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Let's operate under the assumption that the combined profiles for characters on monstrous mounts unveiled in the End Times carries over to 9th Edition. From what I've been able to gather based on the characters we've seen so far, the rules for stats looks something like this:

-For M, WS, BS, S, T, I, and Ld, the combined profile uses the better of the two between character and mount.
-For A and W, combine the two.

Following that, is there going to be much reason to NOT take lord-level wizards on dragons whenever possible, points aside? Think how disgusting that's going to be. For example, I typically run a Tzeentch Sorceror Lord on Disc as my general. His stats would go from:

_______________M_WS_BS_S_T_I_W_A_Ld
Sorceror Lord 4 5 3 4 4 5 3 3 8
Disc of Tzeentch 1 3 3 4 4 4 1 3 7

To this:

_______________M_WS_BS_S_T_I_W_A_Ld
Sorceror Lord 6 6 3 6 6 5 9 9 8

And then, once you add in magic items and Mutations and Powers, I'm pretty sure no one's going to want to go up against a T6 model with 9 wounds rocking a 3+ ward save that can reroll 1's. But you KNOW it's gonna happen. Am I the only that thinks combined profiles will be bad for the meta?

Combined profiles are GREAT for the game imo. It brings monsters back into the game. Yes that 9 wound monster is going to be very very hard to kill but its not invincable. Also it will lose half the time to static res, units will still be steadfast and cannons still do d6 wounds(should they not be saved)

IIRC Darnok over on Warseer dropped a hint that characters wouldn't be fully customisable in 9th. I imagine that would help keep the broken builds from materialising if proved true

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
Am I the only that thinks combined profiles will be bad for the meta?

Personally I hate this argument in every game, to me it says "This is how the game is & I'm afraid of change because I'm used to / I like it this way." Who says the meta is good for the game? Personally I HATE not being able to field my vamp lord on a zombie dragon because he can just get one shotted turn 1 by a cannon. My 600+ point lord dies to a single 120ish point warmachine because I lost the roll to go first.

I think combined profiles are great, sure the stat lines are beastly but they lose to static combat res and there's still answers in GWs, Cannons & Magic. It opens it up for people to take those big beautiful dragons, gryphons, manticores without making them stupidly OP, it takes them from near useless to usable.

 Shas'O Dorian wrote:

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
Am I the only that thinks combined profiles will be bad for the meta?

Personally I hate this argument in every game, to me it says "This is how the game is & I'm afraid of change because I'm used to / I like it this way." Who says the meta is good for the game? Personally I HATE not being able to field my vamp lord on a zombie dragon because he can just get one shotted turn 1 by a cannon. My 600+ point lord dies to a single 120ish point warmachine because I lost the roll to go first.

I think combined profiles are great, sure the stat lines are beastly but they lose to static combat res and there's still answers in GWs, Cannons & Magic. It opens it up for people to take those big beautiful dragons, gryphons, manticores without making them stupidly OP, it takes them from near useless to usable.

I take two tzeentch dragons with 3++ wards. One rerolls 1s. How is that good?

 namiel wrote:
Combined profiles are GREAT for the game imo. It brings monsters back into the game. Yes that 9 wound monster is going to be very very hard to kill but its not invincable. Also it will lose half the time to static res, units will still be steadfast and cannons still do d6 wounds(should they not be saved)

This.


Also, remember, the global rule will change, followed by the army books. Yes something might be a little bonkers, but temporarily so.


Combined profile is awesome ; its halts at least some of the Rock Paper Cannon for large monster riders nonsense that is currently going on.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 Shas'O Dorian wrote:

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
Am I the only that thinks combined profiles will be bad for the meta?

Personally I hate this argument in every game, to me it says "This is how the game is & I'm afraid of change because I'm used to / I like it this way." Who says the meta is good for the game? Personally I HATE not being able to field my vamp lord on a zombie dragon because he can just get one shotted turn 1 by a cannon. My 600+ point lord dies to a single 120ish point warmachine because I lost the roll to go first.

I think combined profiles are great, sure the stat lines are beastly but they lose to static combat res and there's still answers in GWs, Cannons & Magic. It opens it up for people to take those big beautiful dragons, gryphons, manticores without making them stupidly OP, it takes them from near useless to usable.

I take two tzeentch dragons with 3++ wards. One rerolls 1s. How is that good?

Don't forget Soul Feeder.

MonumentOfRibs wrote:
IIRC Darnok over on Warseer dropped a hint that characters wouldn't be fully customisable in 9th. I imagine that would help keep the broken builds from materialising if proved true

That would do more to hurt the game than combined profiles of Characters/Mounts, in my opinion. Hope its not true!

