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My friends and I were talking about making the jump back to 7th ed, as none of us got to experience it, and 2 of us play with outdated books (bretonnia and skaven respectively)

Is 7th ed fantasy worth playing around with?
Did you enjoy 7th ed?
What differences can we expect?

Let me know.
Thanks
Austin

No. You'll hate it too when 5 knights charge your big block of infantry and break it on the first round whilst taking no casualties.

 Redbad wrote:
My friends and I were talking about making the jump back to 7th ed, as none of us got to experience it, and 2 of us play with outdated books (bretonnia and skaven respectively)

Is 7th ed fantasy worth playing around with?
Did you enjoy 7th ed?
What differences can we expect?

Let me know.
Thanks
Austin

Charging gives you essentially initiative 11 (only ASF goes faster).

Fear is OP instead of a joke (autobreak if you lose combat res and opponent outnumbers you).

Unit Sizes (certain models counted as multiple models for unit size, such as calvary counting as 2 models).

No pre-measuring.

No reinforcing from the back, if your entire front rank gets wiped out you don't get to attack. You also only get 1 rank of attacks under normal circumstances.

No Stubborn for having more ranks, no extra horde attacks.

Magic is generated by a base number of dice + each wizard generates their own power and dispel dice. There is no dice cap, wizards can generate the same spell, you do not add wizard level to casts or dispels, and not being able to cast after rolling a 1 or 2 is not a thing (God damn Vampire Counts).

No re-roll leadership from army standard.

7th was atrociously bad, especially once the army book escalation game started with HE's getting army-wide ASF, followed by VC's getting an all but unstoppable Magic phase, finished off by DoC who were so brutally beyond everyone else, that it lead to the infamous DE's --> WoC --> Skaven one-upmanship game...

Not to mention that the core rules made the game predictable as hell.

How about using 7th ed army books under 8th ed rules?
I mean for other players who have updated armies?
do you think that would b e fun?

Let me know
Thanks
Austin

Experiment 626 wrote:
7th was atrociously bad, especially once the army book escalation game started with HE's getting army-wide ASF, followed by VC's getting an all but unstoppable Magic phase, finished off by DoC who were so brutally beyond everyone else, that it lead to the infamous DE's --> WoC --> Skaven one-upmanship game...

Not to mention that the core rules made the game predictable as hell.

And then 8th made the 7th DoC book one up everyone, because Bloodletters.

This all actually doesn't seem so bad. Massed infantry sucks. I hate that I can do 45 wounds to a block of clanrats, and they still get LD8 rerollable...

Now that i'm thinking about it, it may be fun. Idk

Let me know what you think about my other question

Thanks
Austin

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
7th was atrociously bad, especially once the army book escalation game started with HE's getting army-wide ASF, followed by VC's getting an all but unstoppable Magic phase, finished off by DoC who were so brutally beyond everyone else, that it lead to the infamous DE's --> WoC --> Skaven one-upmanship game...

Not to mention that the core rules made the game predictable as hell.

And then 8th made the 7th DoC book one up everyone, because Bloodletters.

No, rather it was the 140pts Loremasters abusing the BRB lores that really screwed the pooch.

what about the 6th edition?

After looking at the internet, it seems that 6th has a huge following

Thanks
Austin

 Redbad wrote:
what about the 6th edition?

After looking at the internet, it seems that 6th has a huge following

Thanks
Austin

6th was great overall, as the army book creep was much less prevalent. In fact, a lot of the complaints with 6th were that armies were toned down too much! Some like the High & Dark Elves were pretty badly under powered, while Skaven still managed to ruin most peoples' days, but overall, it was much better than the ungodly arms race that 7th manifested into.

Now 6th still contained most of the more lamented core rules of 7th, such as;
- no 'Step-up', so if your front rank fell, you didn't get to attack back.
- set charging distances, meaning if you play a M4 or M3 army, generally you only ever get to receive charges instead of pulling any of your own.
- Power/Dispel dice tied directly to the number & Lv's of your wizards, so some armies like VC's could run a phase that most armies were helpless to stop.
- multiple Dispel Scroll, meaning anyone could effectively shut down anyone else's Magic phase.
- Fear still stupidly strong.
- Cavalry still also ridiculously powerful.
- Wood Elves came at the very end and began trolling everyone with a noticeably more powerful book...

and so on...

If you're going to play an older edition though, 6th would be much better than 7th overall, simply because the balance between the army books is so much better!

Best editions to revisit:

6th
5th (so I heard from some)
4th (so I heard from a few)

cosidering that 3rd and older are true fossils (I mean, at that point you could aswell use rulebooks from other wargames) 7th is something to avoid at any cost.

6th seems like a fun game.

We might give that a try.

8th is getting old, and since we (being college students) don't have the end times books, it's the same old same old, big infantry blocks rule etc.

The older books seem like MSUs rule, and that cavalry are a frce to be reckoned with (not a joke) so maybe my bretonnian army will have a chance!

