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The new codex drops next week, and already, we know that things are changing for the Scions of Sanguinis. So, time to begin again the listbuilding, tactical discussion and theory-hammer how to get get the most from the boys in red in 7th Edition! Over the next week I'll endeavour to keep this OP updated with all the info we get, but for faster fixes, see the N&R thread here:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/618311.page

Changes from the 5th Edition Codexes:

Force Organisation and unit building:

Every unit gains Furious Charge
Dante and Seth moved to Lord of War slots
Sanguinary Priests moved to HQ
Death Company and DC Dreads moves to Elites, Librarian Dread to HQ

Sanguinary Guard now 5-10 in a squad
Baal Predators moved to HS
Assault Marines moved to Fast Attack
Only Terminators have Dedicated LR
Reclusiarch gone, Chaplains presumably moved to HQ
Honour Guard gone, replaced by Command Squad in Elites

Changes to key units:

Sanguinary Guard dropped to 33 ppm, and cap at 10 modelsmodels, Death Masks grant Fear for 1 ppm.
Tactical Squads given option for Heavy Flamer and Grab Gun, points presumably dropped in line with SM codex
DC Jump Packs cost 3 ppm
Priests now grant +1WS and FNP to their squad, base 60 points. Corbulo instead grants a 6" bubble of that.
Only Baals, Rhinos and Razors are Fast by default, others can buy it as an upgrade
Stormraven is FA
Blood Talons are Sx2 AP2 Shred
DC Dread now WS4 and -1A
Furioso Libby Staff not Specialist, so no Extra Attack with PF
LR can't DS




Changes to Characters:
Dante gains Eternal Warrior, and a S+2 AP2 not-unwieldy Axe

Mephiston has chaged a lot:
WS BS S T W I A L A
6 5 5 5 3 5 4 10 2+
Warlord trait: Adamantium will
Lvl 3
Special rules: FC, IC, Fleet, No Fear, Hypnotic Trance: Roll 2D6 if fighting in a challenge: If result is the L of the opponent or more, Mephiston hits on 2+.
Has one unique power: Blessing, he gets S10.
His sword is AP3

Sanguinor drops to a 4++, rerolls hits/wounds in challenges

Seth is LoW, gains Rampage, Rage and extra 2 hits on each roll of a 6

Astorath now IDs on a 6, otherwise has a 2-handed power axe

Lemartes is now a separate elites choice, possibly operating like Arjac (slotless if you take DC)




New Powers, Detachment and Warlord Traits:

Psychic powers are:

Primaris: Blessing. +D3 to A and I to psyker or target character at 12"
1. Malediction. Target unit at 12" takes a Moral test with -2
2. Blessing. Target unit at 18" gets Rage. If they had already that rule, they get +1A instead
3. Blessing. Psyker and his unit get 5++
4. Focussed witch fire. Target makes 2 T tests. Take one W for each failed test. If targed dies, place 5" blast with S4 and AP5.
5. Beam.12" S8, AP1 Lance
6"Blessing. Targe infantry unit, moves 12" in the psychic phase. No charging after this movement

Detachment is nice:
Mandatory 1 HQ, 1 Elite, 2 Troops
Optional: as usual, but 3 additioanl Elite (Total 4)
Special rule: +1I when charging, all the army, any turn.

Warlord traits are:

1. Warlod gets Rampage
2. Warlord gets +1 I
3. One warlord's weapong gets mastercrafted
4. Warlord gets Adamantium will
5. Warlord gets Descent of the Angles (Dante's trait)
6. 12" fearless bubble

BA Relics:
– Wings of Angels: Model gets jump infantry. He and his unit may re-roll scatter AND mishap table results. Intercepting units may only make snapshot when shooting at this unit.
– Crown of Angels: Model causes fear and the test must be made by -2 on moral check.
– Gallian's Stave: +2S, AP4, Melee, Concussive, Force, Channeled Rolls: Re-roll 1s in psychic tests - although additional 1s do damage the bearer (hard to read) (unclear what it means)
– Blade of Courage: S Bearer, AP2, Melee
– Veritas Vitae: Bearer gets an additional warlord trait from Strategic Traits
– Fury of Baal: 12″, S7, AP2, Pistol, Mastercrafted, Plasma weapon but NO overheating/gets hot






So, have at it!

With DC as elites, the detachment is presumably meant for DC. Hellooooo old furious charge on your entire army.

Yup, pulling the trigger on a Death Company army.

