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Talizvar wrote: I guess part of my built-in "privilege" is to be ignorant of how bad it can get, so awareness is good.
That's a really good point. For those of us lucky enough not to experience prejudice-motivated harassment online and elsewhere, it can be hard to imagine its frequency, intensity, and how terrible it makes the victim feel. Suggesting the victims should just ignore it is probably the most privileged response. "Privileged" here does not necessarily mean "mean" or "oppressive" -- it really means being ignorant about something because it fortunately doesn't apply to you.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/12/03 17:31:51
Melissia wrote: Ignoring them is what empowers them, not confronting them. Ignoring them makes them emboldened to do it again.
I have been stalked for years. I have successfully ignored my stalker, and they have no power over me, because I ignore them. They are just merely a shadow now to me.
Saying that it doesn't work is illogical.
It does work, and now your trying to prove that it doesn't when you have no evidence to support otherwise. Ignoring them the problem does work. Doing nothing does work.
If your still being stalked.. then I don't think ignoring it has worked.
Surprisingly it has worked. I confronted them and it got worse, and when i started to ignore them they have stopped.
Different people call for different situations.
This wasn't the stereotypical shy person stalker this was an over obsessive person that I had to stop by ignoring their existence and acting erratic by saying "NOTICE ME!".
The just ignore them advice has never worked for me. I tend to just get the best results from confronting people.
Matters on the person. It works on the really bad people that stalk. Like the obsessive types.
Shy people. confrontation is the only way to go. But for people who aren't shy. It doesn't work.
The only way to stop stalking is to penalize the stalker so they are disincentivized from their stalking behavior. Same with harassers. When doing the action is its own incentive, ignoring it only encourages more of the same.
Not always.
People will still do it. even if they are disincentivized there is a high likely hood they will continue to do so.
Just because we have the death penalty for murderers does not make it so less people commit murder. It doesn't work all the time. There is no longer singular answer.
That's a really good point. For those of us lucky enough not to experience prejudice-motivated harassment online and elsewhere, it can be hard to imagine its frequency, intensity, and how terrible it makes the victim feel. Suggesting the victims should just ignore it is probably the most privileged response. "Privileged" here does not necessarily mean "mean" or "oppressive" -- it really means being ignorant about something because it fortunately doesn't apply to you.
It is true, but it is more or less used to put down people and their opinions on the matter.
You can look on tumblr for White Privilege and see soe really racist things put up by people, that are angry at cops and the so-called- white privilege. That I am privileged for being white is the idea spouted out by some people.
This one is different and true, but the one in the video does not make it true.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/03 17:42:18
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
Asherian Command wrote: Just because we have the death penalty for murderers does not make it so less people commit murder.
In addition to general deterrence, punishment also and separately entails specific deterrence: that is to say, the perpetrator in question is prevented from committing the same offense.
Manchu wrote: "Privileged" here does not necessarily mean "mean" or "oppressive" -- it really means being ignorant about something because it fortunately doesn't apply to you.
It is true, but it is more or less used to put down people and their opinions on the matter.
The word "privilege" is thrown around a lot online. You have to be able to recognize when it is being used in a meaningful way and when it is just an insult. The first step is to acknowledge that it can be meaningful, which also means acknowledging that privilege does exist.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/03 17:45:47
Manchu wrote: In addition to general deterrence, punishment also and separately entails specific deterrence: that is to say, the perpetrator in question is prevented from committing the same offense.
Kind of hard to do that with internet stalkers.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
The difficulty of stopping a horrible thing is no reason to let it continue.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Sure, it's site-specific. We do not tolerate it here on Dakka. If I ban someone for stalking you here, it doesn't mean they can't do it on other sites. But that is no excuse for me or other moderators to let it happen here.
To use a video game example-- in Mass Effect 2, saving everyone is very difficult. However, it is also very rewarding and heartwarming to do, and rewards you in Mass Effect 3, as well. Just because it is difficult does not make it pointless.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Melissia wrote: The difficulty of stopping a horrible thing is no reason to let it continue.
I didn't say that :/
I am just saying the suggestion doesn't work on everything plastering it down as an end all be all won't solve it.
A combination of things is the answer. Not one thing.
Sure, it's site-specific. We do not tolerate it here on Dakka. If I ban someone for stalking you here, it doesn't mean they can't do it on other sites. But that is no excuse for me or other moderators to let it happen here.
No doubt, but that doesn't stop the, It just makes it harder. Ignoring them and not acknowledging them and getting away from them is the best solution to the issue.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/03 17:49:09
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
AdeptSister wrote: Active oppression and passive oppression are still oppression, right? Why is it wrong to challenge it? Especially if leads to the same result.
