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 FlingitNow wrote:
I get what it's for but you need 3 miscasts to kill him and they are much rarer in ET magic.

Not necessarily, I've miscast 5 times in a row, playing morathi today. Luckily, I rolled a 7 for all of those.

So I'm guessing you didn't just 1 dice Power of Darkness until you have a bajillion dice. Then 1 Spirit leech until all your opponents characters are dead, then 1 dice miasma until a few units or I1 then Purple Sun the lot. Then start soulblighting and Doombolting.

 FlingitNow wrote:
So I'm guessing you didn't just 1 dice Power of Darkness until you have a bajillion dice. Then 1 Spirit leech until all your opponents characters are dead, then 1 dice miasma until a few units or I1 then Purple Sun the lot. Then start soulblighting and Doombolting.

I got S7 warlocks from power of darkness. And purple sun-d and black horror-d a unit of black orcs and grim gor off the board in a single phase.

Turns out warlocks just got infinitely better. And that goblin end times spell is hilarious when cast on Morathi who is in position to destroy a unit of goblins with a charge.

You see I don't rate Warlocks any more. Why cast a Dark/Death Spell with +2 to cast when you can cast it with a +5-8 to cast. But then I'm using Morathi so that probably biases me. Without Morathi I can see they're good but lvl2s worry me. I plan on running 2 lvl4s everytime with ET magic now. Makes sense for casting and dispelling.

 FlingitNow wrote:
You see I don't rate Warlocks any more. Why cast a Dark/Death Spell with +2 to cast when you can cast it with a +5-8 to cast. But then I'm using Morathi so that probably biases me. Without Morathi I can see they're good but lvl2s worry me. I plan on running 2 lvl4s everytime with ET magic now. Makes sense for casting and dispelling.

I use Morathi AND Warlocks.

My local GW is running a 1200 end times campaign league type thing. I'm running Morathi, BSB on foot with a 1+ rerollable. Two units of Riders. A unit of shards. Hydra(Literally have no idea why), And 5 warlocks.

The warlocks are still one of the best choices in the book. My lists often start in the rare section with a unit of those. Morathi is better at casting, but is more vulnerable to miscasting. Plus she isn't a 5+ wound caster who is IMMUNE to blowing up. They're both good, but saying warlocks aren't worth it because Morathi is a thing is just bad.

They both do different things. I often find that I use my warlocks as chaff in the late game. Unless they're a deathstar unit.

If you're chucking 1 dice at a Spell Morathi is also immune to blowing up. I rarely use more than 2 dice on a spell these days anyway so I never use Warlocks to cast anymore. Hence I've dropped them. I used to use Warlocks to cast a lot due to miscast immunity (I'd almost never Doombolt with Morathi) but now that I 90% of the time am 1 dicing, Miasma, Soulblight, Power of Darkness, Spirit Leech etc I see no need for Warlocks as I just force my opponent to chew through dice. Purple Sunning Elves who you've made I1-2 is Hilarious. So the only time I'm throw 3+ dice is when I'm going for a big spell which is when I'd use Morathi anyway to ensure it can happen even if I roll a 2-3 for dice limit.

Only wizards are limited to a D6 dispel dice. isn't it?

 FlingitNow wrote:
If you're chucking 1 dice at a Spell Morathi is also immune to blowing up. I rarely use more than 2 dice on a spell these days anyway so I never use Warlocks to cast anymore. Hence I've dropped them. I used to use Warlocks to cast a lot due to miscast immunity (I'd almost never Doombolt with Morathi) but now that I 90% of the time am 1 dicing, Miasma, Soulblight, Power of Darkness, Spirit Leech etc I see no need for Warlocks as I just force my opponent to chew through dice. Purple Sunning Elves who you've made I1-2 is Hilarious. So the only time I'm throw 3+ dice is when I'm going for a big spell which is when I'd use Morathi anyway to ensure it can happen even if I roll a 2-3 for dice limit.

Then you also incur more chances to have Morathi stop being able to cast that spell. One dicing death and shadow limits you to half the lore. And not the useful half.

