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Ok I probably should read some of the Tolkin books, but here I go.
In the movies they state that Sauron wants to destroy the world of men (Humans) but they clearly show other groups of humans ("easterlings" the pirates and the mountain guys who raid Rohan villages) fighting alongside the Dark Lord's forces. So what is going on?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/05 03:08:19
There were numerous groups of Men in Tolkien's works and as you noted, not all of them were on the side of good.
However, when Saruon talks about about "destroying the world of Men," I think he is speaking more to the destruction of the Men (Gondor, Rohan, and the other free peoples) who opposed him and not the destruction of all Men.
d-usa wrote: "When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people."
The Blue Wizards (Gandlalf and Saruman's homeboys) are suggested to have gone into the lands of the East., and never came back. They may have been corrupted by Sauron, and led or enslaved these humans to "the dark side". Or maybe Sauron did it himself.
Also, before the Third Age, Morgoth (Sauron's master, the real Satan in this story), before he was banished, corrupted many humans upon or shortly after their arrival in Middle Earth.
Check out the Silmarillion...it has alot of background. It is written in sort of a Biblical style. If you enjoy that kind of stuff, its a great book.
Still, alot of Tolkien's work is left up to the imagination of the reader, which is awesome.
Automatically Appended Next Post: P.S. The mountain guys who raid the Rohan villages are pretty explicitly meant to be humans that the kingdom of Rohan conquered who were dispossessed of their lands and homes, and who Saruman entices to take revenge.
Automatically Appended Next Post: P.S.S. Yes, I have gotten laid before, and am now happily married.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/12/05 03:48:33
ScootyPuffJunior wrote: There were numerous groups of Men in Tolkien's works and as you noted, not all of them were on the side of good.
However, when Saruon talks about about "destroying the world of Men," I think he is speaking more to the destruction of the Men (Gondor, Rohan, and the other free peoples) who opposed him and not the destruction of all Men.
That's right. He had a special grudge against the Dundain (the people who founded Gondor and Arnor, of whom Aragorn was a descendant) as in the distant past the last King of Numenor, Ar-Pharazon the Golden brought an invasion force to Middle-Earth so powerful that Sauron himself had to surrender (and he still had the One Ring at the time)! Sauron never forgave that humiliation, even though he successfully corrupted Ar-Pharazon and thus caused the destruction of Numenor.
In the trilogy, corrupted humans are some of the best soldiers of Sauron, for at the Battle of the Pelennor the orcs broke and ran, but the Southrons, Easterlings and Haradrim would reform and rally on any defensible terrain, forcing the forces of the West to crush them in costly combats. Similarly, once Sauron was destroyed by the destruction of the Ring, the orcs again routed, trolls (who no longer had Sauron's power protecting them from the sun) turned to stone, but the corrupted humans once again, said "bring it " and sold their lives dearly.
Incidentally, Sauron is a fallen "angel", a former Mala (plural: Maiar). Middle-Earth's equivalent of Satan was his Master, Morgoth, who was once the Vala (essentially arch-angel) Melkor, but who rebelled against the One and managed to corrupt many Maiar to his side. Sauron was probably the most powerful of the fallen Maiar as he was the chief lieutenant of Morgoth, and as far as we know, the only one to survive Morgoth's overthrow and imprisonment.
Ancestral Hamster wrote: Incidentally, Sauron is a fallen "angel", a former Mala (plural: Maiar). Middle-Earth's equivalent of Satan was his Master, Morgoth, who was once the Vala (essentially arch-angel) Melkor, but who rebelled against the One and managed to corrupt many Maiar to his side. Sauron was probably the most powerful of the fallen Maiar as he was the chief lieutenant of Morgoth, and as far as we know, the only one to survive Morgoth's overthrow and imprisonment.
Even Melkor couldn't quite handle Ungoliant...I'd argue she was the most powerful of the Maiar.
Nerd game on!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/05 03:58:00
jasper76 wrote: The Blue Wizards (Gandlalf and Saruman's homeboys) are suggested to have gone into the lands of the East., and never came back. They may have been corrupted by Sauron, and led or enslaved these humans to "the dark side". Or maybe Sauron did it himself.