Not challenging something is the easiest way to let it become the status quo.
I think it's part that you talk to the white supremacist differently then you the rich white kid in private school. It's that odd tone argument I think. People who aren't actively oppressing people want credit for not being actively oppressive and I can get that. I also get why form a practical point it doesn't matter though.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/12/03 17:56:51
nomotog wrote: People who aren't actively oppressing people want credit for not being actively oppressive and I can get that. I also get why form a practical point it doesn't matter though.
Excellent point. A friend introduced me to this concept, which I think is really useful along those lines:
nomotog wrote: People who aren't actively oppressing people want credit for not being actively oppressive and I can get that. I also get why form a practical point it doesn't matter though.
Excellent point. A friend introduced me to this concept, which I think is really useful along those lines:
Taking stab at the video in question, thanks OP for the transcript:
I answered every question... wall of text... I am afraid looking back I label much of the list as BS.
Feel free to disagree, I have my experiences to draw-on and find that when participating in what is considered a "niche" competency, job or hobby some of the prejudices are equally felt.
Spoiler:
Many women have courageously spoken out about how they experience alienation and harassment in gaming.
Yes, can happen and should not be tolerated.
Despite this fact, too many male gamers dismiss the issue as “no big deal” and insist that there isn’t really a problem. One of the luxuries of being a member of a privileged group is that the benefits afforded to us often remain invisible to us. Working towards solutions requires that male gamers become aware of the ways in which we unconsciously benefit from sexism.
The benefit is not being the target group?
Out of sight, out of mind?
Since this is perpetuated by some elements of the male group not much can be said other than not to support the behavior (or participate).
We can’t work to fix something unless we first understand its effects. With that in mind the following is a checklist of some of the concrete benefits that male gamers automatically receive simply for being men.
When I have little choice in something I am born with it is nice to keep in mind but this makes me feel I should be feeling guilty...
1. I can choose to remain completely oblivious, or indifferent to the harassment that many women face in gaming spaces.
Works for women as well when guys are bullied and ridiculed, personal experience they just move-on and not get involved. I understand the point it just is applicable either way.
2. I am never told that video games or the surrounding culture is not intended for me because I am male.
As rightfully pointed out, there are less games that appear to specifically target the female audience. All I can say is my son really liked Dora the explorer. He was made fun of by both guys and girls for liking it ("not a guy show", but vastly better than her brother's show). He has a Dora blanket he hides. I am unsure if this is not again an equally applicable thing as the marketplace hopefully equals out.
3. I can publicly post my username, gamertag or contact information online without having to fear being stalked or sexually harassed because of my gender.
Despite trying to make all things equal, women in games online still seem to be a novelty.
Many guys still seem to think this environment they are comfortable with makes for a dating or fantasizing element in their life.
I will allow this one since I have seen this garbage happening time and again and have told a few pieces of work to "get a life" and leave the person alone.
This particular topic is most in need of correction.
4. I will never be asked to “prove my gaming cred” simply because of my gender.
Kinda a loaded question.
Again the interest is piqued of gender but "gaming cred" gets slammed around no-matter who you are, it tends to get proven in the next round of a game.
5. If I enthusiastically express my fondness for video games no one will automatically assume I’m faking my interest just to “get attention” from other gamers.
Huh? This is strange to me. Usually when someone "expresses fondness" for a game they may talk about specific events or features: it becomes obvious pretty quick if they have played it and like it.
6. I can look at practically any gaming website, show, or magazine and see the voices of people of my own gender widely represented.
This is anecdotal evidence but most game write-ups I recently checked-on were written by women. With all the diverse media I am sure either sex can easily find good and useful information presented by their gender. I list this under BS.
7. When I go to a gaming event or convention, I can be relatively certain that I won’t be harassed, groped, propositioned or catcalled by total strangers.
Seen it, let us say this one is accurate and needs to stop...
8. I will never be asked or expected to speak for all other gamers who share my gender.
I call BS on this as well, my wife and her friends have called on me to represent my gender for online behavior and it's motivations. Not a pretty position to be in.
9. I can be sure that my gaming performance (good or bad) won’t be attributed to or reflect on my gender as a whole.
But say in childcare? Kinda depends on the forum of choice these prejudices crop up... but to gaming yes, it does happen still.
10. My gaming ability will never be called into question based on unrelated natural biological functions.
Oh for petesake, takes someone pretty crass to bring that up... mind-you a saw one guy player mention "red rage" and got completely destroyed by a female player.
11. I can be relatively sure my thoughts about video games won’t be dismissed or attacked based solely on my tone of voice, even if I speak in an aggressive, obnoxious, crude or flippant manner.
Utter BS, guys in particular will get attacked with ANY tone to their voice, especially as outlined and I do not care what gender you are.
12. I can openly say that my favorite games are casual, odd, non-violent, artistic, or cute without fear that my opinions will reinforce a stereotype that “men are not real gamers.”
No it will not reinforce a "male" stereotype but it may create comments about sexual orientation which is targeting a different stereotype. Honestly, unless you speak in a "manly man" manner, you can quickly and easily be listed as homosexual as an easy stereotype. So not a fair comparision.
13. When purchasing most major video games in a store, chances are I will not be asked if (or assumed to be) buying it for a wife, daughter or girlfriend.
Usually the comment is determined by age, most common is "are you buying this for your kid(s)?". I find most EB games stores in my area mainly staffed by women.
14. The vast majority of game studios, past and present, have been led and populated primarily by people of my own gender and as such most of their products have been specifically designed to cater to my demographic.
I grew up enjoying games from Sierra and many women worked on Atari 2600 games back in the day but yes, the saturation of male staff of developers is greater. If programming and game development is important enough to women it would be nice to see them pursue the work.
15. I can walk into any gaming store and see images of my gender widely represented as powerful heroes, dastardly villains and non-playable characters alike.
Works either way. Many examples of heroes, villains and NPC's. Am I oblivious or are some of the best games out there with good representation of both sexes in either role? I call BS on this as well.
16. I will almost always have the option to play a character of my gender, as most protagonists or heroes will be male by default.
Most (good) games I have played recently give the option to play either gender (exceptions: Bioshock infinite, Dishonored, TombRaider).
17. I do not have to carefully navigate my engagement with online communities or gaming spaces in order to avoid or mitigate the possibility of being harassed because of my gender.
Anything to do with the parenting forums I was seeing all kinds of prejudice against males and their expertise in child rearing, I think it depends on the saturation of a gender in a given interest group.
18. I probably never think about hiding my real-life gender online through my gamer-name, my avatar choice, or by muting voice-chat, out of fear of harassment resulting from my being male.
I liked the icon/sprite/avatar of a female game character and went for the full persona.
I found being perceived as a female (and being reasonably polite) I was showered with all kinds of invites, I saw many benefits and the occasional clumsy "pass" at me that was easily deflected. I am sure in the more competitive first person shooter forums it would be greeted differently so this has merit.
19. When I enter an online game, I can be relatively sure I won’t be attacked or harassed when and if my real-life gender is made public
Variations of the same... sure fine, ok.
20. If I am trash-talked or verbally berated while playing online, it will not be because I am male nor will my gender be invoked as an insult.
No, I will be berated in some emasculated fashion bringing to question if I am indeed my gender or sexual orientation.
21. While playing online with people I don’t know I won’t be interrogated about the size and shape of my real-life body parts, nor will I be pressured to share intimate details about my sex life for the pleasure of other players.
No, they will comment on how small my body parts are and how ugly my sexual relations must be.
22. Complete strangers generally do not send me unsolicited images of their genitalia or demand to see me naked on the basis of being a male gamer.
Got me there, I just cannot find enough insane women to game with...
23. In multiplayer games I can be pretty sure that conversations between other players will not focus on speculation about my “attractiveness” or “sexual availability” in real-life.
But there will be speculation if I am grouped with "special needs" rode on the "short bus" or needed to pay for sexual relations, or how badly my output port is abused...
24. If I choose to point out sexism in gaming, my observations will not be seen as self-serving, and will therefore be perceived as more credible and worthy of respect than those of my female counterparts, even if they are saying the exact same thing.
If I choose to point out something it would be perceived as "complaining" and statements like "man-up" and quit my "whining". If I was to start a kickstarter on a video series of the tropes of men portrayed in games it would be greeted with ridicule far worse than it's counterpart.
25. Because it was created by a straight white man, this checklist will likely be taken more seriously than if it had been written by virtually any female gamer.
Then it could be stated it lacked the proper perspective or experience so this I call BS.
These benefits should not be reserved for men.
This list is not meant to suggest that male gamers are always treated well. Sometimes we are bullied or subjected to online nastiness, but it is not based on or because of our gender.
In order to make change first we need to acknowledge the problem, and then we must take responsibility for it as a community, so we can actively work together, with people of all genders, to dismantle the parts of gaming culture that perpetuate these imbalances.
Agreeable.
All people, of all genders, must be treated with respect and dignity.
This is the whole thing in a nutshell.
A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte
Women, including trans women, commonly report experiencing gender-related microaggressions.[citation needed] Microaggressions commonly endured by women include catcalls or wolf-whistling; the male gaze in an inappropriate context; being touched without permission; condescension; being ignored or frequently interrupted; and having their ideas at work attributed to others.[7] Some examples of sexist microagressions are "[addressing someone by using] a sexist name, a man refusing to wash dishes because it is 'woman's work,' displaying nude pin-ups of women at places of employment, someone making unwanted sexual advances toward another person
Uhm, what? This is not microaggression. Its sexual harrassment and or bullying. I dont know about other countries but its covered quite clearly and openly under Irish law. I've done HR/employment law for 10 years.
You commit any of those above acts in a company that follows Irish legislation and has a bullying/harrassment policy and you're up on at least a disciplinary warning and at most a tribunial. And no Im not talking about the local knackers yard where the foreman dosent give a beep.
Wiki, once again proving to have gaping holes in its information
Dman137 wrote:
goobs is all you guys will ever be
By 1-irt: Still as long as Hissy keeps showing up this is one of the most entertaining threads ever.
You know I was so happy when I saw that for multiple hours on in this had not been responded to. Let the storm begin and may those of us somewhat sane roast popcorn and feast to the storm we are about to watch!
Talizvar wrote: Taking stab at the video in question, thanks OP for the transcript: I answered every question... wall of text... I am afraid looking back I label much of the list as BS. Feel free to disagree, I have my experiences to draw-on and find that when participating in what is considered a "niche" competency, job or hobby some of the prejudices are equally felt.
Spoiler:
Many women have courageously spoken out about how they experience alienation and harassment in gaming.
Yes, can happen and should not be tolerated.
Despite this fact, too many male gamers dismiss the issue as “no big deal” and insist that there isn’t really a problem. One of the luxuries of being a member of a privileged group is that the benefits afforded to us often remain invisible to us. Working towards solutions requires that male gamers become aware of the ways in which we unconsciously benefit from sexism.
The benefit is not being the target group? Out of sight, out of mind? Since this is perpetuated by some elements of the male group not much can be said other than not to support the behavior (or participate).
We can’t work to fix something unless we first understand its effects. With that in mind the following is a checklist of some of the concrete benefits that male gamers automatically receive simply for being men.
When I have little choice in something I am born with it is nice to keep in mind but this makes me feel I should be feeling guilty...
1. I can choose to remain completely oblivious, or indifferent to the harassment that many women face in gaming spaces.
Works for women as well when guys are bullied and ridiculed, personal experience they just move-on and not get involved. I understand the point it just is applicable either way.
2. I am never told that video games or the surrounding culture is not intended for me because I am male.
As rightfully pointed out, there are less games that appear to specifically target the female audience. All I can say is my son really liked Dora the explorer. He was made fun of by both guys and girls for liking it ("not a guy show", but vastly better than her brother's show). He has a Dora blanket he hides. I am unsure if this is not again an equally applicable thing as the marketplace hopefully equals out.
3. I can publicly post my username, gamertag or contact information online without having to fear being stalked or sexually harassed because of my gender.
Despite trying to make all things equal, women in games online still seem to be a novelty. Many guys still seem to think this environment they are comfortable with makes for a dating or fantasizing element in their life. I will allow this one since I have seen this garbage happening time and again and have told a few pieces of work to "get a life" and leave the person alone. This particular topic is most in need of correction.
4. I will never be asked to “prove my gaming cred” simply because of my gender.
Kinda a loaded question. Again the interest is piqued of gender but "gaming cred" gets slammed around no-matter who you are, it tends to get proven in the next round of a game.
5. If I enthusiastically express my fondness for video games no one will automatically assume I’m faking my interest just to “get attention” from other gamers.
Huh? This is strange to me. Usually when someone "expresses fondness" for a game they may talk about specific events or features: it becomes obvious pretty quick if they have played it and like it.
6. I can look at practically any gaming website, show, or magazine and see the voices of people of my own gender widely represented.
This is anecdotal evidence but most game write-ups I recently checked-on were written by women. With all the diverse media I am sure either sex can easily find good and useful information presented by their gender. I list this under BS.
7. When I go to a gaming event or convention, I can be relatively certain that I won’t be harassed, groped, propositioned or catcalled by total strangers.
Seen it, let us say this one is accurate and needs to stop...
8. I will never be asked or expected to speak for all other gamers who share my gender.
I call BS on this as well, my wife and her friends have called on me to represent my gender for online behavior and it's motivations. Not a pretty position to be in.
9. I can be sure that my gaming performance (good or bad) won’t be attributed to or reflect on my gender as a whole.
But say in childcare? Kinda depends on the forum of choice these prejudices crop up... but to gaming yes, it does happen still.
10. My gaming ability will never be called into question based on unrelated natural biological functions.
Oh for petesake, takes someone pretty crass to bring that up... mind-you a saw one guy player mention "red rage" and got completely destroyed by a female player.
11. I can be relatively sure my thoughts about video games won’t be dismissed or attacked based solely on my tone of voice, even if I speak in an aggressive, obnoxious, crude or flippant manner.
Utter BS, guys in particular will get attacked with ANY tone to their voice, especially as outlined and I do not care what gender you are.
12. I can openly say that my favorite games are casual, odd, non-violent, artistic, or cute without fear that my opinions will reinforce a stereotype that “men are not real gamers.”
No it will not reinforce a "male" stereotype but it may create comments about sexual orientation which is targeting a different stereotype. Honestly, unless you speak in a "manly man" manner, you can quickly and easily be listed as homosexual as an easy stereotype. So not a fair comparision.
13. When purchasing most major video games in a store, chances are I will not be asked if (or assumed to be) buying it for a wife, daughter or girlfriend.
Usually the comment is determined by age, most common is "are you buying this for your kid(s)?". I find most EB games stores in my area mainly staffed by women.
14. The vast majority of game studios, past and present, have been led and populated primarily by people of my own gender and as such most of their products have been specifically designed to cater to my demographic.
I grew up enjoying games from Sierra and many women worked on Atari 2600 games back in the day but yes, the saturation of male staff of developers is greater. If programming and game development is important enough to women it would be nice to see them pursue the work.
15. I can walk into any gaming store and see images of my gender widely represented as powerful heroes, dastardly villains and non-playable characters alike.
Works either way. Many examples of heroes, villains and NPC's. Am I oblivious or are some of the best games out there with good representation of both sexes in either role? I call BS on this as well.
16. I will almost always have the option to play a character of my gender, as most protagonists or heroes will be male by default.
Most (good) games I have played recently give the option to play either gender (exceptions: Bioshock infinite, Dishonored, TombRaider).
17. I do not have to carefully navigate my engagement with online communities or gaming spaces in order to avoid or mitigate the possibility of being harassed because of my gender.
Anything to do with the parenting forums I was seeing all kinds of prejudice against males and their expertise in child rearing, I think it depends on the saturation of a gender in a given interest group.
18. I probably never think about hiding my real-life gender online through my gamer-name, my avatar choice, or by muting voice-chat, out of fear of harassment resulting from my being male.
I liked the icon/sprite/avatar of a female game character and went for the full persona. I found being perceived as a female (and being reasonably polite) I was showered with all kinds of invites, I saw many benefits and the occasional clumsy "pass" at me that was easily deflected. I am sure in the more competitive first person shooter forums it would be greeted differently so this has merit.
19. When I enter an online game, I can be relatively sure I won’t be attacked or harassed when and if my real-life gender is made public
Variations of the same... sure fine, ok.
20. If I am trash-talked or verbally berated while playing online, it will not be because I am male nor will my gender be invoked as an insult.
No, I will be berated in some emasculated fashion bringing to question if I am indeed my gender or sexual orientation.
21. While playing online with people I don’t know I won’t be interrogated about the size and shape of my real-life body parts, nor will I be pressured to share intimate details about my sex life for the pleasure of other players.
No, they will comment on how small my body parts are and how ugly my sexual relations must be.
22. Complete strangers generally do not send me unsolicited images of their genitalia or demand to see me naked on the basis of being a male gamer.
Got me there, I just cannot find enough insane women to game with...
23. In multiplayer games I can be pretty sure that conversations between other players will not focus on speculation about my “attractiveness” or “sexual availability” in real-life.
But there will be speculation if I am grouped with "special needs" rode on the "short bus" or needed to pay for sexual relations, or how badly my output port is abused...
24. If I choose to point out sexism in gaming, my observations will not be seen as self-serving, and will therefore be perceived as more credible and worthy of respect than those of my female counterparts, even if they are saying the exact same thing.
If I choose to point out something it would be perceived as "complaining" and statements like "man-up" and quit my "whining". If I was to start a kickstarter on a video series of the tropes of men portrayed in games it would be greeted with ridicule far worse than it's counterpart.
25. Because it was created by a straight white man, this checklist will likely be taken more seriously than if it had been written by virtually any female gamer.
Then it could be stated it lacked the proper perspective or experience so this I call BS.
These benefits should not be reserved for men. This list is not meant to suggest that male gamers are always treated well. Sometimes we are bullied or subjected to online nastiness, but it is not based on or because of our gender. In order to make change first we need to acknowledge the problem, and then we must take responsibility for it as a community, so we can actively work together, with people of all genders, to dismantle the parts of gaming culture that perpetuate these imbalances.
Agreeable.
All people, of all genders, must be treated with respect and dignity.
This is the whole thing in a nutshell.
4 and 5 I think that goes back to the fake geek girl thing. You know when we had some people saying some women were faking being geeks or that they were geek enough. It was horribly stupid, but it did happen.
9 and 17 In child care yes, in gameing no. We mostly talk about games in this forum, but ya men get no respect when it comes to domestic work and that bonks. (I ended up baseing one of my midterms around this. I got a B+ on it.)
You mention being called out for not being manly enough. I agree that is bonk too. People need to stop doing that. People need to cut that out.
Women, including trans women, commonly report experiencing gender-related microaggressions.[citation needed] Microaggressions commonly endured by women include catcalls or wolf-whistling; the male gaze in an inappropriate context; being touched without permission; condescension; being ignored or frequently interrupted; and having their ideas at work attributed to others.[7] Some examples of sexist microagressions are "[addressing someone by using] a sexist name, a man refusing to wash dishes because it is 'woman's work,' displaying nude pin-ups of women at places of employment, someone making unwanted sexual advances toward another person
Uhm, what? This is not microaggression. Its sexual harrassment and or bullying. I dont know about other countries but its covered quite clearly and openly under Irish law. I've done HR/employment law for 10 years. You commit any of those above acts in a company that follows Irish legislation and has a bullying/harrassment policy and you're up on at least a disciplinary warning and at most a tribunial. And no Im not talking about the local knackers yard where the foreman dosent give a beep. Wiki, once again proving to have gaping holes in its information
Ya that sounds like rather active oppression. Lets not do that stuff people.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/12/03 20:00:34
As always I am firmly on the fence with this sort of thing. I never make as big a deal of things in life as people seem to, so it may just be part of my personality, but about half of them seem such a tiny deal that I think it starts to border on the crazy militancy side of things. You know, like say 13 for example "chances are I wont be asked if the game is for another person" is that really a big deal? I remember buying Burning Crusade back in the day and some fething.. super annoying hipster goth type guy went "Oh hang on.. I bet I can guess.. I can tell by the way you look, I bet you are like... an alliance paladin or something"
Thats similarly rude, but its a non issue surely? Some random guy speculates about you and you just go "yeah cheers mate" and walk off, is this type of thing really worth making videos about?
Obviously many of the points are good ones, specifically all of the actual harassment stuff, I took my wife to Blizzcon a few years ago and she got a few pervy comments and I find that gak embarrassing and intolerable, but some points aren't, and some apply to both sexes too.
For example I think if you put your actual contact details online you are a lunatic, regardless of your gender. I don't think men are immune to getting harassed off weirdos on the internet, obviously, because I wouldn't dream of putting my phone number under my dakka signature.
I've had it out with Mel plenty of times so i don't feel the need to bang on about it, I certainly support the core tenets of feminism, I just feel that some of this stuff is a little too facile so it actually harms the movement.
I would have cut the list down to the big ten, so people like me and tens of millions of women don't see them and go "Crazy feminists, they complain about the most stupid gak!"
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We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.
LuciusAR wrote:Oh goodie, a video where a woman who has a huge platform and the ear of large media outlets lectures everyday joes on how ‘privileged’ they are.
Asherian Command wrote:A bunch of white guys telling me how Privileged I am, because I am a white male. Yes I completely privileged tell that to my friends living in Israel who are white males who are currently being bombed and killed.
Frankenberry wrote:So I'm supposed to apologize for being born a while male who plays video games. feth that.
Sigvatr wrote:Sigh, stopped watching at 2 min. It's a "My privilege penis is longer than yours!" video that's...supposed to make you feel bad for being "privileged".
I haven't seen so much aggressive apathy in quite some time.
No. Nobody wants you to apologise. Nobody wants you to feel bad for being born a white male. And if you think that people getting killed in Israel has anything to do with the discussion, you might as well link in what you had for breakfast today for all the comprehension you're actually showing. It would be about as relevant.
White male 'privilege' in this particular context/scenario, is not about having something that others do not. So all the comments about, 'being a white male never helped me get ahead in life', or 'Being a white male doesn't stop you starving on the streets!' are showing a fundamental disconnect and absolute failure to grasp what is actually being discussed.
The white male 'privilege' is actually about not having something that someone else does. In other words, not being lucky [/sarcasm] enough to have the same sexual harassment, denigration, and assumptions made about you as some others do.
Nobody is asking you to apologise. Nobody is telling you that you have something you don't. Nobody is demanding you be ashamed for being a male. All they are trying to do is make you aware of how some other people how to suffer in ways that you do not. Because as the first point says, you do have the luxury to 'remain completely oblivious, or indifferent to the harassment that many women face in gaming spaces'.
If somebody can seize upon that and turn it into a personal attack upon them, then they clearly have a persecution complex that clearly outstrips their reading comprehensive capacities and basic empathy for their fellow human beings. Which is sad, and more than a little pathetic.
Well. If you are being harassed don't acknowledge it. I have been harassed and bullied for my entire life, because I am different, because I spoke differently, and I was shy and rarely spoke to people in grade school. From my experience the best way to stop a bully apart from telling on them or jabbing them in the throat (which causes more harm than good). Is to ignore them, remove them from power, make them inadequate. Be intelligent.
Bullying and sexual or sexist harassment are very different things. One is purely sadistic. You are correct in that people do it to get a rise out of you. And you are correct in that ignoring it very often defuses it.
Sexual/sexist harassment is different because the motivations are different. The goal is sexual harassment is not solely the reaction of the target, but also the gratification of the performer. Ignoring it does not take away that gratification, and so the harassment often continues. Likewise, the goal of sexist harassment (much like racial harassment), is the active denigration of another so as to lower their status in the eyes of both the target and other observers. That's why racists, sexists, and many other 'ists' are so very, very loud about what they have to say.
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I think the biggest catch and the one that's going to ruin the points the most is those flawed moments of information. It's a classic for FeministFrequency. The concept itself isn't new. Overall, the "core" gaming demographic is targeted at the young adult/teen male (I'm going to be lazy and call "core" gaming video games and not include games on social media that is actually heavily more oriented and marketed towards females although more equally, I've certainly seen a decent chunk marketed to the "male" interests). Overall there are some decent ideas there, some things that do most certainly have merit to them but the big catch is that the observation has a lot of flaws. There's this catch that there always seems to be some hole in the argument that can get poked. For example, the Hitman moving dead bodies and Fallout dead bodies. The things add up and people poke holes at it. Also doesn't help that twitter is a terrible invention and ruins my opinions of basically anybody that frequently uses it especially when they are feeling emotional. Exception to this rule is the Bayonetta review, that was horrid.
Has some good merit, could have been sliced down to the key ones. Overall my biggest problem is I didn't learn anything new from it.
Obviously I agree with the majority of your post Ketara, but its words like "suffering" that I feel we use too cheaply.
I mean, actual harassment is suffering, if some arsehole shouts at you in the street or says something obscene its fething shocking, but if my wife goes to the game store to get me a game and the bloke says "So is this for your boyfriend or something?" are we actually classing that as "suffering" as well?
Being too aggressive with absolutely anything normally has a negative affect, whether its religion, feminism, drinking pints or loving candy. I think they should concentrate on the big issues like actual sexism and harassment more (number 22 is a perfect example!) and leave things like "people think I might be faking my interest" off.
We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.
I would argue (leaving legal definitions aside) that bullying is the exact same. Bullying is not purely sadism as you state.
You are correct. I would argue that sadism is the most prevalent and primary motivating force in bullying however, and very often the only one. Not always, but for the purposes of a discussion on sexism, a quick separation of the most common primary motivations for these behaviours is sufficient.
Sadism is often a feature of sexual/sexist harassment too, but sexual gratification is usually the primary motivation for the former, and that is why solutions for bullying are not usually the same as solutions for sexual harassment. Sexist harassment is a bit more convoluted and brings things such as belief systems and gender conditioning into play, which again, do not usually function as primary motivators for bog standard bullying.
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Perhaps it becomes suffering if you have to endure the same kind of crap constantly, day in, day out. The straw that breaks the camel's back kind of thing.
mattyrm wrote: Obviously I agree with the majority of your post Ketara, but its words like "suffering" that I feel we use too cheaply.
I mean, actual harassment is suffering, if some arsehole shouts at you in the street or says something obscene its fething shocking, but if my wife goes to the game store to get me a game and the bloke says "So is this for your boyfriend or something?" are we actually classing that as "suffering" as well?
It comes down to a difference in perspective, I think.
For example, I was groped once by a thoroughly unattractive lady at a party. It didn't freak me out, and it didn't scar me psychologically in any way. Conversely, a female friend of mine was groped by an old man on public transport two weeks ago, and has suffered severe anxieties about taking the bus since.
What's the difference? Why does it bother her, but not me? The answer is perspective.
I, as a fairly broad man, am confident in myself. Not only am I reasonably certain that it most likely won't happen again to any substantial degree (leastways, not if the missus has anything to say about it), but I am secure that I could physically beat off any female assailant who appeared with the urge to shove her hands down my pants.