Thanks
Austin

 Redbad wrote:
The older books seem like MSUs rule, and that cavalry are a frce to be reckoned with (not a joke) so maybe my bretonnian army will have a chance!

FWIW your outdated Bret book is actually quite excellent in 8E, and Brets routinely wreck face at tournaments. Carrying your own formation rules with you from 7E to 8E helps

As to the topic at hand, sounds like you got the picture that 7E was a bad time. Do not miss one bit.

- Salvage

Experiment 626 wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
7th was atrociously bad, especially once the army book escalation game started with HE's getting army-wide ASF, followed by VC's getting an all but unstoppable Magic phase, finished off by DoC who were so brutally beyond everyone else, that it lead to the infamous DE's --> WoC --> Skaven one-upmanship game...

Not to mention that the core rules made the game predictable as hell.

And then 8th made the 7th DoC book one up everyone, because Bloodletters.

No, rather it was the 140pts Loremasters abusing the BRB lores that really screwed the pooch.

I'm fairly certain that it was the 90 bloodletters that did, and still will take most of the flak from that book.

I mean, everyone's taken the 7th chaos book to a tournament for that reason.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
7th was atrociously bad, especially once the army book escalation game started with HE's getting army-wide ASF, followed by VC's getting an all but unstoppable Magic phase, finished off by DoC who were so brutally beyond everyone else, that it lead to the infamous DE's --> WoC --> Skaven one-upmanship game...

Not to mention that the core rules made the game predictable as hell.

And then 8th made the 7th DoC book one up everyone, because Bloodletters.

No, rather it was the 140pts Loremasters abusing the BRB lores that really screwed the pooch.

I'm fairly certain that it was the 90 bloodletters that did, and still will take most of the flak from that book.

I mean, everyone's taken the 7th chaos book to a tournament for that reason.

In your mind maybe...

What DoC did do however to peeve off the masses and cause the greatest butthurt that still exists to this day however, was;
- Nurgle was stupid good for three weeks or so. (hooray for Epi & 10 wound GUO's!)
- Massed MSU Horror spam + max Flamers hands down exploded everything off the table. (seriously, every single tournament comp'ed Flamers for a good reason!)
- The Slaanesh Ld Bomb was discovered... and the world itself rage quit the game!
- 8th hit, Bloodletters were a brief thing as everyone went "zomg! Hooooooooordes rulez!" for 3 weeks.
- Daemonettes were cheaper, had more attacks, and spammed MoS Tzheralds could do the same things for them that they did for Bloodletters... but better!

Never once saw Bloodletters turn the game on its head though... sure a few lists included them, but it was always the supports, (*cough*tzheralds*cough*), that made them truly disgusting.

But I know you're just going to ignore whatever anyone else says about Bloodletters, because apparently a big bad DoC player touched your army in bad place with their meanie Bloodletters...

Experiment 626 wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
7th was atrociously bad, especially once the army book escalation game started with HE's getting army-wide ASF, followed by VC's getting an all but unstoppable Magic phase, finished off by DoC who were so brutally beyond everyone else, that it lead to the infamous DE's --> WoC --> Skaven one-upmanship game...

Not to mention that the core rules made the game predictable as hell.

And then 8th made the 7th DoC book one up everyone, because Bloodletters.

No, rather it was the 140pts Loremasters abusing the BRB lores that really screwed the pooch.

I'm fairly certain that it was the 90 bloodletters that did, and still will take most of the flak from that book.

I mean, everyone's taken the 7th chaos book to a tournament for that reason.

In your mind maybe...

What DoC did do however to peeve off the masses and cause the greatest butthurt that still exists to this day however, was;
- Nurgle was stupid good for three weeks or so. (hooray for Epi & 10 wound GUO's!)
- Massed MSU Horror spam + max Flamers hands down exploded everything off the table. (seriously, every single tournament comp'ed Flamers for a good reason!)
- The Slaanesh Ld Bomb was discovered... and the world itself rage quit the game!
- 8th hit, Bloodletters were a brief thing as everyone went "zomg! Hooooooooordes rulez!" for 3 weeks.
- Daemonettes were cheaper, had more attacks, and spammed MoS Tzheralds could do the same things for them that they did for Bloodletters... but better!

Never once saw Bloodletters turn the game on its head though... sure a few lists included them, but it was always the supports, (*cough*tzheralds*cough*), that made them truly disgusting.

But I know you're just going to ignore whatever anyone else says about Bloodletters, because apparently a big bad DoC player touched your army in bad place with their meanie Bloodletters...

So you're saying ASF S3 with no killing blow was better than I5 Hatred Killing blow with a 3+ armour save/+3 strength sword herald? Because there's a word for that. Wrong. Allow me to list the Ben Diesel 8th demons list. 90 bloodletters with heralds, 2 solo crusher champs, 2 fiends, 1 herald of tzeentch, 2-3 fiends of slaanesh(solo) And chaff.

