Those Great Companies

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**Gashrog**

The retcon actually happened over a decade ago with the Horus Heresy CCG/Artbooks, before the novel series started. I seem to recall one of the Black Library authors saying they had an 'oops' moment around the time that Know No Fear was being written, prior to that point none of the authors had thought to ask if they should be using the larger numbers, and Alan Merritt GW's head of IP (who was credited as the author for the artbook) hadn't noticed they weren't using them..

It's pretty easy to tell if numbers are old or new, the old numbers were 10k for the average legion and 25k for the smurfs, the new numbers were 100k for the average legion and 250k for the smurfs, so if the numbers are anywhere close to the former they are wrong.

**Computron**

It really mucks up the name Thousand Sons which I assume was named before the idea of legions came along.

It also mucks up the 13 companies of the Space Wolves.

They keep fluffing with the numbers without worrying how it affects other bits of fluff. I see Chronus isn't in charge of 50 marines anymore - it's been left open.

**Spetulhu**

Also, going off of this, that means that there would probably be at LEAST a hundred Space Marines outside of the Great Companies commanding the ships, which brings the numbers of the Space Wolves up even more.

Ofc, commanding a ship doesn't require quite as much of you as being able to fight in enemy territory for a couple of years like Wolf Scouts sometimes do. I'd imagine many Chapters (SW included) assign "imperfect" marines to these duties - marines that require medical attention every day, or can't fully use the finer systems in their PA because of wounds etc. Just as the marines assigned as honor guards to the head of a Navigator House might not be capable of staying in the field for a year, but are perfectly capable of looking impressive and shooting down any number of thugs attacking their charge. They're still doing honorable service for the Chapter, and they still have a chance to die with honor.

**jareddm**

Computron wrote:
It really mucks up the name Thousand Sons which I assume was named before the idea of legions came along.

Actually, the novel makes it clear that the name of the legion was how many marines were left alive when Magnus was found.

**Orblivion**

Computron wrote:
It really mucks up the name Thousand Sons which I assume was named before the idea of legions came along.

It also mucks up the 13 companies of the Space Wolves.

They keep fluffing with the numbers without worrying how it affects other bits of fluff. I see Chronus isn't in charge of 50 marines anymore - it's been left open.

Not really, every legion was free to organize itself however it wanted during the Great Crusade, they didn't necessarily follow the 100 marines to a company rule of the Codex Astartes. So it still makes perfect sense that the Space Wolves would have been organized into 12 huge, or great

, companies.

EDIT: jareddm answered the other part

**Asherian Command**

Orblivion wrote:
Computron wrote:
It really mucks up the name Thousand Sons which I assume was named before the idea of legions came along.

It also mucks up the 13 companies of the Space Wolves.

They keep fluffing with the numbers without worrying how it affects other bits of fluff. I see Chronus isn't in charge of 50 marines anymore - it's been left open.

Not really, every legion was free to organize itself however it wanted during the Great Crusade, they didn't necessarily follow the 100 marines to a company rule of the Codex Astartes. So it still makes perfect sense that the Space Wolves would have been organized into 12 huge, or great , companies.

EDIT: jareddm answered the other part

They had different naming conventions.

Such as how Ultramarines called their Lord Commanders, Chapter Masters.

Each company was deployed differently and called different things. And each had their own versions of captains.

I mean at the time GW didn't know how big a number really is.

But that is very much like what the dark ages were like.

**Orblivion**

Asherian Command wrote:
snip

Well here we have more inconsistencies from GW, because I don't think all the legions followed that structure. In Fear to Tread it is noted that all 120,000 Blood Angels from all 300 of their companies are present when they depart for Signus. There is no mention of battalions at all, and obviously with only 300 companies to spread around 120,000 marines there are quite a bit more than 100 per company. Also Raldoron is both Chapter Master and First Captain, with Chapter Master for the Blood Angels fulfilling more of an advisory role to Sanguinius in addition to his responsibilities as First Captain.