And doombolt is a bad spell for warlocks. You're relying on committing a lot of dice for the basic version.

Another thing about Morathi is that you will run out of spells you can cast with her each phase unless you roll 4+ dice or the 3 on the extra d3 dice.

sauhwq wrote:
Only wizards are limited to a D6 dispel dice. isn't it?

RaW yes but as the rule is simply written as a bullet point I doubt you'll find many that play it that a wizard is significantly worse at dispelling than not having a wizard and the D6 is for all dispell attempts. You know GW and wording.

I played against my mate last night and he had something that allowed his darkshards to fire in 3 ranks giving him 60 shots a turn from them... can't remember what it was...



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He also dropped hog on it

Martial Prowess is now a standard rule for Elves allows them to fight and shoot in an extra rank (and another extra if near Malekith).

 FlingitNow wrote:
Martial Prowess is now a standard rule for Elves allows them to fight and shoot in an extra rank (and another extra if near Malekith).

That is still a waste of shots. With the fragility of the elves shooting, I'd rather not overinvest in a unit that can kill a maximum of one unit per phase.

It absolutely flattened me, was the main reason I lost the game especially when he got hand of glory off aswell.
Also the unit is not that many points.

BAN wrote:
It absolutely flattened me, was the main reason I lost the game especially when he got hand of glory off aswell.
Also the unit is not that many points.

So you had an army that had one major threat, that was also vulnerable to S3, armour piercing shooting? If that's the case, then I'd love to say it was all about the tactics, but that would be a lie.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Martial Prowess is now a standard rule for Elves allows them to fight and shoot in an extra rank (and another extra if near Malekith).

It's standard if you're fielding them as part of the Host of the Phoenix King or Host of the Eternity King.
If you're fielding them as part of Host of the Aestyrion, they retain their Murderous Prowess.

Make sure you read pages 20-23 in regards to who gets what. The alterations to who has what is intended solely for the "Elven Host" lists from End Times: Khaine, with the army books being unchanged.

I have read the rules. I was simplifying to answer the question. I know only the "Good" Elves get Martial Prowess.

 namiel wrote:
You have your bsb on a cauldron of blood? First thing im doing is pointing a cannon at it and getting myself 425vp

It has a 4++ ward.

So assuming you hit and nothing stupid happens with artillery:

You fail to wound 17.4% of the time (roll of 1).

Let's assume you wound, because you probably will.

50% of those times, you fail to do a damn thing as the cauldron itself has a 4 up ward.

83% of those times remaining, you fail to do all its wounds in your cannon shot.


It is no way near as simple as "i point a cannon and i getz me 425 points."


Now what i would do is run a high elf baby mage running high magic in the cauldron unit ; cast apotheosis and / or hand of glory (easy casts, little to no threat to opponent, so he'll likely let them cruise through) to make the cauldron a 3++, Hag 3++ and whatever the cauldron is with get either a 3 ++ if its khainite stuff, or 4++ if its literally anything else that the cauldron can join.

And not to mention if you fail to solitaire the cauldron, he has life magic to just bring those wounds right back.

The point is this is no way near as simple as you are making it most of the time.


EDIT: whoops, you said 425, not 465. My bad. Fixt.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BAN wrote:
I played against my mate last night and he had something that allowed his darkshards to fire in 3 ranks giving him 60 shots a turn from them... can't remember what it was...



Automatically Appended Next Post:
He also dropped hog on it

Was probably playing Host of the Eternity King which gives all elves with murderous prowess also martial prowess, and vice versa (yep, its dirty).

 Haight wrote:

 namiel wrote:
You have your bsb on a cauldron of blood? First thing im doing is pointing a cannon at it and getting myself 425vp

It has a 4++ ward.

So assuming you hit and nothing stupid happens with artillery:

You fail to wound 17.4% of the time (roll of 1).

Let's assume you wound, because you probably will.

50% of those times, you fail to do a damn thing as the cauldron itself has a 4 up ward.

83% of those times remaining, you fail to do all its wounds in your cannon shot.


It is no way near as simple as "i point a cannon and i getz me 425 points."


