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i play orks, the most common Armour upgrade we have is the 'evy armor at 4pts per model. i have toyed with the idea of upgrading boyz with it in the hopes of making them more survivable.
my question to you guys is, "are there enough common ap4 weapons out their (amoungst your armies) that make the use of 4up worthless?"

For the most part, it jumps from AP5 to AP 3. There are certainly some out there, but you'll largely still be worrying about stuff people took to mow down marines.

My Gauss Immortals would laugh, mind you. I almost always play against marine variant armies, so actually getting the most out of my S5 AP4 rapid fire unit would be very satisfying.

I'm shying away from 'eavy...it seemed pretty shiny at first to have all da boyz sportin' some iron plates, but the cost is just so dang high.

The best use of 'eavy is on trukk boyz to reduce the silliness of mob rule. On a squad of 20, dropping the armor buys you most of a battlewagon, which protects them and moves them 18 inches on turn 1...IMHO a way better deal.

Depends on the unit. I find it very useful for truckboyz. And wagonboyz can benefit from it sometimes. But it's usually not worth it for footsloggas. They're much more likely to face ap4 as they lack ability to hide and are generally in the centre of the map taking whatever the enemy throws in your direction.
4+ armor helps vs explosions and mob rule not telling bout the shots. And it's easier to win combats to sweep someone with 'eavy armored boyz which is especially useful for truckboyz.

Personally, i run a squad of 'ard boyz in a truck with my footslogging list. They're a variation of MANz missile with their own benefits and drawbacks. So far, they've performed good in every game i've played. And actually won me a few.

I find them much better than barebones guyz - especially since i have just one truck, so they must have some sort of staying power.

I think the 'ard boy upgrade will be used most effectively in the following ways.

1. Ability to not be wiped out when the transport they are in is blown up
2. ability to survive close combat with rank and file enemies.

and then lastly will it grant any benefit in shooting. The big thing with the armor is just to make sure your exploding trukk doesn't wipe out half the squad. And then when you get in to close combat with some marines you actually stand a chance of retaining a large portion of your army.

I also think this is most useful with small squads, as 30-large squads will survive based on sheer numbers, whereas a 10-man squad needs that extra resiliency.

In general terms it depends on the unit. While AP4 weapons are fairly common, AP5 weapons are even more common. At least having a 4+ save actually gives you an armour save against most armies' basic assault rifles.

In relation to Orks, I second what koooaei said. What you really need as an Ork player is for enough Boyz to make it into combat so that they can overwhelm the enemy with attacks. For footsloggers, having more boyz to absorb fire is more points efficient. In a trukk list, this isn't really an option because you have to think about space inside the vehicle, not just optimal points efficiency. That being said, mob rule can really take its toll now, so maybe it's worth giving massed 'eavy armour a whirl.

For battlewagon boyz, I probably wouldn't bother with 'eavy armour. The reason is that you should really have several wagons full of boyz, and pressuring your opponent to split his fire between more transports than he can realistically deal with will save more boyz than giving them all armour, which will get expensive quickly (80 points on a squad of 20 boyz - another 30 would get you another wagon). Having said that, I have one lot with a warboss and da lukky stikk, so I may get another wagonful with 'eavy armour just to spread my strength around a bit.

That being said, I take a full-sized unit of Nobz in one of my wagons, together with 'eavy armour and a painboy. They laugh at all but the most severe small arms fire before they smash stuff. So I would say nobz are worth tooling up.

As a marine player I tend to get AP4 in two different sources. A lot of the mid-strength fire often used for striping HPs (ACs, AsC, skyhammer missiles) is AP4. I’d rather not be shooting that at boys, but rather at trucks and the like.

On the flip side, you have WWs, HBs, HFs, and kracken ammo from the sternguard. These want to be shooting troops and don’t care about a 4+ save.

What do your local marine players pack? A lot of the AP4 stuff gets left in the armory as we gear up to take down other MEQ armies. Sure, we have a lot of tools that can cash xenos in rolls, but if everyone is gearing up with melta and plasma/grav guns, who cares what a 4xHB dev squad can do to you? You might never see it on the table.

As was mentioned, the 4+ does keep the basic flamers and bolters off.

im liking what im hearing. i play a lot with truckboyz (ive almost sworn off footsloggers and greentides due to some bad experience with blast templates). i always got turned off by 'evy, jut because my tau and imp guard players always said that ap4 and stronger were just too common, ill have to test their opinions now.

i havent played many marines, i had an experience with dark Templar (but i was running dredd mob), and the only other marines i fought was grey knights with plenty of torrent flamers.

thanks for the comments.