**Computron**

Orblivion wrote:
In Fear to Tread it is noted that all 120,000 Blood Angels from all 300 of their companies are present when they depart for Signus. There is no mention of battalions at all, and obviously with only 300 companies to spread around 120,000 marines there are quite a bit more than 100 per company.

Maybe a company here is equivalent to a battalion.
We're also assuming that every company is the same size. Some companies may be considerably smaller and be independent armour companies for instance.

While it's debatable, 40k chapters could have an establishment strength of 1200 marines or more. That would give roughly 100 chapters worth of marines to the Blood Angel's legion using the 40k format (which is wrong I know).
My point being that there are different ways to look at the company structure for their legion. An infantry company would have more marines than an armour company for instance.

If the "company" were actually a battalion sized unit (a half chapter) then the numbers in a company could vary from 600 down to say 200 for a specialist tank company. You can probably tell I don't regard the idea of legion tanks being parcelled out amongst the regular line companies as viable. It also doesn't mesh with the established concept of legions having their own tank units - which would not be kept at company level.

**Orblivion**

Computron wrote:
Orblivion wrote:
In Fear to Tread it is noted that all 120,000 Blood Angels from all 300 of their companies are present when they depart for Signus. There is no mention of battalions at all, and obviously with only 300 companies to spread around 120,000 marines there are quite a bit more than 100 per company.

Maybe a company here is equivalent to a battalion.
We're also assuming that every company is the same size. Some companies may be considerably smaller and be independent armour companies for instance.

While it's debatable, 40k chapters could have an establishment strength of 1200 marines or more. That would give roughly 100 chapters worth of marines to the Blood Angel's legion using the 40k format (which is wrong I know).
My point being that there are different ways to look at the company structure for their legion. An infantry company would have more marines than an armour company for instance.

If the "company" were actually a battalion sized unit (a half chapter) then the numbers in a company could vary from 600 down to say 200 for a specialist tank company. You can probably tell I don't regard the idea of legion tanks being parcelled out amongst the regular line companies as viable. It also doesn't mesh with the established concept of legions having their own tank units - which would not be kept at company level.

That's kind of my whole point though, they were all different. The legions didn't have to follow any template, they were organized in whichever way their primarch saw fit. So the 70,000 marines split into 13 great companies still works, because that is apparently what Leman Russ wanted.

**Computron**

Orblivion wrote:
Computron wrote:
It really mucks up the name Thousand Sons which I assume was named before the idea of legions came along.

It also mucks up the 13 companies of the Space Wolves.

They keep fluffing with the numbers without worrying how it affects other bits of fluff. I see Chronus isn't in charge of 50 marines anymore - it's been left open.

Not really, every legion was free to organize itself however it wanted during the Great Crusade,

That's not what comes across though. There were variations in structure, but the basic 100 marine company was the core with some form of chapter, great company structure above that. It loosely fits with the concept of the British army where a chapter is the equivalent of a regiment which is then broken down into two battalions. Each battalion then consists of several companies of one sort or another.
In that situation a legion would be equivalent to a division with them all being part of the Space Marine Corps.

they didn't necessarily follow the 100 marines to a company rule of the Codex Astartes. So it still makes perfect sense that the Space Wolves would have been organized into 12 huge, or great , companies.

EDIT: jareddm answered the other part

Always possible. With the FW Horus Heresy books I'd have expected each legion organisation to be shown instead of the generic structure (shown above) which may or may not actually be of any use.

**Orblivion**

Computron wrote:
Orblivion wrote:
Computron wrote:
It really mucks up the name Thousand Sons which I assume was named before the idea of legions came along.

It also mucks up the 13 companies of the Space Wolves.

They keep fluffing with the numbers without worrying how it affects other bits of fluff. I see Chronus isn't in charge of 50 marines anymore - it's been left open.

Not really, every legion was free to organize itself however it wanted during the Great Crusade,

That's not what comes across though. There were variations in structure, but the basic 100 marine company was the core with some form of chapter, great company structure above that. It loosely fits with the concept of the British army where a chapter is the equivalent of a regiment which is then broken down into two battalions. Each battalion then consists of several companies of one sort or another.
In that situation a legion would be equivalent to a division with them all being part of the Space Marine Corps.

Is this information from Forgeworld's HH series, because this isn't how it is described at all in any of the Black Library HH novels that I've read.

**dusara217**

Computron wrote:
Orblivion wrote:
Computron wrote:
It really mucks up the name Thousand Sons which I assume was named before the idea of legions came along.

It also mucks up the 13 companies of the Space Wolves.

They keep fluffing with the numbers without worrying how it affects other bits of fluff. I see Chronus isn't in charge of 50 marines anymore - it's been left open.

Not really, every legion was free to organize itself however it wanted during the Great Crusade,

That's not what comes across though. There were variations in structure, but the basic 100 marine company was the core with some form of chapter, great company structure above that. It loosely fits with the concept of the British army where a chapter is the equivalent of a regiment which is then broken down into two battalions. Each battalion then consists of several companies of one sort or another.
In that situation a legion would be equivalent to a division with them all being part of the Space Marine Corps.

they didn't necessarily follow the 100 marines to a company rule of the Codex Astartes. So it still makes perfect sense that the Space Wolves would have been organized into 12 huge, or great , companies.

EDIT: jareddm answered the other part

Always possible. With the FW Horus Heresy books I'd have expected each legion organisation to be shown instead of the generic structure (shown above) which may or may not actually be of any use.

Every Primarch had a different preference for organization. It has never been stated that there was a standardized Space Marine Company pre-Codex Astartes. The original organization of the Legions is probably what you're thinking of, which was changed by each Primarch as they saw fit. It wasn't a thing where the Emprah was like "yeah, EVERYBODY DO THIS OR DIE!!! But you can change the names if you want". He just organized his original Legions, but after that each Primarch decided what went. For instance, the Lion modelled the Dark Angels after the Order, which is where the layers of secrecy thing came from in the Dark Angels lore.

**jareddm**

Would just like to remind everyone on the definition of notional that is being used in the Strategic Disposition image.

no·tion·al
adjective
1.
existing only in theory or as a suggestion or idea.

Meaning it's not the be-all-end-all exactly how the legions existed. It's the broadest possible presentation of capturing the structure of as many legions as possible. And other than Guilliman, Dorn, or Fulgrim, I don't know of too many primarchs who were very big on theory to begin with. It's also important to remember that the FW HH books are expressly being told from the perspective of a historian in the Post-Scouring era (though not that long after, because the author was alive during the Heresy). This means they only have the academic accounts and not necessarily the organization that changed both on the Primarch's whims and by the needs of the Great Crusade.

**Gashrog**

dusara217 wrote:
It has never been stated that there was a standardized Space Marine Company pre-Codex Astartes. The original organization of the Legions is probably what you're thinking of, which was changed by each Primarch as they saw fit. It wasn't a thing where the Emprah was like "yeah, EVERYBODY DO THIS OR DIE!!! But you can change the names if you want".

"The structure of a Space Marine army varied slightly from Legion to legion, but at the core of all of them was the company of one hundred fighting men led by a captain. Companies were usually grouped into battalions, normally five companies strong and led by a lieutenant commander. Battalions are brigaded in pairs, as a regiment of one thousand warrios. These were variously known as 'regiments', 'wings', 'chapters' or 'great companies'"
~ Collected Visions (first edition) page 114

Black Library may have ignored it, but it WAS stated.

**dusara217**

Gashrog wrote:
dusara217 wrote:
It has never been stated that there was a standardized Space Marine Company pre-Codex Astartes. The original organization of the Legions is probably what you're thinking of, which was changed by each Primarch as they saw fit. It wasn't a thing where the Emprah was like "yeah, EVERYBODY DO THIS OR DIE!!! But you can change the names if you want".

"The structure of a Space Marine army varied slightly from Legion to legion, but at the core of all of them was the company of one hundred fighting men led by a captain. Companies were usually grouped into battalions, normally five companies strong and led by a lieutenant commander. Battalions are brigaded in pairs, as a regiment of one thousand warrios. These were variously known as 'regiments', 'wings', 'chapters' or 'great companies'"
~ Collected Visions (first edition) page 114

Black Library may have ignored it, but it WAS stated.

Explain GW's thing of originally having 13 Great Companies within the Space Wolves, and then having them filled with Packs and that being just about the only organization the Space Wolves received? The Space Wolves have maintained the same organization for 10k years, as is stated in the Codex Space Wolves.

Also, what I said was in a GW publication; therefore it is canon.

**Gashrog**

Because GW couldn't organize a pissup in a brewery.

GW may have contradicted the statement, but that's not the quite the same thing as the statement never having been made.

And the Horus Heresy artbook was published by Black Library which is a division of Games Workshop, so it's canon too

(the author was actually Alan Merritt, GW's Head of IP)

**jareddm**

Gashrog wrote:
dusara217 wrote:
It has never been stated that there was a standardized Space Marine Company pre-Codex Astartes. The original organization of the Legions is probably what you're thinking of, which was changed by each Primarch as they saw fit. It wasn't a thing where the Emprah was like "yeah, EVERYBODY DO THIS OR DIE!!! But you can change the names if you want".

"The structure of a Space Marine army varied slightly from Legion to legion, but at the core of all of them was the company of one hundred fighting men led by a captain. Companies were usually grouped into battalions, normally five companies strong and led by a lieutenant commander. Battalions are brigaded in pairs, as a regiment of one thousand warrios. These were variously known as 'regiments', 'wings', 'chapters' or 'great companies'"
~ Collected Visions (first edition) page 114

Black Library may have ignored it, but it WAS stated.

Very interesting...allow me to respond with a quote from Visions of Heresy ie. Collected Visions (second edition), which was written with the explicit purpose of correcting and updating Collected Visions.

"The structure of a Space Marine army varied slightly from Legion to Legion, but at the core of all of them was the company of fighting men led by a captain. Companies were usually grouped into battalions, normally five companies strong and led by a lieutenant commander. Battalions were brigaded together in pairs. These were variously known as 'regiments', 'wings', 'chapters', or 'great companies.'"
-Visions of Heresy page 48

Notice something missing? They've gone out of their way to remove the reference to 100 marines per company. It is a direct ret-con.

Edit: This one was written by Alan Merrett too.

**Computron**

So Visions was "corrected" by making unit structure more ambiguous. Kind of like Chronus no longer leading 50 marines in the Ultramarines armoury.

SIlly me, I thought updated material was meant to make things clearer, provide more detail - maybe that's why I don't bother with black library anymore.

**Asherian Command**

Computron wrote:
So Visions was "corrected" by making unit structure more ambiguous. Kind of like Chronus no longer leading 50 marines in the Ultramarines armoury.

SIlly me, I thought updated material was meant to make things clearer, provide more detail - maybe that's why I don't bother with black library anymore.

Well considering that the Black Library can rarely agree on anything. Take everything from the Black Library with a grain of salt. Forgeworld posted that and they are generally better and than the black library. Especially when they can't even agree how many custodes there are in existence.... Or how strong a Custode is....

If they can't agree on how strong a space marine is either thats when I seriously doubt everything from the Black library is entirely canon.

**jareddm**

Computron wrote:
So Visions was "corrected" by making unit structure more ambiguous. Kind of like Chronus no longer leading 50 marines in the Ultramarines armoury.
SIlly me, I thought updated material was meant to make things clearer, provide more detail - maybe that's why I don't bother with black library anymore.