Tolkien commented that the Blue Wizards completed their assigned tasks and disappeared from history.
We have no idea what those tasks were but they did involve conflict against the Dark Lord at one level. One guess is that they were dispatched to secure what remained of ancient legacies against corruption. Elves first appeared in thr east, and the two Lamps were there.
Also, before the Third Age, Morgoth (Sauron's master, the real Satan in this story), before he was banished, corrupted many humans upon or shortly after their arrival in Middle Earth.
Indeed so, however Saurons servants amongst men were tribes that served him out of fear but were largely self governing. Most were allies of Mordor, and not part of Mordor. Sauron did however employ humans directly, as hey are superior to orcs in many ways. The description of the Morannon Gate includes some, and th Mouth of Sauron was himself human.
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
Ancestral Hamster wrote: Incidentally, Sauron is a fallen "angel", a former Mala (plural: Maiar). Middle-Earth's equivalent of Satan was his Master, Morgoth, who was once the Vala (essentially arch-angel) Melkor, but who rebelled against the One and managed to corrupt many Maiar to his side. Sauron was probably the most powerful of the fallen Maiar as he was the chief lieutenant of Morgoth, and as far as we know, the only one to survive Morgoth's overthrow and imprisonment.
Even Melkor couldn't quite handle Ungoliant...I'd argue she was the most powerful of the Maiar.
jasper76 wrote: The Blue Wizards (Gandlalf and Saruman's homeboys) are suggested to have gone into the lands of the East., and never came back. They may have been corrupted by Sauron, and led or enslaved these humans to "the dark side". Or maybe Sauron did it himself.
Tolkien commented that the Blue Wizards completed their assigned tasks and disappeared from history.
We have no idea what those tasks were but they did involve conflict against the Dark Lord at one level. One guess is that they were dispatched to secure what remained of ancient legacies against corruption. Elves first appeared in thr east, and the two Lamps were there.
Also, before the Third Age, Morgoth (Sauron's master, the real Satan in this story), before he was banished, corrupted many humans upon or shortly after their arrival in Middle Earth.
Indeed so, however Saurons servants amongst men were tribes that served him out of fear but were largely self governing. Most were allies of Mordor, and not part of Mordor. Sauron did however employ humans directly, as hey are superior to orcs in many ways. The description of the Morannon Gate includes some, and th Mouth of Sauron was himself human.
In the source material, yes. He was a Black Númenórean.
d-usa wrote: "When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people."
And IIRC, Uruk-Hai were Orcs (corrupted Elves) mixed with humans.
Peter Jackson went down the "monster" route. However, in the books, the orks and goblins and trolls and so forth are alot closer to "people" (vs. monsters) than they are made to be in the Jackson movies.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/12/05 06:14:19
It's also worth noting that Sauron, among his many names, is known as the Deciever. While he may be willing to use the Haradrim and Easterling in his legions to crush the 'world of Men' (perhaps better termed the Decendants of Numenor, as it's only really Gondor, Arnor and Rohan he wants destroyed), he may also have betrayed them in end should he have triumphed. The Easterlings do worship him as a deity, so he may be more lenient on them, but the rest of them could have found themselves under attack, especially the Khandish and Corsairs who were little more than mercenaries.
In the source material, yes. He was a Black Númenórean.
At its head there rode a tall and evil shape, mounted upon a black horse, if horse it was; for it was huge and hideous, and its face was a frightful mask, more like a skull than a living head, and in the sockets of its eyes and in its nostrils there burned a flame. The rider was robed all in black, and black was his lofty helm; yet this was no Ringwraith but a living man. The Lieutenant of the Tower of Barad-dûr he was, and his name is remembered in no tale; for he himself had forgotten it, and he said: ‘I am the Mouth of Sauron.’ But it is told that he was a renegade, who came of the race of those that are named the Black Númenóreans; for they established their dwellings in Middle-earth during the years of Sauron’s domination, and they worshipped him, being enamoured of evil knowledge. And he entered the service of the Dark Tower when it first rose again, and because of his cunning he grew ever higher in the Lord’s favour; and he learned great sorcery, and knew much of the mind of Sauron; and he was more cruel than any Orc.