Nice revamp for another nice mellee army! Let's see how it goes. GW's doing lots of mellee stuff recently. Hope it doesn't get outshadowed by shooters that come afterwards.

Yeah, the shift to elite armies has worked nicely for me, it means I can cram the now-epic Sanguinary Guard, the Space Hulk Terminators and the Death Company into one army. I'm thinking the detachment might be best run doubled up, as although you would need 4 Tactical/Scout Squads, having the slots to fill up on Priests and dish out those nice Relics to a Captain could be good.

No Landspeeder Storm option for the Scouts?

I'm a little disappointed that Assault Squads are now Fast Attack units. Being regular Troop units in the previous edition made them fun to use IMO. But I guess that makes sense to have the BA codex more in line with the regular SM codex. So far the changes have been more hit than miss for me. I hope we can get some player-made lists soon!

If Death Company pick up scoring as well, that would make them pretty sweet jump infantry with 3+/5+ FNP. I'd even consider deep striking them with a wings of the angel character.

 Fango wrote:
No Landspeeder Storm option for the Scouts?

Great question id like to get answered

Seems like it would be interesting jinking a bunch of CC scouts in. a butt load of St5 attacks at Int5 seems like a great idea.

BattleCapIronblood wrote:I'm a little disappointed that Assault Squads are now Fast Attack units. Being regular Troop units in the previous edition made them fun to use IMO. But I guess that makes sense to have the BA codex more in line with the regular SM codex. So far the changes have been more hit than miss for me. I hope we can get some player-made lists soon!

I was of the same mind until I looked over what's in FA, nothing else worth taking besides ASMs and with the bonus of possibly 4 elite slots, I think we gained more than we lost.

PanzerLeader wrote:If Death Company pick up scoring as well, that would make them pretty sweet jump infantry with 3+/5+ FNP. I'd even consider deep striking them with a wings of the angel character.

According to the information out there right now, DC lost Black Rage so they can score now.

Desubot wrote:

 Fango wrote:
No Landspeeder Storm option for the Scouts?

Great question id like to get answered

Seems like it would be interesting jinking a bunch of CC scouts in. a butt load of St5 attacks at Int5 seems like a great idea.

I wonder if a list could be built around outflanking scouts that charge an objective, clear it and then have a beacon for support to come in the following turn. Certainly fluffy!

On a side note, in the massive clusterfeth that is the BA rumors thread someone posted a Dual-FOC DC Dread list that ended up with something like 8 dreadnoughts at 1500 points or something. It was nuts.

OP updated with new info from here:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/3270/618311.page

I can see CC Scouts having a nasty kick, 70 points for 5 with a Power Weapon is 12 S5 I5 attacks on the charge, and 4 from a power weapon of choice. A few squads of those Infiltrating might be a good way to fill out troops in former Jump Lists, or to unlock extra Detachments for more Priests and Elites.

 Paradigm wrote:
OP updated with new info from here:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/3270/618311.page

I can see CC Scouts having a nasty kick, 70 points for 5 with a Power Weapon is 12 S5 I5 attacks on the charge, and 4 from a power weapon of choice. A few squads of those Infiltrating might be a good way to fill out troops in former Jump Lists, or to unlock extra Detachments for more Priests and Elites.

That's what I was thinking, use them to pay the tax to unlock more of the sexiness. But you make a point with the number of attacks they can put out, I may have to try this and see how it goes.

If Scouts get acces to the LS Storm as a DT, I am sold. CC Scouts chargin' out of a Land Speeder. It's so weird I have to do it.

Just saw the scout bikes.

Could also be interesting.

sub 200 for 10 of them on bikes with a power weapon is a boat load of attacks. shove a jump priest???? for delicious FNP.


Edit: Blerb nvm they dont have CCW. so its not as good.

WellSpokenMan wrote:
If Scouts get acces to the LS Storm as a DT, I am sold. CC Scouts chargin' out of a Land Speeder. It's so weird I have to do it.

Unfortunately, it looks like they don't; apparently, no units from C:SM were added to the codex. It's still doable unbound, taking them from C:SM though.

 Paradigm wrote:

WellSpokenMan wrote:
If Scouts get acces to the LS Storm as a DT, I am sold. CC Scouts chargin' out of a Land Speeder. It's so weird I have to do it.

Unfortunately, it looks like they don't; apparently, no units from C:SM were added to the codex. It's still doable unbound, taking them from C:SM though.

That wont be happening ether as the LSS is a DT for normal scouts.. at which point you are taking normal scouts .