The other major list that featured, was the herald list+Bloodthirster.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
7th was atrociously bad, especially once the army book escalation game started with HE's getting army-wide ASF, followed by VC's getting an all but unstoppable Magic phase, finished off by DoC who were so brutally beyond everyone else, that it lead to the infamous DE's --> WoC --> Skaven one-upmanship game...

Not to mention that the core rules made the game predictable as hell.

And then 8th made the 7th DoC book one up everyone, because Bloodletters.

No, rather it was the 140pts Loremasters abusing the BRB lores that really screwed the pooch.

I'm fairly certain that it was the 90 bloodletters that did, and still will take most of the flak from that book.

I mean, everyone's taken the 7th chaos book to a tournament for that reason.

In your mind maybe...

What DoC did do however to peeve off the masses and cause the greatest butthurt that still exists to this day however, was;
- Nurgle was stupid good for three weeks or so. (hooray for Epi & 10 wound GUO's!)
- Massed MSU Horror spam + max Flamers hands down exploded everything off the table. (seriously, every single tournament comp'ed Flamers for a good reason!)
- The Slaanesh Ld Bomb was discovered... and the world itself rage quit the game!
- 8th hit, Bloodletters were a brief thing as everyone went "zomg! Hooooooooordes rulez!" for 3 weeks.
- Daemonettes were cheaper, had more attacks, and spammed MoS Tzheralds could do the same things for them that they did for Bloodletters... but better!

Never once saw Bloodletters turn the game on its head though... sure a few lists included them, but it was always the supports, (*cough*tzheralds*cough*), that made them truly disgusting.

But I know you're just going to ignore whatever anyone else says about Bloodletters, because apparently a big bad DoC player touched your army in bad place with their meanie Bloodletters...

So you're saying ASF S3 with no killing blow was better than I5 Hatred Killing blow with a 3+ armour save/+3 strength sword herald? Because there's a word for that. Wrong. Allow me to list the Ben Diesel 8th demons list. 90 bloodletters with heralds, 2 solo crusher champs, 2 fiends, 1 herald of tzeentch, 2-3 fiends of slaanesh(solo) And chaff.

The other major list that featured, was the herald list+Bloodthirster.

So apparently you know no one who ever used Mindrazzor'd 'Nettes? Lucky you... the rest of the world, eh, not so much.

And also, no wonder you hate Bloodletters so much if you kept letting opponents give them a free initiative boost, since they were, and still are, only I4...

6th, however....

 Redbad wrote:
I hate that I can do 45 wounds to a block of clanrats, and they still get LD8 rerollable...

Thanks
Austin

So flank them. Skaven get their rank bonus to their Ld. No rank bonus, no Ld.

Experiment 626 wrote:


6th was great overall, as the army book creep was much less prevalent. In fact, a lot of the complaints with 6th were that armies were toned down too much! Some like the High & Dark Elves were pretty badly under powered, while Skaven still managed to ruin most peoples' days, but overall, it was much better than the ungodly arms race that 7th manifested into.

Now 6th still contained most of the more lamented core rules of 7th, such as;
- no 'Step-up', so if your front rank fell, you didn't get to attack back.
- set charging distances, meaning if you play a M4 or M3 army, generally you only ever get to receive charges instead of pulling any of your own.
- Power/Dispel dice tied directly to the number & Lv's of your wizards, so some armies like VC's could run a phase that most armies were helpless to stop.
- multiple Dispel Scroll, meaning anyone could effectively shut down anyone else's Magic phase.
- Fear still stupidly strong.
- Cavalry still also ridiculously powerful.
- Wood Elves came at the very end and began trolling everyone with a noticeably more powerful book...

and so on...

If you're going to play an older edition though, 6th would be much better than 7th overall, simply because the balance between the army books is so much better!

A few extra notes about 6th.

Infantry attacks on one rank. Two with spears. There is no horde.
Flanks are negated with anything that had a score of 5 of their unit size score. Each Infantry model counting as 1, cav as 2, monstrous infantry as 3.
There is an extra +1 in combat resolution for the side with the highest unit size score.
Having higher unit size score with units causing fear/terror and winning a combat resolution made the opponent automatically fail the leadership test.

So, essentially, Infantry was useful for their ranks only, well, mostly. Cav used as hammers in 5, good for flanking. And about everything else, well, competitive-minded it was a ranged warfare metagame. With mages, cannons, and bolt thowers everywhere.

At the risk of de-railing the topic. Try picking up a copy of storm of magic, its about 10-20$US on ebay and it throws some pretty cool and wacky stuff for you. Just my opinion. 6th edition FTW!

6th edition was fun, but 5th is...pretty bad. They call it hero hammer for a reason. My khorne lord had 10 attacks that didn't allow armour saves and caused models who died to blow up and cause more wounds. On and he was a level 3 necromancer. Because feth you.

Honestly, for all it's quirks 8th is still easily the best Warhammer has ever been.