Return of The King. - The Black Gate Opens.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/05 17:06:08
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
Bran Dawri wrote: I thought Uruk-Hi were orcs crossed with goblins, but I may be wrong. It's been a while.
I believe Saruman's Uruk-Hai are referred to as 'orcs crossed with goblin-men' in the books, yes. But in other places the word Uruk is used to describe particularly large orcs that could not have come from Isengard, so it's a little confusing.
Bran Dawri wrote: I thought Uruk-Hi were orcs crossed with goblins, but I may be wrong. It's been a while.
I believe Saruman's Uruk-Hai are referred to as 'orcs crossed with goblin-men' in the books, yes. But in other places the word Uruk is used to describe particularly large orcs that could not have come from Isengard, so it's a little confusing.
Orcs and goblins are generally considered to be the same thing. This is confusing because Tolkien's own use of the words varied, but by the end it was pretty clear that orcs and goblins were meant to be two words for the same thing.
Just a note here, Tolkien never finalized the origin story of the orcs. What we know from Silmarillion was edited by his son from a number of different takes. The version we have is obviously the most official take we'll ever get, but it's not the same as quoting something from the Lord of the Rings or The Hobbit.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/05 19:00:32
J.R.R.Tolkien didnt finalise it, but that means he never explained the process, the original or the orcs was a distinct part of the mythos, and Christopher Tolkien only edited Silmarillion, the core work was done by his father.
The corruption of the orcs was listed as Morgoths greatest crime.
Also Tolkiens mtythology started with the elves, he started writing about hobbits much later and parted the story of The Hobbit into a world that had already been in part fleshed out. The origin of the orcs was already established.
There is much we don't know about orcs, were they immortal. Some of them were smart and certainly were well enough informed, which heightened their savagery.
The stupid brute orcs are more a creration of RPGs.
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
Orlanth wrote: There is much we don't know about orcs, were they immortal. Some of them were smart and certainly were well enough informed, which heightened their savagery.
The two orc captains that meet and speak in the Morgul pass certainly seem to be both old and smart. One could even take their dialogue to mean they were both around when Mordor was last under siege.
ScootyPuffJunior wrote: There were numerous groups of Men in Tolkien's works and as you noted, not all of them were on the side of good.
However, when Saruon talks about about "destroying the world of Men," I think he is speaking more to the destruction of the Men (Gondor, Rohan, and the other free peoples) who opposed him and not the destruction of all Men.
That's right. He had a special grudge against the Dundain (the people who founded Gondor and Arnor, of whom Aragorn was a descendant) as in the distant past the last King of Numenor, Ar-Pharazon the Golden brought an invasion force to Middle-Earth so powerful that Sauron himself had to surrender (and he still had the One Ring at the time)! Sauron never forgave that humiliation, even though he successfully corrupted Ar-Pharazon and thus caused the destruction of Numenor.
Unless I'm sorely mistaken, Sauron hadn't created the One Ring during the time of Numenor. If he had, he would have lost it during its destruction since his physical form was taken out as well. It's been a while since I've read any of the Middle-Earth books though, but I suppose that would mean Sauron only had the One Ring for a brief time period then (since Elendil and Isildur led the escape from Numenor and only have lifespans of about 300 years).
ScootyPuffJunior wrote: There were numerous groups of Men in Tolkien's works and as you noted, not all of them were on the side of good.
However, when Saruon talks about about "destroying the world of Men," I think he is speaking more to the destruction of the Men (Gondor, Rohan, and the other free peoples) who opposed him and not the destruction of all Men.
That's right. He had a special grudge against the Dundain (the people who founded Gondor and Arnor, of whom Aragorn was a descendant) as in the distant past the last King of Numenor, Ar-Pharazon the Golden brought an invasion force to Middle-Earth so powerful that Sauron himself had to surrender (and he still had the One Ring at the time)! Sauron never forgave that humiliation, even though he successfully corrupted Ar-Pharazon and thus caused the destruction of Numenor.
