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SM bikes with grav guns
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Made in kr
Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight






Tokyo, Japan

Having an internal debate between the best use of some fast moving assaulty or shooty things that can threaten MC's primarily (WK, DK, riptide, nids, or even imperial knights)

Debating between grav bikes + grav centurions (or maybe just more bikes) vs power fist +claws/ power fist + storm shield TWC with possible Iron priest on TWC with ablative wolves as I'm thinking of things to help counter MC's.

In this role, which is going to be the better option?

Yes, I understand that these are very different armies and that your allies are going to be a major deciding factor but for sake of argument, let's just say you can ally in just one other faction to help cover some deficiencies, what would you pick?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/12/05 11:14:54


+ Thought of the day + Not even in death does duty end.


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





UK

As a primarily Tyranid player, I am more scared of Grav Guns (either CentStar or Bikes) than TWC. Reason being that FMC's don't really care about TWC, but pretty much have to Jink in case a Grav Gun hits to avoid going to ground.

YMDC = nightmare 
   
Made in gb
Sybarite Swinging an Agonizer





Kazakhstan

TWC work best with bikes, especially with a wolflord. Cent star needs loth or tig to work, otherwise youre wasting youre points.
   
Made in us
Nurgle Chosen Marine on a Palanquin






I have had TWC squads rip through any and all sorts of enemies. I believe they have a much stronger battlefield presence than bikes do.

   
Made in us
Sadistic Inquisitorial Excruciator





Bikes with grav are cheaper, so you can have more squads threatening stuff in multiple places at once. Also, they can have Obj Secure, though TWC should be able to just clear objectives.
   
Made in kr
Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight






Tokyo, Japan

Man, it's hard to decide.Even the poll is nearly dead even. I'm about as confused as when I started lol.

I guess if we break it down into the pros and cons?

SM grav bikes -

cheaper per model
can shoot things so more of a problem for FMC's and has bigger threat radius
fast
tough though depends on cover saves instead of invul generally going to attract some fire as they close though can still overload the enemy with volume of bikes + drop pods + other threats turn 1-2
invisible draigocentstar is also a thing potentially with this faction and allies
Overall better anti-air capabilities possible with units from this faction

TWC -
more expensive per model so less body counts
easier to make into a deathstar
increased survival with storm shields (comes at a price) also very tough (but more vulnurable to str 10's - generally rare)
extremely choppy but has no shooting
very much of a bullet magnet though again still can overload an enemy with speed + drop pods and also allied forces that often don't get pods having an effect like GK purifiers in pods or retributors in pods, or centirons in pods @_@

....

Hrm.. how do you guys think a SM grav bike + TWC detatchment list would work as a TAC kind of thing?


+ Thought of the day + Not even in death does duty end.


 
   
Made in se
Been Around the Block




I'm not sure I get the "less body counts" argument for bikes over TWC. Sure, TWC will be fewer models at the same cost but they have 2 wounds each.

Also, by adding IPs or WL/WGBLs you can easily add cheap ablative wounds in the form of fenrisian/cyber wolves (which can be used to put str 10 wounds on).

But well, using a list with both bikes and wolves seems like it could be loads of fun!
   
Made in kr
Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight






Tokyo, Japan

brings another question too, if you were the enemy, which one would you shoot first? The grav bikes or TWC both running full bore at you with some drop pods full of other nastiness on your doorstep?

Also if you were to somehow combine grav bikes + TWC, what should the rest of the list look like? anti-air with uh... hrm...stormtalons? Or drop pod dev centurions?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/04 14:06:06


+ Thought of the day + Not even in death does duty end.


 
   
Made in us
Shunting Grey Knight Interceptor





Now granted, I don't really like big deathstar units so take my advice for what it's worth - but look at the base unit of bikes. 103 points for 3 bikers with 2 gravguns and a combi grav? That's just fantastic firepower for dirt cheap. And the unit is small enough to hide behind anything. A wall, a rhino, whatever. Just have them sit back, and wait for an opportunity to jump out and hose down a wraithknight. And if they die before really getting to be useful? It was only a hundred points! A hundred points that punches far, far above its weight.

Is the TWC squad "better" than my li'l unit of bikers? Sure. But I can take two or three of them and still have it cost less than Wolf-Star.

Edit: Playstyle also matters here. If you're going for a full on alpha strike, maybe you want a deathstar running up the gut to force your foe to make hard decisions. You could maybe accomplish the same thing with grav-bikes, but they work differently. The little three man bike squads I've described honestly work best as denial units. Hide them somewhere midfield, and then they have a nice 30" threat range that your enemy has to be careful of when he goes to get objectives.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/04 15:14:56


Sable Brotherhood - 2000pts
Wraithsight Corsairs - 2000pts
Void Angels - 500pts 
   
Made in us
Raging Ravener




All over the place

 sudojoe wrote:
brings another question too, if you were the enemy, which one would you shoot first?