I often use Tyranid Warriors with their 4+ save, and find it to be fantastic in most cases. I get to use it more often than not, fwiw.

Whenever I consider a 4+ for orks or my guardsmen; I always think to myself . . . why am I paying points for what I will probably just swap out for a cover save?

And then I end up buying transports, for more scoring units.

Playing an army that includes models with 6+, 5+ and 4+, I do have to say there is a distinct difference in the surviability of the 4+ over a 5+ or 6+. Not only are the odds more favourable on the save itself, but being able to take the save against the standard weapons of most infantry models is a huge advantage.

Now is it enough to justify paying an extra 4 points er boy when you can use the same points to just buy more boys and get more wounds and more shots? I think that requires some advanced analysis, or some table top experience. So if you arne't a great statistician, try running it with armour for a few games and without armour a few games and decide which worked better for you.

I started 40k as an ork player in 5th ed. I have a huge collection that is still growing. I am an ork always will be.

2 things you never do:
Never take trukk boyz without 'evy armor
Never take foot boyz with 'evy armor

For the cost of 20 'ard boyz you can take 33 boyz.
The extra bodies are a much better investment.

I've done it both ways, with 'Eavy Armor and without. Not sure if the armor is worth the potential boys it costs. Heres why.

I just put together a 1,000 point force to go against Tau and I decided to forgo armor in favor of numbers and trukks. Hoping that five trukks and a force of 30 footsloggers + 10 Gretchins (at worst a 5+ cover save for other models) will be overwhelming and get me into melee with the Tau (their weak point).

Now, the formation I can use with this many orks gives me the Waaagh! every turn after the 1st so I wont be worried about saving it for the "right" moment. I will have the trukks move flat out to close distance while having the sloggers, well, slog and be the second wave slamming into whatever survives the first wave from the trukks.

Now I fully expect to lose at least 2 of the trukks meaning 36 sluggas charging under a Waaagh! on turn 2. With 24 inches covered on round 1 and a 6 inches from the trukk + 6 inches of running +1d6 (rerollable for call it a 4 average) on the run + 2d6 (rerollable for call it an average of 9) on the charge +2 (for the boarding plank, better than a red paint job and cheep at twice the price) on round two I should be able to go a total of 51 inches. If I start at the edge of the deployment zone (60 inches from the opposite edge) I should be able to hit any unit I want within 10 inches of the opponent's table edge. Not bad at all.

I think I will be the Taus worst nightmare. Orks in their lines on round 2. Now had I tried to armor up the sluggas in trukks that would be 47 boys at 4 points each. 188 total. I'd have to give up all but one of my trukks and it would take at least 3 turns to cross the distance giving the Tau that much more time to blast my boys to bits and the 4+ armor save would have to work 3 times to do the same effect.

armor saves mean nothing anymore. its totally irrelevant how good of a save you have. a terminator marine could have a 6+ armor and it would mean nothing. they would die just as quick because theres so many ap2, or rending weapons out there that it wouldnt matter. they would die just as quick. more wounds is superior to better saves so imo no its not worth it. however providing a diversity of saves would be good any way of giving them an invul or a FNP would be benefitial. cover saves via stealth/shrouded are less important but they would be nice if their higher than your native armor save anyway. im noticing less ignores cover out there these days but it would need to get above your base save fairly regularly

It is true, the amount of low AP weapons out there in some meta's really negate the obvious benefit of a 4+ armour save. Even more so because those units that can upgrade to a 4+ armour save are usually perceived as your armies most dangerous units. i.e. IG Vets, or Nobz, etc So will draw heavier low AP fire.

However, I use the 4+ save on my Plasma Vets not to make them last longer on the battlefield, but primarily to mitigate the Gets Hot rule and exploding transports. If they get shot at and get an armour save, that's a good bonus.

I am starting an Ork army, and have been looking at the same principle. Boyz in a truck get evy' armour. And maybe a small squad of Nobz, because they look tougher, and you guessed it, they'll be in a truck.

Don't forget that if a truck gets wrecked, you can effectively hide behind it. Means you don't need to stand there in the open and eat up all that ap4 stuff.

While 4+ armor is especially helpful in mellee.

