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Wow, if those leaks are true, I'm 1000% on board.

Sounds like a great continuation of the series.

Thanks for sharing!

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

The Sith are not aligned with the Empire. The only force users the Empire has are Inquisitors(some of which are not force sensitive, but all use Lightsabres)

That, I don't agree with, one bit... because, IIRC, previous canon has stated outright that someone who is not force sensitive cannot use a lightsaber.

The obvious "contradiction" is of course, when Han makes a Tauntaun hut with Luke's saber... To which I would say that it's possible that in order to be trainable in the force, both parents need to be force sensitive (I still don't buy that "midichlorians" malarky)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

I mean, don't get me wrong.... that whole thing in the spoilers does sound like an awesomely badass SW movie

I'm sorry but that sounds somewhat silly... You think that to even pick up and activate a light sabre, you have to be force sensitive? AFAIK theres nothing special about a light sabre that requires force sensitivity to use it. Its just a tool, a weapon, made of normal everyday materials like metal. Its not some mystical magical item that only activates when a Jedi picks it up, or have DNA recognition technology that rejects non Force sensitive users and only recognizes Jedi/Sith.

No, a much more credible explanation is that anyone can use a light sabre, anyone can pick it up and activate it, like Han Solo did. But due to the considerable weight and extremely dangerous nature of the weapon, only Force sensitive users can use it effectively and safely - anybody else are more likely to chop off their own limb.

Besides, General Grievous uses light sabres. Hes not force sensitive, is he?


As for the non-sensitive Imperial Inquisitors equipped with Light sabres - perhaps they're using weaker bastardised versions of light sabres with the weight reduced so that they can be used somewhat effectively and safely?

My understanding of it, is that someone force sensitive/trained in the force is required to even MAKE a lightsaber, in that, whatever/however the crystal is balanced in front of the power source, as well as the power/sensitivity of the user determines the size of the blades.

As Obi Wan was teaching Luke in Ep. 4, he was talking about not seeing, but feeling and letting the force flow through him, the lightsaber being merely an extension of him and his force "focus" (obviously, anyone who has read manuals on sword fighting/weaponized martial arts, knows that this is kind of a central thing as well... practice with your weapon until it is merely an extension of you, not something in your hand)


Also, wasn't there some throw away comment in one of the "prequel" movies about how, just because someone is force sensitive doesn't mean they are potentially powerful/sensitive enough to harness it and become a force user? As such, it would be entirely possible for characters like Grievous and others to be Sensitive, and yet be unable to touch/use the force.

Making a light sabre =/= using one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Also, wasn't there some throw away comment in one of the "prequel" movies about how, just because someone is force sensitive doesn't mean they are potentially powerful/sensitive enough to harness it and become a force user? As such, it would be entirely possible for characters like Grievous and others to be Sensitive, and yet be unable to touch/use the force

What's your evidence for that? Do you know for a fact that Grievous is force sensitive?


You mentioned previously that "previous Canon" stated that non force sensitive users cannot use a light sabre. What source is this? I thought it was the case that only force sensitive users can use a sabre effectively.

Besides, most of the EU has just been retconned into irrelevancy.

As far as I know only Sith and Jedi make lightsabers. Other orders, that don't necessarily exist anymore such as the Force witches of planet Whocares, never used them.

 Ahtman wrote:
As far as I know only Sith and Jedi make lightsabers. Other orders, that don't necessarily exist anymore such as the Force witches of planet Whocares, never used them.

Which supports the idea that only force sensitive people can make them.

It does not support the idea that only they can use them.

I'd imagine:

Only Forcers can make them.
Anyone can use them.
Only Forcers can wield them with anything remotely approaching competence. Or, well, unless you're (mostly) a robot.

I also imagine that it's not the 'considerable weight' of a lightsaber that's the problem, but more the complete and total absence of weight outside the pommel that is much of the issue. As there's no physical substance of the blade, there'd be no air resistance or mass of the blade itself to help you judge where the darned thing is, especially when you can't see it, because you're swinging it over your shoulder, for example.


Of course, someone like Grievious, or something like a practice droid would no doubt be doing numerous mathematical calculations to do with angle and length to stop them slicing an arm off.

 Compel wrote:
I'd imagine:

Only Forcers can make them.
Anyone can use them.
Only Forcers can wield them with anything remotely approaching competence. Or, well, unless you're (mostly) a robot.

Yes, I agree. I can't see why it wouldn't be like any regular weapon: where only a smith can make them, anyone can use them, but someone trained with them can use them better.

For instance, almost anyone can swing an arming sword. But only someone with training would have learned the right foot movements, stances, timing and feel of the weapon.

 Compel wrote:
I'd imagine:

Only Forcers can make them.
Anyone can use them.
Only Forcers can wield them with anything remotely approaching competence. Or, well, unless you're (mostly) a robot.

Well Greivious wasn't a robot but an alien inside a cybernetic suit. If it were that easy droids would be using them left and right. As anyone being able to use them I imagine anyone can turn them on but I also imagine using it would be the difference between a kid buttering bread and a kendo master with a blade. I would put it far beyond competence as being a difference between them.