Nids - Bikes, tarpit the TWC with gribblies
Crons - Bikes as well, Wraiths/scarabs to deal with TWC
DE- TWC, I have enough shots to force you to fail a bunch of saves, then tarpit with wyches. THEN go after the bikes
Marines- Thats a toss up, depends on a whole lot of variables
and Tau- Suits shoot bikes, Everything else forces saves on TWC

This is all list dependant ofc, but generally speaking thats what i would go for

6000 4000 3500 3000 4000
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky." - Tom Kirby
Successful Trades: HokieHWT, Physh, rothrich, ProjectOneGaming, revackey, chaos0xomega, Redfinger, Kavik_Whitescar 
   
Made in us
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin






What I've found as being a great answer to almost everything is the Gazgull Bullyboy formation. Give them trucks with planks and pretty much if its on the ground it's dead. Three imperial knights hassling you? No problem (I actually killed three by turn two in one game). Invisible centstar bouncing around with Draigo? Granted you need all three units of meganobz but you can make the censtar's life miserable. Mawloc's giving you issues? I've had two meganobs eat one for lunch. Problems with FMC or cronair? Sorry, can't help you there. That's why I picked up a pair of vengeance weapon batteries with the lasconon option.
   
Made in gb
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin






Where is the "both" option?
   
Made in ru
!!Goffik Rocker!!






They have a completely different role and way of use. How can you compare those.
   
Made in us
Executing Exarch





McKenzie, TN

You could always run a TWC unit and 2-3 drop pods with grav centurion units in each one. Have your cake and eat it too.

The choice between the bikes and the TWC unit is really more about what the rest of your army has and if you are taking SM with a chapter tactic that benefits bike units (and were planning to take advantage of a biker HQ, otherwise he becomes a tax).
   
Made in kr
Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight






Tokyo, Japan

 koooaei wrote:
They have a completely different role and way of use. How can you compare those.


I think my brain processes these 2 units similarly due to "play feeling" cause of T5 (for wound calculations), how fast they go (12' with differences to turbo boost vs run and dangerous terrain checks), and general targets such as vs MC's and tanks. I generally think about them assaulting things but also sometimes shoot but generally are aimed at some place I want to get to / get into combat with...

yes, definately different and I totally understand what you mean by it but in this poor old guardsman's brains, they just sorta "feel" similar. hey, at least I got that they were both fast attacks right XD

You could always run a TWC unit and 2-3 drop pods with grav centurion units in each one. Have your cake and eat it too.

The choice between the bikes and the TWC unit is really more about what the rest of your army has and if you are taking SM with a chapter tactic that benefits bike units (and were planning to take advantage of a biker HQ, otherwise he becomes a tax).


Now if I do this, with grav bikes, do I really need the grav centurions in pods? I'm honestly confused on what else to put in there. I like having the synergy of pods and fast movers being in the opponent's face by turn 2 almost guaranteed but I feel like it becomes a totally rock paper scissors game. I'd dominate an alpha strike but I'd be a bad set up for beta-strike reserve based armies I feel.

I think I'd depend on the TWC and bikes to get across the field around the same pace with some jinks/storm shield/artificer armor tanking (via iron priest IC) I'd think my bane would be fearless hordes (I'd try to assault the same unit of blob with like both sets of TWC and bikes in the same round to just plain out kill them though not sure how reasonable that is) and also air power since well I'm choppy.

I'd have to get either storm talons (with bike captain making them troops I can take more talons for FA right?) or storm ravens / stormwolf thingy (never used one actually in pure anti-air role) to maybe be the gunboats / anti-air/ drop off cheap 5 man scouts or w/e else is cheap and transportable, (maybe blood claws??) late game or something.

Does that sound like a balanced list for all comers? I got no psyker control I know but I figure anything short of invisible deathstars, I can probably handle alright in assault right? (thinking of you draigo+loth +centurions, or w/e else daemons have going on, or maybe farseer +counsel+shadowfield archon shannigans)

Where is the "both" option?

I actually didn't think of doing both of them at the same time option when I started the post and only came around to this in the middle of this thread as we've been talking about it.. I'm still not even convinced that this offers much if any synergy but it seems to be at least thematically fast and potentially can be good vs some things.

I'm also not sure I can quite cram all of this into one functional list either as I'm using alot of points on HQ's and other IC's etc. Would not have many storm talons/ravens/etc to prop up the holes. Maybe doable at 1500 but it'd be tight, maybe more of something for 1850?

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/12/05 11:17:06


+ Thought of the day + Not even in death does duty end.


 
   
 
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