In the trilogy, corrupted humans are some of the best soldiers of Sauron, for at the Battle of the Pelennor the orcs broke and ran, but the Southrons, Easterlings and Haradrim would reform and rally on any defensible terrain, forcing the forces of the West to crush them in costly combats. Similarly, once Sauron was destroyed by the destruction of the Ring, the orcs again routed, trolls (who no longer had Sauron's power protecting them from the sun) turned to stone, but the corrupted humans once again, said "bring it " and sold their lives dearly.
Incidentally, Sauron is a fallen "angel", a former Mala (plural: Maiar). Middle-Earth's equivalent of Satan was his Master, Morgoth, who was once the Vala (essentially arch-angel) Melkor, but who rebelled against the One and managed to corrupt many Maiar to his side. Sauron was probably the most powerful of the fallen Maiar as he was the chief lieutenant of Morgoth, and as far as we know, the only one to survive Morgoth's overthrow and imprisonment.
You forgot the Balrog. They were Maiar as well.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Sauron did not want to destroy the race of Men, rather he wished to enslave and rule over them.
However, many Men already served Sauron out of free will, mostly because they had a score to settle with the Edain of Gondor or Rohan (this goes for the Black Numenoreans, Haradrim, Dunlendings and some Easterling peoples such as the Wainriders). Others served Sauron because he promised them great rewards.
Men in Tolkien's work are divided into three groups: The Dúnedain, who are descended from the Númenóreans; The Men of the Middle, who like the Dúnedain are descended from the Edain of the First Age but stayed behind in Middle Earth instead of going to Númenór; And the Men of Shadow, those that are not descended from the Edain and served Morgoth in the First Age or Sauron in the Second and Third Ages.
It is really quite simple compared to all the different kinds of Elves.
Also, I have read these books way too much.
ScootyPuffJunior wrote: There were numerous groups of Men in Tolkien's works and as you noted, not all of them were on the side of good.
However, when Saruon talks about about "destroying the world of Men," I think he is speaking more to the destruction of the Men (Gondor, Rohan, and the other free peoples) who opposed him and not the destruction of all Men.
That's right. He had a special grudge against the Dundain (the people who founded Gondor and Arnor, of whom Aragorn was a descendant) as in the distant past the last King of Numenor, Ar-Pharazon the Golden brought an invasion force to Middle-Earth so powerful that Sauron himself had to surrender (and he still had the One Ring at the time)! Sauron never forgave that humiliation, even though he successfully corrupted Ar-Pharazon and thus caused the destruction of Numenor.
Unless I'm sorely mistaken, Sauron hadn't created the One Ring during the time of Numenor. If he had, he would have lost it during its destruction since his physical form was taken out as well. It's been a while since I've read any of the Middle-Earth books though, but I suppose that would mean Sauron only had the One Ring for a brief time period then (since Elendil and Isildur led the escape from Numenor and only have lifespans of about 300 years).
He had indeed created the One Ring before the fall of Numenor.
Ancestral Hamster wrote: Incidentally, Sauron is a fallen "angel", a former Mala (plural: Maiar). Middle-Earth's equivalent of Satan was his Master, Morgoth, who was once the Vala (essentially arch-angel) Melkor, but who rebelled against the One and managed to corrupt many Maiar to his side. Sauron was probably the most powerful of the fallen Maiar as he was the chief lieutenant of Morgoth, and as far as we know, the only one to survive Morgoth's overthrow and imprisonment.
Even Melkor couldn't quite handle Ungoliant...I'd argue she was the most powerful of the Maiar.
Nerd game on!
Challenge accepted!
However, it is uncertain that Ungoliant is a Maiar. While The Simarillion, Chapter 8, "Of the Darkening of Valinor" supports that conclusion, there is no direct statement that she is indeed one. In the Valaquenta, that precedes the chapters of the The Simarillion, the section on the Maiar does not name Ungoliant as one, although it does name Olorin (known in Middle-earth as Gandalf). The final section of the Valaquenta is "Of the Enemies", first names Melkor/Morgoth, but of the fallen Maiar it mentions the Balrogs (as Grey Templar reminded me), and Sauron. Ungoliant is not mentioned. "Among those servants of his (Morgoth) that have names the greatest was that spirit whom the Eldar called Sauron or Gorthaur the Cruel."
jasper76 wrote: The Blue Wizards (Gandalf and Saruman's homeboys) are suggested to have gone into the lands of the East., and never came back. They may have been corrupted by Sauron, and led or enslaved these humans to "the dark side". Or maybe Sauron did it himself.