And it's quite unbelievable that the opponent is fully geared with ap2 and rending everywhere and every time.
Eldar? Wave serpents don't go through 4+. Regular rending shots will deal 1-2 ap2 wounds, other stuff doesn't go through 4+. Sunkannons shooting 10 pt boyz? Good for you.
Tau? 4+ missiles do go through your armor but the main killer are seeker missiles and pulse rifles that don't. If a riptide's shooting his guns at 10 pt boyz - good for you.
Space marines? Yep, grav guns wound you on a 4+ instead of 6+ but bolters don't pass 4+ armor, so it's a tradeoff. Besides, you can now hold mellee hits 2 times better. And a 'eavy armored PK nob can be much safer vs sergeants since none of them usually take any special weaponry.

Where are you getting all that AP2 EVERYWHERE stuff?

I've fielded a 30 'ard shoota boyz squad with rokkits, pk nob and painboy against a DE. It was expensive but damn it could take a beating. I'll try it again sometime.

But then I thought: 11 pts for a T4 4+ infantry with an asault 2 S4 AP6 gun, or 18 pts for a T5 4+ jinking warbiker with a TL assault 3 S5 AP5 gun? Hmmm...

 koooaei wrote:
Don't forget that if a truck gets wrecked, you can effectively hide behind it. Means you don't need to stand there in the open and eat up all that ap4 stuff.

While 4+ armor is especially helpful in mellee.


Where are you getting all that AP2 EVERYWHERE stuff?

Just the two points I wanted to directly address.

Good pointing out the benefit in close combat. There are a lot less AP weapons floating around there.

I do have a Astra Militarum 1500pts list that I call Extermination Patrol. It has no less than 19 AP2 or AP 1 shooting weapons, and since we're talking about Armour Saves of 4+ , there is also 10 shooting wpns with AP4. I'm not going to bother trying to figure out how many possible saves could be forced thought, that's too much work.

So... I guess if you were facing off against the the Extermination Patrol. A 4+ save wouldn't be worth much.

In this specific case, yep, it's better to run an extra truck.

But also don't forget. If a truck gets exploded - you have more chances to avoid this extra ld check for 25% casualties. While you'll almost guaranteerly have to pass it with 6+ armored boyz.

As for the ap2 weapons - once again, 'ard boyz don't cost like termies. They cost just 10 ppm. Making ap2 shooting still not too effective. Means, you'd be better off without armor vs shooting in this case. But you don't loose much even with it while still have the secondary benefits of 4+ for mob rule/explosions/mellee/non-ap4+

And I think you've hit the nail on the head Koooaie.

A 4+ save is good for close combat, as it gives you much higher staying power. And as a means to mitigate battlefield mishaps.

i see many good points evrywhere, i will most likely stick to ard boyz in trucks, and maybe for foot sloggers as well (depends on the enemy i face). but i have never had good luck with large blobs of boyz, they always die on me (and most of the time it was from ap4 blast and template weapons. i think i will just put all my boyz in trucks with eavy armor.

Agreed. The most cost-effective durability upgrade for an ork boy is...another ork boy stood in front of him.

It costs little more than the eavy armour, doesn't care about AP values, and actually adds to the unit's combat potential if by some miracle he makes it across the board.

The time to be reaching for eavy armour is where you can't add more boyz - becuase you've got to fit in a transport, or because you're an attached independent character who might get picked out by a challenge.

Because armour is bought per model, but a painboy is bought once, if you want to up the toughness of a large mob, that's when I'd reach for Feel No Pain.

On my guardsmen, I've found 4+ armour to be hit and miss.

Often, I find myself against a list like GKs, with Dreadknights that can just delete entire squads with S6 AP4 Incinerators and S7 AP4 Heavy Psycannons, or Tau with their seemingly endless AP4 (or better) weapons - many of which also ignore cover and even LoS.

Similarly, I find Veterans just melt in combat even with 4+ saves, so no help their either.

However, they are useful against a lot of basic weapons and small-arms - giving me twice the survival rate against such weapons. I usually do take them on my Veterans, since (unlike infantry squads) they can't rely on numbers to protect them.

Saying that, I might well try going without them in my next list and see if I notice the difference. I'm thinking that I might be better off just trying to get cover saves against basic weapons (obviously many weapons ignore cover - but most of them are AP4 anyway).

SpookyRuben wrote:

I do have a Astra Militarum 1500pts list that I call Extermination Patrol. It has no less than 19 AP2 or AP 1 shooting weapons, and since we're talking about Armour Saves of 4+ , there is also 10 shooting wpns with AP4. I'm not going to bother trying to figure out how many possible saves could be forced thought, that's too much work.

What's the list?