Your average woman does not have that security. The experience of having it done to you merely rams home extremely forcefully, the fact that you are at the absolute physical mercy of the majority of the male half of the population. It installs a level of fear and anxiety that I quite simply will never suffer. So when your average builder makes a wolfwhistle and crotch jerks in your direction on the street, you are suddenly struck again with the realisation that if one of these men gets it into their heads to do something to you, you cannot stop them. And what's more, the men who can do these things to you are everywhere.
Your average bloke will think to himself, 'Huh. Frigid cow. I'd be happy if women told me I was attractive every day!' But they fail to take into account that power dynamic. Their empathy only stretches as far as inserting themselves, with their own mentalities, assurances, and thought processes, into the woman's metaphorical shoes and situation.
The result is a failure to actually understand what it is the woman feels in that position. In a similar fashion, your average bloke simply does not comprehend what it is like to have implicitly sexist put downs hurled in our direction every ten minutes, because we don't tend to suffer from them ourselves.
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Kilkrazy wrote: Perhaps it becomes suffering if you have to endure the same kind of crap constantly, day in, day out. The straw that breaks the camel's back kind of thing.
Online harassment is actual sexism.
True enough that I suppose, which is why I did take the time to mention that it may well be my personality to shrug things off that other people may find very offensive.
My wife said I am visibly brainwashed thanks to the grueling mental conditioning I received as a youngster because I rarely find anything genuinely upsetting. I never thought of it that way until she pointed it out though, so I am not quick to judge people that do have a low bar, I just stand by my opinion that being confrontational about small issues may do more harm than good.
I mean, that must be true because look at all of the women that sign up for these campaigns against feminism? I'm sure things like that whole "I don't need feminism" thing would never have existed, and the movement would have complete and total support from almost everyone if they focused on the big things, like sending people dick shots, and ignored the little things, like a bloke saying "good morning" during the walk to work.
After plenty of conversations with many of the active feminists on here I am now well aware of why they do concentrate on those things that I perceive to be small, I get it and I agree with most of what Mel says for example, but what I'm saying is that many people do not put the effort and reading time into things that the enlightened posters on dakka do, and I think if you really want a movement to succeed you need to aim your efforts at the layman, and when it comes to feminism, how many people have a negative outlook of it?
Plenty, and they really shouldn't, but focusing on the trivial so often has made people cynical, even women. I'm not arguing against any of the principals of feminism, I agree with it wholeheartedly, I'm simply saying that I feel a really aggressive Dawkins style approach to the topic may indeed be a negative for the movement in general. Things like say "Shirtgate" for example definitely seem to have a negative effect because how many women made YouTube videos decrying all of the women that complained about the guys shirt?
We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.
mattyrm wrote: Obviously I agree with the majority of your post Ketara, but its words like "suffering" that I feel we use too cheaply.
I mean, actual harassment is suffering, if some arsehole shouts at you in the street or says something obscene its fething shocking, but if my wife goes to the game store to get me a game and the bloke says "So is this for your boyfriend or something?" are we actually classing that as "suffering" as well?
It comes down to a difference in perspective, I think.
For example, I was groped once by a thoroughly unattractive lady at a party. It didn't freak me out, and it didn't scar me psychologically in any way. Conversely, a female friend of mine was groped by an old man on public transport two weeks ago, and has suffered severe anxieties about taking the bus since.
What's the difference? Why does it bother her, but not me? The answer is perspective.
I, as a fairly broad man, am confident in myself. Not only am I reasonably certain that it most likely won't happen again to any substantial degree (leastways, not if the missus has anything to say about it), but I am secure that I could physically beat off any female assailant who appeared with the urge to shove her hands down my pants.
Your average woman does not have that security. The experience of having it done to you merely rams home extremely forcefully, the fact that you are at the absolute physical mercy of the majority of the male half of the population. It installs a level of fear and anxiety that I quite simply will never suffer. So when your average builder makes a wolfwhistle and crotch jerks in your direction on the street, you are suddenly struck again with the realisation that if one of these men gets it into their heads to do something to you, you cannot stop them. And what's more, the men who can do these things to you are everywhere.
Your average bloke will think to himself, 'Huh. Frigid cow. I'd be happy if women told me I was attractive every day!' But they fail to take into account that power dynamic. Their empathy only stretches as far as inserting themselves, with their own mentalities, assurances, and thought processes, into the woman's metaphorical shoes and situation.
The result is a failure to actually understand what it is the woman feels in that position.
I concur, see above. A gay bloke once savagely grabbed both of my plums in a bar and after I managed to dislodge his hand I just wandered over to my missus, told her what happened, and we both found it most amusing, I'm sure the same wouldn't be true if a bloke jammed his hand up my missus skirt.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/03 20:45:35
We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.