 Haight wrote:

 namiel wrote:
Combined profiles are GREAT for the game imo. It brings monsters back into the game. Yes that 9 wound monster is going to be very very hard to kill but its not invincable. Also it will lose half the time to static res, units will still be steadfast and cannons still do d6 wounds(should they not be saved)

This.


Also, remember, the global rule will change, followed by the army books. Yes something might be a little bonkers, but temporarily so.


Combined profile is awesome ; its halts at least some of the Rock Paper Cannon for large monster riders nonsense that is currently going on.

Then someone rocks up with a big block of skullcrushers and a tzeentch dragon with the 3++ rerolling 1s and charges the world.

Combined profiles is open for a lot of abuse. And if you play competitively, it imbalances the game far too much. See my previous example as to why.

MonumentOfRibs wrote:
IIRC Darnok over on Warseer dropped a hint that characters wouldn't be fully customisable in 9th. I imagine that would help keep the broken builds from materialising if proved true

Perhaps we might see a return to the 6th ed format whereby you only get 100pts combined between Magic Items/Gifts/Vamp Powers/Virtues/etc...

That would really scale back the power of characters and also make them less customisable than currently, plus it'll give a huge break to Greater Daemons who are going to be hilariously wimpy now compared to monster-mounted Lords in general. (Eternal Beatstick build aside, which is also getting ridiculously boring now anyways...)

I didn't like the idea of it either, The only way I can see it being used decently would be to restrict magic items on monster riding characters. Think BSB magic item restrictions. It would keep the heroes on foot more versatile, and the dragon riding generals could be the beatsticks.

Experiment 626 wrote:

MonumentOfRibs wrote:
IIRC Darnok over on Warseer dropped a hint that characters wouldn't be fully customisable in 9th. I imagine that would help keep the broken builds from materialising if proved true

Perhaps we might see a return to the 6th ed format whereby you only get 100pts combined between Magic Items/Gifts/Vamp Powers/Virtues/etc...

That would really scale back the power of characters and also make them less customisable than currently, plus it'll give a huge break to Greater Daemons who are going to be hilariously wimpy now compared to monster-mounted Lords in general. (Eternal Beatstick build aside, which is also getting ridiculously boring now anyways...)

It would also be terrible. I take 50 points on a BSB. I'm forced to choose between a dispel scroll, or taking a decent level 4.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 Haight wrote:

 namiel wrote:
Combined profiles are GREAT for the game imo. It brings monsters back into the game. Yes that 9 wound monster is going to be very very hard to kill but its not invincable. Also it will lose half the time to static res, units will still be steadfast and cannons still do d6 wounds(should they not be saved)

This.


Also, remember, the global rule will change, followed by the army books. Yes something might be a little bonkers, but temporarily so.


Combined profile is awesome ; its halts at least some of the Rock Paper Cannon for large monster riders nonsense that is currently going on.

Then someone rocks up with a big block of skullcrushers and a tzeentch dragon with the 3++ rerolling 1s and charges the world.

Combined profiles is open for a lot of abuse. And if you play competitively, it imbalances the game far too much. See my previous example as to why.

... so the fix here is to fix the 3++ rerolling, not nerf an entire genre of model classification type. Which, undoubtedly, will happen at army book relase time in 9th ed, as i alluded to.

You don't set fire to the house because the faucet leaks.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
I'm forced to choose between a dispel scroll, or taking a decent level 4.

If the options you have to chose from are all useful then it actually makes the game more interesting. You have to make a choice instead of just loading up on goodies. I like the combined profiles and always thought it was kinda strange to have a completely separate profile for a basic horse but only use a few of the stats. Just give the rider's profile a better save, an attack, and more movement; classify them as cavalry (with all the pros and cons) and be done with it. For mythical mounts add more attacks, flight, breath weapons, wounds, or whatever else is needed to make it feel authentic.

 Haight wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 Haight wrote:

 namiel wrote:
Combined profiles are GREAT for the game imo. It brings monsters back into the game. Yes that 9 wound monster is going to be very very hard to kill but its not invincable. Also it will lose half the time to static res, units will still be steadfast and cannons still do d6 wounds(should they not be saved)

This.


Also, remember, the global rule will change, followed by the army books. Yes something might be a little bonkers, but temporarily so.


Combined profile is awesome ; its halts at least some of the Rock Paper Cannon for large monster riders nonsense that is currently going on.

Then someone rocks up with a big block of skullcrushers and a tzeentch dragon with the 3++ rerolling 1s and charges the world.

Combined profiles is open for a lot of abuse. And if you play competitively, it imbalances the game far too much. See my previous example as to why.