The weapons which ignore los are usually this annoying s5 missiles. But they're ap5.

Not worth it. You could get a lot more boyz for the cost of giving your guys Evy Armor.

I now regularly run at least one unit of 'ard boys in a battlewagon with a powerklaw bosspole nob and a painboy.

their ability to withstand firepower is staggering. i usually lose about 1 boy to an explodes result out of 20, wheras it's closer to 10 with the T-shirt saves.

In combat, if you pick your opponent (so don't charge the unit with power weapons with the one unit in your army who cares to keep their saves) they do survive a helluvalot.

add in a KFF megamek with the lukky stikk and a plank to the wagon for a deathstar, with a 2+ rerollable save for squishy challengers and a PK nob for any AP2 challengers. 2 powerklaws, FnP, and a whole lot of 4+ saves on T4 is a beast to clear out. yes there are counters to it, so you might come up against an army with loads of AP4, but stick the mek at the front and you've got a 2+ rerollable all the way to combat.

 vipoid wrote:
On my guardsmen, I've found 4+ armour to be hit and miss.

Often, I find myself against a list like GKs, with Dreadknights that can just delete entire squads with S6 AP4 Incinerators and S7 AP4 Heavy Psycannons, or Tau with their seemingly endless AP4 (or better) weapons - many of which also ignore cover and even LoS.

Similarly, I find Veterans just melt in combat even with 4+ saves, so no help their either.

Yeah, played against my IG friend a few weeks ago with an incinerator heavy gk army. He was very upset about his decision to pay for 4+ saves for all his vets. It didn't go well.

4+ is the most expensive save in the game, when you factor everything together.

This is because everyone weapon which is supposed to have any kind of armor piercing power (heavy bolters, auto-cannons, deff-guns, yadda yadda) but also not supposed to be in the technologically impressive camp (plasma, melta, fusion, ect) has at least ap4. It's very common. This is made even worse for people that have 4+ saves due to the fact that these guns tend to have a high volume of shots - so they'll easily punch through your armor whilst putting lots of rounds down field.

At the end of the day, for 24 points, you can either give 6 boyz 'Eavy armor, or just pick up four more boyz. Even if all six of those orks are allowed to use their saving throw (they wont be), that's only 3 orks saved - 3 orks saved vs just having four more bodies on the field. So you lose in the long run even in ideal circumstances.

TL-DR: 'Eavy armor is only good for trukk boyz (for when the trukk inevitably explodes) and to a lesser extent Battle Wagon boyz for the same reason.

EDIT:

 some bloke wrote:


their ability to withstand firepower is staggering. i usually lose about 1 boy to an explodes result out of 20, wheras it's closer to 10 with the T-shirt saves.

.

I just want to point out that this is entirely perception / luck of the draw, not actually the way things work. T-shirt saves one in six wounds you can actually take a save for, armor saves three out of six. So in BW explosion that nets you 10 wounds on the you're going to save five ladz, as opposed to merely 1.5. It makes a difference, but the kind of results you're speaking are purely luck of the draw / perception based.

A good army kills marines. That means they kill armor 3+. Your 4+ armor is useless. It might be better to get more bodies instead of better armor. Orks are the best at horde. More bodies, more guns, more attacks, more wounds.

I've been thinking of it this way. An armor save doesn't give you another boy. It changes you from whatever save you would otherwise have to a 4+ save. So if that's a 6+ t shirt against CCWs, it's now a 4+. If that was no save, you now have a 4+ save.

So best case scenario, that's a 50% increase to the survivability of your orc boy (no save versus 4+). But it's not costed as a 50% increase to survivability, because it's 4/6. So for a couple points more, you could buy another boy that has an additional wound, an additional 6+ save, plus the offensive capability and mob rule/leadership values that come with another ork body.

Now, when you add AP4 or better, it just gets even worse.

However, I'm thinking of this abstractly, and I'm trying to think - having massive units is a bad thing. It's bad for maneuverability around terrain, it's bad for getting into close combat, it's bad for getting cover saves, it's bad for fitting inside transports, it's bad for the duration it would take to move all of those stinking models, it's bad for the time it would take for me to PAINT all those damn models, it's bad in terms of how difficult it would be to maneuver into firing range - in other words, there are a huge number of reasons not to want more ork boys versus having less. So in terms of pure mathematics, yes, the armor save is overcosted purely on a boy-per-boy basis, on the other hand, I'm wondering if having a green tide is more of a liability than having a large concentration of boyz in one spot with slightly better survivability.