Hence the (mostly) a robot :p

 Compel wrote:
I'd imagine:

Only Forcers can make them.
Anyone can use them.
Only Forcers can wield them with anything remotely approaching competence. Or, well, unless you're (mostly) a robot.

I also imagine that it's not the 'considerable weight' of a lightsaber that's the problem, but more the complete and total absence of weight outside the pommel that is much of the issue. As there's no physical substance of the blade, there'd be no air resistance or mass of the blade itself to help you judge where the darned thing is, especially when you can't see it, because you're swinging it over your shoulder, for example.


Of course, someone like Grievious, or something like a practice droid would no doubt be doing numerous mathematical calculations to do with angle and length to stop them slicing an arm off.

Grievous is a cyborg. His brain, and several vital internal organs (which Obi Wan uses a blaster to incinerate) are organic. So no numerous mathematical calculations for him.

I seem to remember grievous saying he was trained in the Jedi Arts in the movie. Or something. He simply kills and collects Jedi light sabers as a hobby or something.

Yes Count Dooku trained him.

 Blacksails wrote:
Wow, if those leaks are true, I'm 1000% on board.

Sounds like a great continuation of the series.

Thanks for sharing!

This.

 Swastakowey wrote:
I seem to remember grievous saying he was trained in the Jedi Arts in the movie. Or something. He simply kills and collects Jedi light sabers as a hobby or something.

I remember reading his Wookieepedia article some time ago when I was bored at work and should have been doing something productive.

I recall he was a great warrior from a martial culture prior to being turned into a cyborg. That's probably make him a pretty solid candidate to learn and develop some advanced sabre techniques.

You can totally use a Lightsabre without being force sensitive. It just helps to be force sensitive because the blade is quite dangerous if you aren't properly trained(and precognition helps in avoiding your own blade)

You don't even actually need to be force sensitive to make a lightsabre, but it helps a lot in making sure the crystal is seated correctly. IE: Its pretty darn difficult to make if you aren't, but not impossible.

Lightsabres do resonate with the force. There is a reason there is an association between them and force users, but its not a mandatory connection. General Grevious is a canon example of a non-sensitive Sabre duelist.

There aren't any non-force wielder Lightsabre combat forms, so trying to learn to use one without being force sensitive might be an issue, but its far from impossible.

I would have thought that learning the force would naturally have your skills with a lightsabre increase as time goes on.

Like, luke didnt train how to use a lightsabre, he trained how to let the force do it with him. His training with yoda and obi wan was all about the force. Even the blast shield helmet scene. Luke was the only one focusing on the lightsabre side of it at the beginning.

So in my opinion, I think those trained in the force can simply have the force or whatever guide them "naturally" in how to use the lightsabre but any old person with practice can use a lightsabre as well. They just wont have the benefit of the force gifting them their ability.

It seems the closer one is to the force, the more they can rely on the force to aid them in their lightsabre attacks. So more force = more saber prowess. I doubt jedi train how to use light sabres very often, it seems very force only orientated.

Yet again, I only know stuff from the movies. Anything outside of the movies and I know nothing.

In that spoiler leak, it mentions the rule of two. What is that?

 Ratius wrote:
In that spoiler leak, it mentions the rule of two. What is that?

Sith masters only take a single apprentice. Eventually, when the apprentice becomes powerful enough, their final test to become a master is to kill their master. If they succeed, they take an apprentice, and the cycle continues. If they don't, they either die and the master finds a new apprentice, or training continues.

If I'm mistaken on any points, feel free to correct me.

 Ratius wrote:
In that spoiler leak, it mentions the rule of two. What is that?

It's the idea that there can only ever be two Sith, a master and an apprentice. For example, Plageius and Sidious, Sidious and Maul/Dooku/Vader and in his own bastardised version seen in Clone Wars, Maul and Savage Oppress.

Now that doesn't mean you can't have other Dark Side Force Users, just that they are not actually Sith. See Assaj Ventris, Savage Oppress, The Inquisitors ect.

 Paradigm wrote:

 Ratius wrote:
In that spoiler leak, it mentions the rule of two. What is that?

It's the idea that there can only ever be two Sith, a master and an apprentice. For example, Plageius and Sidious, Sidious and Maul/Dooku/Vader and in his own bastardised version seen in Clone Wars, Maul and Savage Oppress.

Now that doesn't mean you can't have other Dark Side Force Users, just that they are not actually Sith. See Assaj Ventris, Savage Oppress, The Inquisitors ect.

Unless there are other rogue Sith Lords who reject the Rule of Two, as the leak suggests.

I prefer this, the idea that there is another actual Sith Lord out there, a peer to Palpatine himself and not just some wannabee Dark Jedi. It raises the stakes considerably.

Yup. Only ever 2 sith.

Although that doesn't stop people strong in the Dark Side from claiming to be Sith. And honestly the real Sith is just whoever beats all the other contenders.