... so the fix here is to fix the 3++ rerolling, not nerf an entire genre of model classification type. Which, undoubtedly, will happen at army book relase time in 9th ed, as i alluded to.

You don't set fire to the house because the faucet leaks.

How does one fix the 3+ rerolling 1s? Or the 1+. Rerollable/4++ nurgle soul feeder dragon? Or the cloack of twilight+obsidian trinket 1+ rerollable dreadlord?

 thedarkavenger wrote:


I take two tzeentch dragons with 3++ wards. One rerolls 1s. How is that good?

At what points level are you playing? Standard here is 2400.

The cheapest Tzeentch Chaos Dragons are 550 pts BARE (6+ ward).

Add 95 pts for 2 4+ wards (Talisman + Armour of destiny) and that's half your points gone you're now at 1195. That doesn't leave room for 3rd eye of tzeentch. I deal with it simply by not having to, because in US standard play it's not legal.

Even if it didn't have the rerolls 1s (making it easier to kill) half your army is now gone and you don't have a wizard yet. you have 600 points in core, which isn't scary. This gives you 600 points across specials & rares of which I'm not too scared.

Each dragon does 5.55555... wounds per combat. and has a static combat res of 0. Each combat assuming they take 0 wounds they win by 1.5555... Chances are I'm steadfast so ok, your 600 point lord can munch troops all day until I clean up the rest of your army & deal with your dragons.


Even in tournaments you're gonna get slaughtered on comp & sportsmanship for bringing that. I know you like to "break the game" but honestly I don't care. If it's truly that broken comp can be adjusted, or in a non tournament game, I can just not play you. If you play that way & others don't want to, they don't have to. I've seen you cry in several posts abut "This will kill warhammer". No it won't it will kill the way YOU play warhammer.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

MonumentOfRibs wrote:
IIRC Darnok over on Warseer dropped a hint that characters wouldn't be fully customisable in 9th. I imagine that would help keep the broken builds from materialising if proved true

Perhaps we might see a return to the 6th ed format whereby you only get 100pts combined between Magic Items/Gifts/Vamp Powers/Virtues/etc...

That would really scale back the power of characters and also make them less customisable than currently, plus it'll give a huge break to Greater Daemons who are going to be hilariously wimpy now compared to monster-mounted Lords in general. (Eternal Beatstick build aside, which is also getting ridiculously boring now anyways...)

It would also be terrible. I take 50 points on a BSB. I'm forced to choose between a dispel scroll, or taking a decent level 4.

Shockingly enough, this is exactly how things worked in 6th edition, and the game didn't go down the toilet or have players screaming bloody murder over how every single character was a useless, steaming turd.

I know you enjoy being able to have characters who can literally come with absolutely everything plus the kitchen sink, but this kind of a change won't destroy the use of characters or turn them into complete rubbish...
So you might have to make some actual honest, hard choices about what you give characters in such a system? Seriously, welcome to a higher form of war gaming - it's called making tough decisions instead of relying on broken combos. Enjoy.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

MonumentOfRibs wrote:
IIRC Darnok over on Warseer dropped a hint that characters wouldn't be fully customisable in 9th. I imagine that would help keep the broken builds from materialising if proved true

Perhaps we might see a return to the 6th ed format whereby you only get 100pts combined between Magic Items/Gifts/Vamp Powers/Virtues/etc...

That would really scale back the power of characters and also make them less customisable than currently, plus it'll give a huge break to Greater Daemons who are going to be hilariously wimpy now compared to monster-mounted Lords in general. (Eternal Beatstick build aside, which is also getting ridiculously boring now anyways...)

It would also be terrible. I take 50 points on a BSB. I'm forced to choose between a dispel scroll, or taking a decent level 4.

Shockingly enough, this is exactly how things worked in 6th edition, and the game didn't go down the toilet or have players screaming bloody murder over how every single character was a useless, steaming turd.

I know you enjoy being able to have characters who can literally come with absolutely everything plus the kitchen sink, but this kind of a change won't destroy the use of characters or turn them into complete rubbish...
So you might have to make some actual honest, hard choices about what you give characters in such a system? Seriously, welcome to a higher form of war gaming - it's called making tough decisions instead of relying on broken combos. Enjoy.

Since when is wanting any form of decent gear and a dispel scroll on an army that is S3 and T3 using broken combos. And taking away the protection of elf characters is what forced me into using Morathi in the first place. Now she's gone, you're basically saying, dark elves can't have a BSB and a level 4 unless the BSB is a cauldron. Because the dispel scroll will always be there.