Now what i would do is run a high elf baby mage running high magic in the cauldron unit ; cast apotheosis and / or hand of glory (easy casts, little to no threat to opponent, so he'll likely let them cruise through) to make the cauldron a 3++, Hag 3++ and whatever the cauldron is with get either a 3 ++ if its khainite stuff, or 4++ if its literally anything else that the cauldron can join.

And not to mention if you fail to solitaire the cauldron, he has life magic to just bring those wounds right back.

The point is this is no way near as simple as you are making it most of the time.


EDIT: whoops, you said 425, not 465. My bad. Fixt.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BAN wrote:
I played against my mate last night and he had something that allowed his darkshards to fire in 3 ranks giving him 60 shots a turn from them... can't remember what it was...



Automatically Appended Next Post:
He also dropped hog on it

Was probably playing Host of the Eternity King which gives all elves with murderous prowess also martial prowess, and vice versa (yep, its dirty).

My cauldron won't be in a unit. It'll go within 6" of my glade guard, and, if I can, bolt throwers. Sideways, of course.

 thedarkavenger wrote:


My cauldron won't be in a unit. It'll go within 6" of my glade guard, and, if I can, bolt throwers. Sideways, of course.

Do the cauldron's rules benefit the bolt throwers? IIRC, the bolt throwers themselves do not have murderous prowess, just the crew. So unless you are fielding "Elf Throwers" I don't see you rerolling those wounds.

kooshlord wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:


My cauldron won't be in a unit. It'll go within 6" of my glade guard, and, if I can, bolt throwers. Sideways, of course.

Do the cauldron's rules benefit the bolt throwers? IIRC, the bolt throwers themselves do not have murderous prowess, just the crew. So unless you are fielding "Elf Throwers" I don't see you rerolling those wounds.

Cauldron states that the if the model has muse toys prowess, it's buff kicks in. A bolt thrower is a single model for shooting purposes.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

kooshlord wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:


My cauldron won't be in a unit. It'll go within 6" of my glade guard, and, if I can, bolt throwers. Sideways, of course.

Do the cauldron's rules benefit the bolt throwers? IIRC, the bolt throwers themselves do not have murderous prowess, just the crew. So unless you are fielding "Elf Throwers" I don't see you rerolling those wounds.

Cauldron states that the if the model has muse toys prowess, it's buff kicks in. A bolt thrower is a single model for shooting purposes.

Gonna hafta reread my war machine runes. My understanding was war machine crew have no impact except:
1) contribute BS to bolt thrower
2) wound counters
3) in close combat

So their "Muse Toys Prowess" wouldn't be applied to the str of the bolt thrower.

kooshlord wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

kooshlord wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:


My cauldron won't be in a unit. It'll go within 6" of my glade guard, and, if I can, bolt throwers. Sideways, of course.

Do the cauldron's rules benefit the bolt throwers? IIRC, the bolt throwers themselves do not have murderous prowess, just the crew. So unless you are fielding "Elf Throwers" I don't see you rerolling those wounds.

Cauldron states that the if the model has muse toys prowess, it's buff kicks in. A bolt thrower is a single model for shooting purposes.

Gonna hafta reread my war machine runes. My understanding was war machine crew have no impact except:
1) contribute BS to bolt thrower
2) wound counters
3) in close combat

So their "Muse Toys Prowess" wouldn't be applied to the str of the bolt thrower.

The rule isn't crew only. There is nothing that says the rule only applies to the crew.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Getting closer to a final draft of the shooty list.

Supreme Sorceress: Dispel Scroll; Talisman of Preservation; Level 4 Wizard; Lore of Heavens; Dark Pegasus 340
Dreadlord: Dawnstone; The Other Trickster's Shard; Cloak of Twilight; heavy armour; lance; shield; Sea Dragon cloak 254

Death Hag: Battle Standard 110
• Cauldron of Blood 190

10 Glade Guard: trueflight arrows; musician; standard bearer 170
10 Darkshards: musician; standard bearer 140
10 Darkshards: musician; standard bearer 140
5 Dark Riders: shields; repeater crossbows; musician; standard bearer 120
5 Dark Riders: shields; repeater crossbows; musician; standard bearer 120

Reaper Bolt Thrower 70
Reaper Bolt Thrower 70
Reaper Bolt Thrower 70
Reaper Bolt Thrower 70

5 Doomfire Warlocks 125
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower 70
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower 70
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower 70
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower 70
5 Doomfire Warlocks 125

2,394 points

 thedarkavenger wrote:

The rule isn't crew only. There is nothing that says the rule only applies to the crew.