Its not like there is some metaphysical part of the dark side saying "Sorry, no vacancies available right now" when there are 2 Sith lords.

Ok thanks peeps.

Isn't Sith just a title? My understanding that the Sith were a race that used the Dark Side, but that eventually they became extinct and other Dark Siders donned their named. If its only a title then I don't see why the hell not other people won't use it, or apparently the "bad guys" (KotoR II was good for Chris Avellone calling bull on the whole black and white thing) all follow a code that the guy in charge should be called a Sith lord. Ah, I thought the Dark Side was all about power, it seems weird that its followers would sublimate themselves. =P

 Wyrmalla wrote:
Isn't Sith just a title? My understanding that the Sith were a race that used the Dark Side, but that eventually they became extinct and other Dark Siders donned their named. If its only a title then I don't see why the hell not other people won't use it, or apparently the "bad guys" (KotoR II was good for Chris Avellone calling bull on the whole black and white thing) all follow a code that the guy in charge should be called a Sith lord. Ah, I thought the Dark Side was all about power, it seems weird that its followers would sublimate themselves. =P

Yes, the Sith took their name from a race of Force Users. At one point there were lots of them, but they nearly destroyed themselves through backstabbing and intrigue. And so the Rule Of Two was implemented to allow the Sith order to survive in some fashion, as it was decided that without it they would just wipe themselves out sooner or later.

In the EU, it's all become steadily more convoluted, with different Sith groups popping up that refused the Rule of Two, Krayt implementing his 'Rule of One' (One Sith Order, the 'One True Sith'), a group of pre-Rule of Two Sith time travelling from 5000 years in the past to 40-ish years after ANH, and another group of descendants of pre-Rule of Two Sith popping up on an isolated planet where a Sith ship had crashed, also 5000 years ago.


On the whole, it's probably a good thing that Disney decided to dump the EU. It was just getting too messy.

Trying to remember off the top of my head and truncate but I think it was something like this:

There was a disagreement between a group that would become the Jedi

"Jedi" Civil War

Losers leave galaxy and find new home on Sith home world

Sith come back bigger and badder to challenge the Jedi and Republic

Eventually Republic and Jedi win

Rule of Two is instituted as much of the failure comes from infighting when the Republic stood strong

Eventually a Sith works his way into power and eliminates the Republic and Jedi order using one of their own to help.

Son of fallen Jedi stops the Sith plan, sells lots of toys.

It wouldn't surprise me at all that some Sith weren't cool on the idea of the Rule of Two either as they aren't the most cooperative bunch.

 insaniak wrote:

 Wyrmalla wrote:
Isn't Sith just a title? My understanding that the Sith were a race that used the Dark Side, but that eventually they became extinct and other Dark Siders donned their named. If its only a title then I don't see why the hell not other people won't use it, or apparently the "bad guys" (KotoR II was good for Chris Avellone calling bull on the whole black and white thing) all follow a code that the guy in charge should be called a Sith lord. Ah, I thought the Dark Side was all about power, it seems weird that its followers would sublimate themselves. =P

Yes, the Sith took their name from a race of Force Users. At one point there were lots of them, but they nearly destroyed themselves through backstabbing and intrigue. And so the Rule Of Two was implemented to allow the Sith order to survive in some fashion, as it was decided that without it they would just wipe themselves out sooner or later.

In the EU, it's all become steadily more convoluted, with different Sith groups popping up that refused the Rule of Two, Krayt implementing his 'Rule of One' (One Sith Order, the 'One True Sith'), a group of pre-Rule of Two Sith time travelling from 5000 years in the past to 40-ish years after ANH, and another group of descendants of pre-Rule of Two Sith popping up on an isolated planet where a Sith ship had crashed, also 5000 years ago.


On the whole, it's probably a good thing that Disney decided to dump the EU. It was just getting too messy.

To be fair, the "rule of two" is one of the lamest things in all of Star Wars history, right up there with medichlorians, which probably was a factor in why so many authors tried to get around it. It's probably one of the few cases in which the EU muddying the waters a bit actually improved things.

Would have been better if sith had unknown amount of groups. made deals with each other every so often and tried to kill each other or fight each other for dominance every so often.

Kind of like a string of criminal groups who all hate the jedi but will fight each other.

 Hordini wrote:
To be fair, the "rule of two" is one of the lamest things in all of Star Wars history, right up there with medichlorians, which probably was a factor in why so many authors tried to get around it. .

Heh... It is interesting to see how little of the EU material makes any mention at all of midichlorians.

 insaniak wrote:

 Hordini wrote:
To be fair, the "rule of two" is one of the lamest things in all of Star Wars history, right up there with medichlorians, which probably was a factor in why so many authors tried to get around it. .

Heh... It is interesting to see how little of the EU material makes any mention at all of midichlorians.

For all its downsides, the EU did have its advantages. They had to get permission to include or do certain things, such as but they didn't really need to get permission to exclude things.


I'm imagining George Lucas writing about Midichlorians and then the EU authors are all like: