corporations/government (think modern China). I am not aware of corporate structures in Tau society. Am I in error on that?

Not unless you see the different casts as corporations? Communism is not very keen on the idea that you could be born to be something. It's important you have the option to choose, so they might not like the cast system.

I don't think that any modren form of government will really fit the tau too well. Culturally they don't feel that advanced.

On paper Communism does not tolerate social classes, but if you look at the history of the Soviet Union you find that that is unequivocally untrue.

Communism has never existed. All real life examples of Communism got stuck on stage two with a dictator to reform society into a perfect Marxist community.

Which means it can't exist in a human society. We're kind of going of course here though.
In the novels that I can't force myself to read, is there any discussion of Tau cast members individually not liking their positions, what they do etc. or are we really dealing with happy little sentient drones?

nomotog wrote:
I don't have it either. Someone dose though, maybe they will stop by and fill in where it comes from.

Though for my 2 cents I don't like the join or die take because it's just kind of lazy. Tau can do a whole lot more then threaten.

The Lexicanum already cites the 6th ed codex. I understand liking a faction but it's best to research them properly. The codex implies pretty heavily (or even outright states) that the Tau want all to join the greater good, one way or the other. They don't really give others a choice. Of course they use a carrot and stick approach but they will always use the stick when the carrot fails.

There's a pretty detailed description of the Damocles Crusade in the codex. The whole thing starts when the Ethereals launch an elaborate plan to incorporate the worlds in the Damocles Gulf.

This is directly from page 14 of the codex:

"To some of the High Council, the Imperium seemed so powerful that overt aggression might lead to a war that they could not win. The leaders of the Fire caste called for war, but it was Aun'Va, an Ethereal second in authority only to
Ethereal Supreme Aun'Wei, who determined the plan."

It then goes into detail of how the Tau try to entice the worlds to join them. So yea, it outright states that the Tau brought on the conflict since there was really only one way the Imperium would react. The codex also implies that the Tau and other species are all being mind controlled through pheromones by the Ethereals. It also say this about the Vespids:

"There have been whispers alluding to a hidden connection between the Vespids' calm acceptance of annexation and the interface helms given to their leaders, though no evidence to support such claims has ever been forthcoming."

The Tau have a sinister side, just like all other 40K factions. There is no truly "good" faction.

 Frazzled wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Las wrote:

nomotog wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 Inky wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:


Er.... thats not fascism. Thats a hybrid communist state. If it were fascist there would be corporations involved. Unless I missed some fluff there's no mention of that.
but at the end of the day Fascism/Communism, both are two peas of the same pod. They are totolitarian thought controlling dictatorships that manage their economies.

I would argue that the very existence of a caste system and a ruling class by genetics rules out any influence of Marxism and although we don't really know much about Tau and it's attitude towards private enterprise(though I'd love to be directed towards some fluff/proved wrong), I'd still be firmly arguing that they're more towards Fascism than Communism. Then again, Stalinism is practically the all-pervading ethos of the 41st millenium, but that's another question entirely, as to his policies, Marxism, and socialism in general.
I would still postulate that the Tau are closer to fascism purely by the mix of policies and ideas it has, what with the very concept of the 'greater good' having huge significance in both strains of thought, but the very idea that it's the state (or the majikul spaceman equivilent) that matters most is a primarily fascist idea.
I think, I'm still a little creaky on some aspects of it, and I just can't seem to get into fascist ideology like one can with socialism, conservatism or anarchism. At least those ones are a tad...understandable? if that's the right word?

Aare you arguing communists states don't have different classes? That would be in error if comparing real world examples vs. theory.
Again, fascist states are combinations of corporations/government (think modern China). I am not aware of corporate structures in Tau society. Am I in error on that?

Not unless you see the different casts as corporations? Communism is not very keen on the idea that you could be born to be something. It's important you have the option to choose, so they might not like the cast system.

I don't think that any modren form of government will really fit the tau too well. Culturally they don't feel that advanced.

On paper Communism does not tolerate social classes, but if you look at the history of the Soviet Union you find that that is unequivocally untrue.

Communism has never existed. All real life examples of Communism got stuck on stage two with a dictator to reform society into a perfect Marxist community.

Which means it can't exist in a human society. We're kind of going of course here though.
In the novels that I can't force myself to read, is there any discussion of Tau cast members individually not liking their positions, what they do etc. or are we really dealing with happy little sentient drones?

There would have to be Tau books for us to know that.

 Wyzilla wrote:
There would have to be Tau books for us to know that.

Doesn't the whole Farsight Enclave thing kinda explain that? They're happy as long as there are Ethereals nearby. Once the Ethereal(s?) accompanying them is killed, they quickly decide to reject their given role in society and form the Enclaves.

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
There would have to be Tau books for us to know that.

Doesn't the whole Farsight Enclave thing kinda explain that? They're happy as long as there are Ethereals nearby. Once the Ethereal(s?) accompanying them is killed, they quickly decide to reject their given role in society and form the Enclaves.

This is a huge point. I just took a look at the Farsight lexicanum page and holy gak I hadn't quite realized just how creepy and weird the ethereals really are. How anyone could argue that they aren't up to some serious BS is beyond me. From Lexicanum:

"After the incident on Arthas Moloch, Farsight returned to his established holdings on the far side of the Damocles Gulf. Farsight began to secretly become highly distrustful of the Ethereal Caste, coming to suspect that they may be controlling the Tau by more than simple charisma and wisdom, perhaps employing more sinister methods. In the aftermath of his victory, Farsight came to realise the threat of Chaos and the fact the universe was not the orderly rational place described in Tau philosophy. He also came to the realization that the Ethereals as a caste knew something of this but had kept it from the Tau.[4b] At first he merely thought their leadership was flawed, that the other castes would be better off seeking harmony with each other without their oversight. But the more he though on the instances where obedience to the Etherals had been taken to illogical and foolish extremes. Worse, many of the actions taken under their guidance had seemed at the time both wise and necessary seemed now deplorable and wrong.[4b] In addition, Farsight began to live far beyond the normal life span of a Tau.[4h]

The inevitable conclusion that the Ethereals' control extended beyond simple logic and loyalty to something darker drove him to sickening panic. Heresies began filling Farsights mind, and not even he truly knew why. The truth he held could dissolve the Empire and drive the Tau back to the Mont'au, a fate far worse than the Ethereals' rule. Unable to tell anyone this truth but unwilling to pretend or forget, Farsight chose exile over obedience. [4b]

Meanwhile in the Tau Empire, Ethereal Supreme Aun'va had discovered the death of the Ethereals on Arthas Moloch and the establishment of a seemingly independent Tau enclave under Farsight. Furious, he ordered O'Shovah return to the Empire to explain what exactly had transpired. Instead of returning to the Tau Empire, however, Farsight established a series of fortified strongholds along the Damocles Gulf. Contact was severed between the Farsight Enclaves and the Ethereals and it was finally confirmed that O'Shovah had turned his back on the Tau Empire.[4h] "

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Commander_Farsight

Yea, people don't seem to research their favorite factions very thoroughly. I think it's fine to have your own headcanon (I know I do) but at the same time you have to acknowledge what's official.

Also, the reason why Farsight can live so long is because of his vampiric blade. The blade itself could be from Chaos, the Necrons, or even some unknown Xenos species.

 EngulfedObject wrote:
Yea, people don't seem to research their favorite factions very thoroughly. I think it's fine to have your own headcanon (I know I do) but at the same time you have to acknowledge what's official.

Also, the reason why Farsight can live so long is because of his vampiric blade. The blade itself could be from Chaos, the Necrons, or even some unknown Xenos species.

>Favorite faction is Slaaneshi CSM's.

>Loves the fact that they're homicidal hedonistic eldritch psychopaths.

I don't see what's the problem here.

 EngulfedObject wrote:

nomotog wrote:
I don't have it either. Someone dose though, maybe they will stop by and fill in where it comes from.

Though for my 2 cents I don't like the join or die take because it's just kind of lazy. Tau can do a whole lot more then threaten.

The Lexicanum already cites the 6th ed codex. I understand liking a faction but it's best to research them properly. The codex implies pretty heavily (or even outright states) that the Tau want all to join the greater good, one way or the other. They don't really give others a choice. Of course they use a carrot and stick approach but they will always use the stick when the carrot fails.

There's a pretty detailed description of the Damocles Crusade in the codex. The whole thing starts when the Ethereals launch an elaborate plan to incorporate the worlds in the Damocles Gulf.

This is directly from page 14 of the codex:

"To some of the High Council, the Imperium seemed so powerful that overt aggression might lead to a war that they could not win. The leaders of the Fire caste called for war, but it was Aun'Va, an Ethereal second in authority only to
Ethereal Supreme Aun'Wei, who determined the plan."

It then goes into detail of how the Tau try to entice the worlds to join them. So yea, it outright states that the Tau brought on the conflict since there was really only one way the Imperium would react. The codex also implies that the Tau and other species are all being mind controlled through pheromones by the Ethereals. It also say this about the Vespids:

"There have been whispers alluding to a hidden connection between the Vespids' calm acceptance of annexation and the interface helms given to their leaders, though no evidence to support such claims has ever been forthcoming."

The Tau have a sinister side, just like all other 40K factions. There is no truly "good" faction.

Unless they changed it, that was a response to first contact with the IoM. It went kind of like you would expect. The IoM blew up a tau trading vessel. The Fire cast wanted war because, you know that is kind of their job. Then the aun overruled them and they went with diplomacy that ended up flipping a lot of border worlds. Then you have the crusade.

Unless they changed it, the pheromones and mind control are imperial theories. The joke being that the IoM just don't understand how the tau can get along with each other, so they have to make up secret conspiracies to explain away what could just be basic niceness.

If your going to do the tau sinister side, then make sure it's sinister. Don't let it be direct like "join us or die". Subtly is key.

That is unless they changed things with the last codex.