 Desubot wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:

WellSpokenMan wrote:
If Scouts get acces to the LS Storm as a DT, I am sold. CC Scouts chargin' out of a Land Speeder. It's so weird I have to do it.

Unfortunately, it looks like they don't; apparently, no units from C:SM were added to the codex. It's still doable unbound, taking them from C:SM though.

That wont be happening ether as the LSS is a DT for normal scouts.. at which point you are taking normal scouts .

Ah, damn. Thought they were still in FA.

Gabriel seth... WOW! he is gonna be quite a horde killer, and may even get a couple of TEQs with his rending chainsword(assuming it didn't changed, it is up to 9 attacks on the charge, mostly hitting on 3s, 6s are like necron tesla weapons in melee, granting 2 extra hits, wounding on 2s).... I can really see him killing a quite few TEQS before they get to strike back... Anyone knows does he still shatter people's pelvical bones/glances scout sentinels to death if they roll a one to hit vs him?

They will be once the base codex gets a 7th ed update.

The +1I on the charge for the detachment. Will that still apply if your using it as an ally? I doubt it, but I'm still fuzzy on 7th's Force Org craziness.

Do we need Centurions to be competitive?

 WellSpokenMan wrote:
The +1I on the charge for the detachment. Will that still apply if your using it as an ally? I doubt it, but I'm still fuzzy on 7th's Force Org craziness.

Allies being in the allied detachment slot, i would think not.

 Desubot wrote:

 WellSpokenMan wrote:
The +1I on the charge for the detachment. Will that still apply if your using it as an ally? I doubt it, but I'm still fuzzy on 7th's Force Org craziness.

Allies being in the allied detachment slot, i would think not.

By it you take the detachment itself with the minimum requirements, rather than an Allied Detachment as per the BRB, then yes, the bonus does apply. There's no limit in how many/what detachments you bring, so you could bring a CAD of SM, a CoF of Wolves and this new BA detachment in the same army, points permitting!

I think he was saying if his wolf allies would get the +1 int for having a BA detachment.

IF the rules for the BA detachment states that all models in THIS detachment gets the +1 then the wolves would not be getting anything.


Edit: In fact of that is the case. you could have a primary BA detachment with the +1 int and a secondary from say some kinda formation. that formation wouldnt get the +1 as its a different detachment.

Oh, I thought he meant did the BA still get the bonus if they weren't the primary detachment. Either way, I think all the variables have been thoroughly covered now!

Are there any confirmations on Death Company points cost, in particular how much to upgrade to Jump Packs? With all the news so far I may have to blow the dust off my Tactical-heavy BA army.

 Valkyrie wrote:
Are there any confirmations on Death Company points cost, in particular how much to upgrade to Jump Packs? With all the news so far I may have to blow the dust off my Tactical-heavy BA army.

3 points per model for jump packs,

 Desubot wrote:
I think he was saying if his wolf allies would get the +1 int for having a BA detachment.

IF the rules for the BA detachment states that all models in THIS detachment gets the +1 then the wolves would not be getting anything.


Edit: In fact of that is the case. you could have a primary BA detachment with the +1 int and a secondary from say some kinda formation. that formation wouldnt get the +1 as its a different detachment.

I was trying to make my question unambiguous, but I don't think I succeeded. I was talking about taking BA as an ally. It would be worth it to cram in another BA troop (I'd be taking an Elite anyway) to get the +1I.

Probably something like:

Whatever HQ I like.

Cassor

Tacticals

Death Company

I don't really need the Tacs, but I'd find room to give Cassor and the DC that Initiative boost.

Take scouts then. its cheaper and you can just chuck em in outflank or on a back field objective out of LOS.

 Desubot wrote:
Take scouts then. its cheaper and you can just chuck em in outflank or on a back field objective out of LOS.

I'll probably just have them hang with Azrael, but the thought of Scouts with a 4++ is interesting. I sometimes just toss Azzie in with a Tac squad anyway. The only drawback to switching the Tacs to BA is they wouldn't get the FNP boost when near an objective. I could use his Reserve shenanigans instead though.

 WellSpokenMan wrote:
Probably something like:
Whatever HQ I like.
Cassor
Tacticals
Death Company
I don't really need the Tacs, but I'd find room to give Cassor and the DC that Initiative boost.

How about CC-Scouts for some S5, I5-asskicking?
As Paradigm said, 70 points if you take a Power Weapon
And whatever HQ? Why not a Furioso Librarian?

Ps. I also heard you can take two weapons in an ASM-squad of five.. Let's hope that becomes true, because that would surely make up some interesting tactics.