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I'm tempted to finish a Black Templar force that I started ages ago. I'd be interested to see what people think of this list, and to give me some pointers on the last 70 points I have to spend. Right now this list relies on the ObSec LRCs to grab objectives while Sternguard rain from the sky and StormTalons cover anti-air and focus down whatever transports etc. need killing.

Right now I'm thinking that the last 70 points could potentially be put toward a Whirlwind just to harass backfield infantry. However, I'm not particularly jazzed by the idea so I'd love to get some other thoughts if you have them!

Captain 90

5 Initiates: multi-melta; meltagun 90
• Land Raider Crusader: multi-melta 260
5 Initiates: multi-melta; meltagun 90
• Land Raider Crusader: multi-melta 260

5 Sternguard Veterans: 3× combi-melta; 2× meltagun 170
• Drop Pod 35
5 Sternguard Veterans: 3× combi-melta; 2× meltagun 170
• Drop Pod 35
5 Sternguard Veterans: 3× combi-melta; 2× meltagun 170
• Drop Pod 35

Stormtalon Gunship: Skyhammer missile launcher 125
Stormtalon Gunship: Skyhammer missile launcher 125
Stormtalon Gunship: Skyhammer missile launcher 125

Personally I'd drop all the normal MGs from the sternguards; their special issue ammo is too good to pass and you already have 15 other meltas in the army.

That saves you 60 points; combined with the 70 you already had you can add a TFC which (IMO) is better than the Whirlwind and 30 pts to kit out your captain. If you're trying to keep your HQ fairly stock then I'd look into a Chaplain or EC to make a unit fearless.

Hope this helps.

If you have a min take a peek and comment on mine:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/626205.page

 phoenix darkus wrote:
Personally I'd drop all the normal MGs from the sternguards; their special issue ammo is too good to pass and you already have 15 other meltas in the army.

That saves you 60 points; combined with the 70 you already had you can add a TFC which (IMO) is better than the Whirlwind and 30 pts to kit out your captain. If you're trying to keep your HQ fairly stock then I'd look into a Chaplain or EC to make a unit fearless.

Hope this helps.

If you have a min take a peek and comment on mine:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/626205.page

I could see dropping the regular MGs in favor of all combis, possibly. My issue with dropping the meltas altogether is that I am then left with only 3 melta shots on the drop, which is much less reliable against the high-AV vehicles or high-wound MC's that the drop should hypothetically alpha strike. The Sternguard will be going against some of the toughest units in an opponent's army, meaning that the three melta shots would leave me vulnerable to a counter-attack that, frankly, Sternguard will most likely be unable to weather. I don't believe that Sternguard are quite the suicide unit that others view them as, but I do believe they can't survive a counter attack from the likes of an IK, Wraithknight, or what have you.

I think I do want to keep a fairly basic HQ, only because I can't quite kit one up enough to be threatening on his own with 30 points or so, and I don't have a melee unit to join him to as a force multiplier. Chaplain is not a bad idea though, that could actually work quite well. Adding a Chaplain and sticking with the Whirlwind puts me at 1845 points. What do you think?

I would change the feel of the list if it were me.

First and foremost, I would take 10-15man crusader squads, 10 initiates and 5 neophytes in the lrc's. This allows you to take advantage of the 16 model capacity.

I like Sternguard but they are a sulfide unit, 15 t4 power armor warriors are going to get wiped the turn after they arrive. Sure they can neutralize a threat but they are pricy so whatever they kill has to get their points back. I would drop them as you are it running a drop pod assualt list and therefore cannot force a target priority nightmare for your opponent.

I would then take two base chaplains with melta bombs. You could consider putting a regular melta in these squads as you can pop the transport then assault the contents.

The stormtalons are good choices if you don't want to use forgeworld but I feel the mortis dreadnought with dual Keres assault cannons is a better bet.

Each of the raiders is roughly 500-550 points including the squads so might be able to get a 3rd in their at 1750 with some kind of min crusader squad.

That's a ton of av 14 saturation and a ton of objective secured awesomeness.

I will stress that these are my opinions and you are free to do what you want with one of the harder space marine chapters to play effectively. Good luck, may the emperor be with you.

Epartalis wrote:
I would change the feel of the list if it were me.

First and foremost, I would take 10-15man crusader squads, 10 initiates and 5 neophytes in the lrc's. This allows you to take advantage of the 16 model capacity.

I like Sternguard but they are a sulfide unit, 15 t4 power armor warriors are going to get wiped the turn after they arrive. Sure they can neutralize a threat but they are pricy so whatever they kill has to get their points back. I would drop them as you are it running a drop pod assualt list and therefore cannot force a target priority nightmare for your opponent.

I would then take two base chaplains with melta bombs. You could consider putting a regular melta in these squads as you can pop the transport then assault the contents.

The stormtalons are good choices if you don't want to use forgeworld but I feel the mortis dreadnought with dual Keres assault cannons is a better bet.

Each of the raiders is roughly 500-550 points including the squads so might be able to get a 3rd in their at 1750 with some kind of min crusader squad.

That's a ton of av 14 saturation and a ton of objective secured awesomeness.

I will stress that these are my opinions and you are free to do what you want with one of the harder space marine chapters to play effectively. Good luck, may the emperor be with you.

Thanks for the advice!

In all honesty, I'd like to run the list the way you describe re: 15 man squads in LRC. However, ironically enough I don't think it plays to the strengths of the new templars. Much as it pains me to say it (and ignoring the fluff), BTs are not a good assault army. Dual chaplains would make them better, but still, they aren't exactly an elite melee unit. Sure, they'll be able to kill non-dedicated melee to some degree, but ultimately that's not saying all that much. That idea is fluffy, and one that I could see myself playing in a narrative campaign, but for standard semi-competitive battles I just don't think it has the teeth.

Now, I will say that I was slightly worried about running pods, flyers and LRCs. A part of me feels like it might be better to go all pods or to opt for LRC spam. I ultimately decided not to do that because I think that the LRCs, while good, also lack the punch to actually take down a lot of the more potent units in an opponents list. Drop pods solves this problem, but they are ultimately less reliable objective grabbers. Further, they are a lot more fragile and can't quite take a punch. Right now my list shoves quite a bit into the opponents backfield that is actually quite a threat, while leaving me with very solid ObSec units that can grab midfield objectives while being reliably hard to take down.

Still, I have never run a list like this and do worry about getting screwed on reserve rolls. If I get my turn one drop and it is unsupported by at least two stormtalons turn 2 then it will be easy to focus down the sternguard and then deal with the raiders relatively unmolested.

What do you think of this strategy? Is it putting my eggs in disparate baskets?

Yeah, dropping 5 marines in enemy territory is a suicide unit.

But you know what costs a total of 175 points?
A command squad in a drop pod with 4 meltaguns.

Just take that one unit as a sacrifice unit. drop it down first turn, 4 meltagun shots on the tank you want to go away. If they survive, they will still have their meltaguns and will actually be better in combat as well.

Ok, I mean another option I had been toying around with in my head was allied ultra marines for tigarius or just a chaplain again to buff a squad, assualt centurians in an lrc. They aren't the most point effecient Death Star out there I suppose but as far as melee goes they're about the best option without using bikes. s9 ap2 at initiative is pretty great, and only the best Death Stars will out melee you.

It would make the list a little less in your face turn 1 but that way you would have a unit capable of taking on a wraithknight or imperial knight and winning with minimal losses.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not terribly fluffy getting in bed with pyskers for the black Templar but that squads needs buffs in order to negate the fact that they don't have an invulnerable save. You could also go the route of thunder hammer storm shield terms.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Honor guard is another possibility, their banner gives a bubble of +1 attack so that with two squads of crusaders could be devastating amount of attacks. So what if they don't have the best weapons(the crusaders)? Hatred will let you get so many hits that you are going to force an unreasonable amount of saves on your opponent. The only problem I have with this is that there is no model kit for it, only the ultra marines version with Calgar, which sucks. So if you're going for wysiwyg then this doesn't work.

I think you will get screwed by reserve rolls. You need as much AA to come in and pull some heat off of the marines that landed the previous turn... honestly the LRCs aren't that threatening on the first turn because they won't get up to the enemy... so the units podding in will just die before they have support.

I think the idea of a single pod coming down and playing the suicide role is good, and maybe a TFC to hurt what's inside the transport they blow up?

Also, consider allying an Ordo Xenos Inquisitor for the Liber Heresius to give the land raider a Scout move at the start of the game?

I like dedicated LRCs a lot, especially as they put out a lot of medium firepower sitting still over an objective.

If you aren't going all-out with their contents (assault) then just min-size the unit inside to use it as a transport.. or even leave the squad outside in cover maybe as a 5-man las/plas squad?

For fliers, I like a big flier (Stormraven or Fire Raptor) escorted by a Stormtalon, that way they'll come in together.

Hope that helps.

Epartalis wrote:
Ok, I mean another option I had been toying around with in my head was allied ultra marines for tigarius or just a chaplain again to buff a squad, assualt centurians in an lrc. They aren't the most point effecient Death Star out there I suppose but as far as melee goes they're about the best option without using bikes. s9 ap2 at initiative is pretty great, and only the best Death Stars will out melee you.

It would make the list a little less in your face turn 1 but that way you would have a unit capable of taking on a wraithknight or imperial knight and winning with minimal losses.

Well, I'd be up for this idea, except that it would be a major point sink and I'm not sure it would be easy to recuperate the investment with that unit.

Splashing centurions, with just a bare-bones squad and an LRC, would be a minimum of 440 points. That unit would definitely be a good melee unit against heavy armour and some other melee units, but I'd have to lose either two Stormtalons and a Sternguard unit or two Sternguard units and a Stormtalon. In return, I'd have a situationally good melee unit that will likely only be able to reliably kill one unit per game (figuring turn two assault if all goes well and then enemy either avoiding the footslogging Cents or spending two turns embarking then disembarking which might leave me with limited options).

In all honesty, if I was going to run Centurions then I would probably run GravCents. While more expensive, they could at least reliably take down one unit a turn and be useful for the whole game. The issue there, of course, is that they also require a major investment (though not as much as the Assault Cents/LRC). I was actually tempted to include GravCents, but was turned off by the fact that I can't buff them with Psykers if I'm running pure Templar. That means they are at a severe disadvantage when facing enemies in cover, because they do not have any ability to teleport to unsecured angles or to ignore cover/reroll misses. Drop Pod Sternguard and Stormtalons can also suffer from these disadvantages, but their enhanced maneuverability makes up for some of them, and ultimately I think they are better self-supported units.

I could be convinced to run GravCents, but I'd need to know how to support them so they aren't wasting firepower and ensuring I get more value from them than what I am otherwise missing out on.

I think the idea of starting las-plas crusaders outside of the LRC is a great idea. To me, it seems that your list is lacking in immediate firepower. You have a decent amount of shooting once your fliers come in and your LRC's are in range, but you need to be able to apply more pressure earlier-on. I'd use the las-plas idea, and drop one of the stormtalons for either a relic sicaran battle tank if you can use forgeworld, or maybe a predator/rifleman dread/devastator squad if you can't.