But then Again, I forget you have no knowledge of how skilled warhammer players think.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

MonumentOfRibs wrote:
IIRC Darnok over on Warseer dropped a hint that characters wouldn't be fully customisable in 9th. I imagine that would help keep the broken builds from materialising if proved true

Perhaps we might see a return to the 6th ed format whereby you only get 100pts combined between Magic Items/Gifts/Vamp Powers/Virtues/etc...

That would really scale back the power of characters and also make them less customisable than currently, plus it'll give a huge break to Greater Daemons who are going to be hilariously wimpy now compared to monster-mounted Lords in general. (Eternal Beatstick build aside, which is also getting ridiculously boring now anyways...)

It would also be terrible. I take 50 points on a BSB. I'm forced to choose between a dispel scroll, or taking a decent level 4.

Shockingly enough, this is exactly how things worked in 6th edition, and the game didn't go down the toilet or have players screaming bloody murder over how every single character was a useless, steaming turd.

I know you enjoy being able to have characters who can literally come with absolutely everything plus the kitchen sink, but this kind of a change won't destroy the use of characters or turn them into complete rubbish...
So you might have to make some actual honest, hard choices about what you give characters in such a system? Seriously, welcome to a higher form of war gaming - it's called making tough decisions instead of relying on broken combos. Enjoy.

Since when is wanting any form of decent gear and a dispel scroll on an army that is S3 and T3 using broken combos. And taking away the protection of elf characters is what forced me into using Morathi in the first place. Now she's gone, you're basically saying, dark elves can't have a BSB and a level 4 unless the BSB is a cauldron. Because the dispel scroll will always be there.

But then Again, I forget you have no knowledge of how skilled warhammer players think.

And here I forgot that according to you, the only people who count as so-called 'skilled players' are the people who agree with just your point of view.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

MonumentOfRibs wrote:
IIRC Darnok over on Warseer dropped a hint that characters wouldn't be fully customisable in 9th. I imagine that would help keep the broken builds from materialising if proved true

Perhaps we might see a return to the 6th ed format whereby you only get 100pts combined between Magic Items/Gifts/Vamp Powers/Virtues/etc...

That would really scale back the power of characters and also make them less customisable than currently, plus it'll give a huge break to Greater Daemons who are going to be hilariously wimpy now compared to monster-mounted Lords in general. (Eternal Beatstick build aside, which is also getting ridiculously boring now anyways...)

It would also be terrible. I take 50 points on a BSB. I'm forced to choose between a dispel scroll, or taking a decent level 4.

Shockingly enough, this is exactly how things worked in 6th edition, and the game didn't go down the toilet or have players screaming bloody murder over how every single character was a useless, steaming turd.

I know you enjoy being able to have characters who can literally come with absolutely everything plus the kitchen sink, but this kind of a change won't destroy the use of characters or turn them into complete rubbish...
So you might have to make some actual honest, hard choices about what you give characters in such a system? Seriously, welcome to a higher form of war gaming - it's called making tough decisions instead of relying on broken combos. Enjoy.

Since when is wanting any form of decent gear and a dispel scroll on an army that is S3 and T3 using broken combos. And taking away the protection of elf characters is what forced me into using Morathi in the first place. Now she's gone, you're basically saying, dark elves can't have a BSB and a level 4 unless the BSB is a cauldron. Because the dispel scroll will always be there.

But then Again, I forget you have no knowledge of how skilled warhammer players think.

And here I forgot that according to you, the only people who count as so-called 'skilled players' are the people who agree with just your point of view.

No. It's people who think rationally rather than whine about the smallest things that don't affect the game.

I think that if combined profiles do occur then we may finally see a real chance to use a Tomb Prince/King on a sphinx.

Blade of Antarak? every wound heals him. If full health, gains regen. That's a 50 point item, so plenty to still add. Kinda waste of MWBD tho.

 Acardia wrote:
I think that if combined profiles do occur then we may finally see a real chance to use a Tomb Prince/King on a sphinx.

Blade of Antarak? every wound heals him. If full health, gains regen. That's a 50 point item, so plenty to still add. Kinda waste of MWBD tho.

Everything so far with the end times has come out with combined profiles. We WILL see combined profiles for the future of whfb. How they do this is a big question though. Will it be combining of statlines or will it be predetermined statlines for each character/mount option. Its not if but when

so if combined does come true that's even more reason for me to take more cannzorgs!!

 Acardia wrote:
I think that if combined profiles do occur then we may finally see a real chance to use a Tomb Prince/King on a sphinx.

Blade of Antarak? every wound heals him. If full health, gains regen. That's a 50 point item, so plenty to still add. Kinda waste of MWBD tho.

Well, mounting him you're trading out possible unit synergies for a better hammer!
If the percentage-based list building stays, then the new 50% each caps mean you'll still have room to take your big stampy monster rider, and still fit in a basic Tomb Prince for the unit-based WS boost. (or else just use Lore of Light if the WS/I boost remains...)

Honestly, I'm kinda hoping that GW does go back to the 6th ed magic item/abilities cap on characters. That would outright 'fix' for example the obnoxious WoC Nurgle Prince build, as now he'll have to fit both his Gifts and Magic Items within a total 100pts, instead of the 100+50 limits he currently enjoys. Same deal for the likes of Vampires, no more having your cake & ice cream, plus every added flavour topping and eating it too. It would also mean that 'standard' characters won't be so badly outclassed anymore by the 'exception' characters who get the extra toys.
Hell, Brets are still operating under the old school system and their characters aren't exactly hurting or somehow ineffective.

Either that or perhaps the rumored 'less customisable characters' might perhaps mean a reduction in the overall Magic Item pool?
Currently each army with the exception of DoC & Dwarfs have a pool of around 100+ or so items to choose from. If the BRB gets scaled back to even half of that, plus the army books keep only 8-12 or so, that will help to keep characters toned down and on the whole, less customisable than they currently are.

I have a vague idea in my head that they'll just limit the number of magic items characters can take. eg. 1 per hero, 2 per lord.

Experiment 626 wrote:
the 100+50 limits he currently enjoys.

Was this changed? My WoC armybook says 100pts of mutations & 25 pts of items. I checked the black library FaQ but it doesn't mention it.

 Micky wrote:
I have a vague idea in my head that they'll just limit the number of magic items characters can take. eg. 1 per hero, 2 per lord.

This used to be the case lords took 4, heroes 2. Even old ikit klaw had two assigned magic items could pick 2. He also was lvl 3 loremaster of any basic lore. Herohammer in full effect.

 Shas'O Dorian wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
the 100+50 limits he currently enjoys.

Was this changed? My WoC armybook says 100pts of mutations & 25 pts of items. I checked the black library FaQ but it doesn't mention it.

Nope, my bad... I was thinking DP limits and instead put down the Chaos Lord limits.

Still, rolling back from 125pts total pts to only 100, and/or going back to 5th edition hardcaps on the number of items allowed would really neuter the crazier/stronger combos.

Anything that promotes taking ridden centre-piece worthy monsters into the game is a good idea. I started back in 5th during the age of HeroHammer. Whilst I don't want it to return to that level of brokenness, I do despair when I can't take a dragon or manticore because it will get cannoned off the board turn 1.

Either they need to tone down artillery's strength, return/increase randomness/guessing to artillery, or buff ridden monsters with these combined profile rules.

 iLLiTHiD wrote:
Anything that promotes taking ridden centre-piece worthy monsters into the game is a good idea. I started back in 5th during the age of HeroHammer. Whilst I don't want it to return to that level of brokenness, I do despair when I can't take a dragon or manticore because it will get cannoned off the board turn 1.

Either they need to tone down artillery's strength, return/increase randomness/guessing to artillery, or buff ridden monsters with these combined profile rules.

Personally I'd love to see GW do the following;

1. Cap Ward Saves at 4++ in general.
Fantasy simply does not have the massive volume of firepower or fistfuls of close combat attacks that 40k has. Getting through a 3++ or god forbid, a 2++ is just a huge PITA, to the point of being all but impossible. (look at what the stupid 'I-win' Banner does to DoC!)
One-shot 2++ saves such as the Golden Crown, or else a very specific 2++ save such as items like the Dragonbane Gem are fine, as is the idea of Magic Res buffing an existing ward save, since there's ways around those items. (ie: don't send your burny attack dudes to fight those Dragon Princes!) But outright strait-up 3++ or better saves vs. all forms of damage bar the instant-kill spells is simply too good. (especially since two of the armies capable of getting a 3++ or better happily ignore both the Initiative based kill-spells...)
Imagine for an instant the dreaded Chaos Dragon with the Tzeentch Lord sporting his 3++ re-roll 1's... even cannons, the natural hard counter to this guy are rendered an almost non-factor!

A 50/50 shot at avoiding the cannonball, (or whatever else!), is still solid protection.

2. Large Targets only suffer D3 wounds vs. cannons.
You wouldn't have to change the way cannons in general work, but the big, points-heavy monsters would now be only half a vulnerable to them. (and lucky one-shotting is removed entirely!)
Perhaps cannons could keep a special rule such as a roll of a 6 to-wound = full D6 damage, to represent the crew lucking out and hitting a vital spot?!