First off, my apologies for the thread derailment for something probably better suited to a YMDC thread. But it is relevant to my army list comments below.

My DE book says:

Reaper Bolt Thrower
Special Rules (Crew):
- Always Strikes First
- Hatred (High Elves)
- Murderous Prowess

Special Rules (Reaper Bolt Thrower):
- Repeater Bolt Thrower

(Edit) HE bolt throwers follor the same pattern with martial prowess (/edit)

The Cauldron has the special rule: Strength of Khaine, which grants rerolls to "Friendly models with the Murderous Prowess Special Rule..."

The warmachine rules are a little vague on whether the whole thing is one model or not, but there is a section under The Crew talking about removing a 'crew model' when the war machine suffers a wound.

So while your glade guard, darkshards and dark riders certainly gain shooting rerolls from the Cauldron, I don't think your bolt throwers do.

If true, this means you are spending 190 points to upgrade 450 points of infantry with str 3 weapons in a fashion that restricts their deployment options. Might you be better off spending some of those points on some hagbane glade guard to tackle the stuff above T3?


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And/Or adding some sisters (EDIT) Of Avelorn (/Edit) to take further advantage of the cauldron?


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Or heck, some waywatchers or something?

 thedarkavenger wrote:

kooshlord wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

kooshlord wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:


My cauldron won't be in a unit. It'll go within 6" of my glade guard, and, if I can, bolt throwers. Sideways, of course.

Do the cauldron's rules benefit the bolt throwers? IIRC, the bolt throwers themselves do not have murderous prowess, just the crew. So unless you are fielding "Elf Throwers" I don't see you rerolling those wounds.

Cauldron states that the if the model has muse toys prowess, it's buff kicks in. A bolt thrower is a single model for shooting purposes.

Gonna hafta reread my war machine runes. My understanding was war machine crew have no impact except:
1) contribute BS to bolt thrower
2) wound counters
3) in close combat

So their "Muse Toys Prowess" wouldn't be applied to the str of the bolt thrower.

The rule isn't crew only. There is nothing that says the rule only applies to the crew.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Getting closer to a final draft of the shooty list.

Supreme Sorceress: Dispel Scroll; Talisman of Preservation; Level 4 Wizard; Lore of Heavens; Dark Pegasus 340
Dreadlord: Dawnstone; The Other Trickster's Shard; Cloak of Twilight; heavy armour; lance; shield; Sea Dragon cloak 254

Death Hag: Battle Standard 110
• Cauldron of Blood 190

10 Glade Guard: trueflight arrows; musician; standard bearer 170
10 Darkshards: musician; standard bearer 140
10 Darkshards: musician; standard bearer 140
5 Dark Riders: shields; repeater crossbows; musician; standard bearer 120
5 Dark Riders: shields; repeater crossbows; musician; standard bearer 120

Reaper Bolt Thrower 70
Reaper Bolt Thrower 70
Reaper Bolt Thrower 70
Reaper Bolt Thrower 70

5 Doomfire Warlocks 125
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower 70
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower 70
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower 70
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower 70
5 Doomfire Warlocks 125

2,394 points

Too many bolt throwers you can only have three reapers and two eagle claws.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Dreadlord: Dawnstone; The Other Trickster's Shard; Cloak of Twilight; heavy armour; lance; shield; Sea Dragon cloak 254

I'm assuming this dude has a peggy to go with his Cloak? Cloak and the OTS are both enchanted, no? Dropping it, you've got 35 points you could spend on gear. You could drop the shield, give yourself a charmed shield or dragonhelm, or maybe glittering scales if they are cheap enough?