Tolkien commented that the Blue Wizards completed their assigned tasks and disappeared from history.
We have no idea what those tasks were but they did involve conflict against the Dark Lord at one level. One guess is that they were dispatched to secure what remained of ancient legacies against corruption. Elves first appeared in thr east, and the two Lamps were there.
Correction. In note #3 to the section "The Istari" (The Wizards) in Unfinished Tales, Christopher Tolkien quotes a letter his father wrote in 1958 about the Blue Wizards.
"I think", he wrote, "they went as emissaries to distant regions, East and South, far out of Númenórean range: missionaries to enemy-occupied lands, as it were. What success they had I do not know; but I fear they failed, as Saruman did, though doubtless in different ways; and I suspect they were founders or beginners of secret cults and 'magic' traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron."
Seriously, one of the things I love about Tolkiens work (and the stuff Christopher Tolkien put together) is all the unanswered questions. So many little details to fill in with your imagination.
Seriously, one of the things I love about Tolkiens work (and the stuff Christopher Tolkien put together) is all the unanswered questions. So many little details to fill in with your imagination.
It's such a huge body of work as well. It's a pity that J.R.R. Tolkien could not complete The Simarillion as he would have wanted. The partly complete stories that Christopher Tolkien published later are so much more compelling that the dry summaries found in The Simarillion. I'm particularly fond of the incomplete Fall of Gondolin: that reads more like a proper heroic (though tragic) epic.
As for the Ungoliant question; there is something that bothers me. If she isn't a fallen Maiar, what is she? Melkor is the only fallen Valar, so that rules out that possible origin. Supposedly only the One can create. All of Morgoth's creatures are of things he corrupted or warped, so he couldn't have created something entirely new. Does that mean there are things outside of the One's creation that have entered into it, and so are not subject to his power?
Good thread though ... don't get to talk about Tolkien and Arda much.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/06 05:46:50
I must admit so far in my imagination, she has been a Maiar. But perhaps one could think of her (and by extension Shelob) as the brute force of nature....who's only purpose in life is to feed...not necessarily evil, just insatiably hungry (40k equivalent = Tyranids).
Just an idea.
It's hard for me to believe in Tolkiens mind she wasn't part of Illuvatars creation.....there were mysteries that no one but Illuvatar knew, and everything was meant to be part of his will.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/12/06 05:53:57
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Indeed, I always saw Ungoliant as a primal creature. Some horror spawned in the darkness before the coming of Elves.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/06 06:11:59
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
I must admit so far in my imagination, she has been a Maiar. But perhaps one could think of her (and by extension Shelob) as the brute force of nature....who's only purpose in life is to feed...not necessarily evil, just insatiably hungry (40k equivalent = Tyranids).
Just an idea.
It's hard for me to believe in Tolkiens mind she wasn't part of Illuvatars creation.....there were mysteries that no one but Illuvatar knew, and everything was meant to be part of his will.
That's the thing, it seems that Ungoliant would have some part in Illuvatar's creation, unless ...
Grey Templar wrote: Indeed, I always saw Ungoliant as a primal creature. Some horror spawned in the darkness before the coming of Elves.
Like a Great Old One out of the Lovecraft mythos. That fits. Yet that seems out of place based on the rest of the cosmology as set forth in The Simarillion.
Ah, well. There probably isn't a canonical answer unless Christopher turns up other letters from his father.
IIRC, in the Humphrey Carpenter biography of Tolkien, Tolkien mentions his earliest memory is running away from a "huge" spider. He would have been three at the time. If I'm not misremembering the biography, that would explain why spiders are the ultimate horrors in both The Hobbit and the Trilogy.