You yourself just quoted an similar change made to a codex. Calling out Black Library as the problem is absurd because it's clearly the way things are done across GW. When a piece of lore is reprinted word for word in a newer source with very specific words or phrases removed, I can't possibly see how this can be taken as anything but a ret-con, that more ambiguity and flexibility was what GW wanted, not hard facts.

In my example, it was to show that companies during the Great Crusade/HH weren't 100 marines, but instead varied. In your example, it was to remove a reference to dedicated drivers and tank operators, or at least the exact number of them.

Asherian Command wrote:
If they can't agree on how strong a space marine is either thats when I seriously doubt everything from the Black library is entirely canon.

You have an example of this across the same character? Because it'd be a horrible fallacy to actually think that all space marines are supposed to be equally strong, or that chapters are all equal, or even that the perception of their actions aren't being influenced by whoever the narrator is.

**Asherian Command**

You have an example of this across the same character? Because it'd be a horrible fallacy to actually think that all space marines are supposed to be equally strong, or that chapters are all equal, or even that the perception of their actions aren't being influenced by whoever the narrator is.

well We have some characters explained in certain books as ripping someone in half while a space marine has a lot of trouble through out it describing space marine powers. Sometimes space marines are described as 10 feet tall, or 7 feet tall. Or some guardsmen are able to kill a chaos space marine with a vine. Or a space marine's bolter is described as caseless or has cases.

Or how a Custode is described as more powerful than a space marine, yet in some books they die like wheat in a field.

We have certain things that don't make any sense.

I doubt certain authors and i trust certain authors. CS Goto and Ward. I usually deem as propagandists.

And Dan Abnett and Aaron as trustworthy.

You have to take all those publications from the Black Library with a grain of salt. If you don't know what I mean then you need to find out why.... Lyanta describes it pretty well....

"With Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000, the notion of canon is a fallacy. [...] Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 exist as tens of thousands of overlapping realities in the imaginations of games developers, writers, readers and gamers. None of those interpretations is wrong."
-- Gav Thorpe

"It all stems from the assumption that there's a binding contract between author and reader to adhere to some nonexistent subjective construct or 'true' representation of the setting. There is no such contract, and no such objective truth."
-- Andy Hoare

"There is no canon. There's a variety of sources, many of which conflict, but every single one is a lens through which we can see the 40K setting."
-- Aaron Dembski-Bowden

Basically, yeah. In a way, we all have our own "canon" - and what we choose to add to it is up to us.

As for the instances discussed in the thread - like BaxicanX said, a lot can be explained/excused with liberal use of artistic leeway. For example, maybe an Ogryn beat up a Commissar because he executed a Guardsman (or another Ogryn!) that Ogryn favoured. Maybe Kaurava's strategic value are its Baneblade production capabilities. Maybe the Guard garrison is there because it's the leftover from some crusade that swept through the system a few generations ago, liberating it from the Orks (which were never fully eradicated, as the game says). Maybe, Kaurava's Guard regiment is just really huge - and for what it's worth, neither the Space Marines nor the Adepta Sororitas are geared for attrition warfare. And so on.

Not saying that you can explain everything without throwing up some conflict, mind you. The more you go into detail, the more you discover the little differences in the various writers' personal version of the setting. Consistency simply isn't mandatory in this franchise - indeed, according to ADB, some authors even seem to frown upon "copying" others' ideas too closely. *shrugs*

Basically take everything with a massive grain of salt. As they are different interpretations of that 40k universe.

To some space marines are weak and die easily. To others like me, space marines are super humans, in the truer sense of the word. But even super humans have limits.

**jareddm**

Asherian Command wrote:
To some space marines are weak and die easily. To others like me, space marines are super humans, in the truer sense of the word. But even super humans have limits.

And you can have those beliefs, but as you said here:

Asherian Command wrote:
If they can't agree on how strong a space marine is either thats when I seriously doubt everything from the Black library is entirely canon.

This is not something that they can't agree on. This is something they've agreed SHOULDN'T be agreed on. It was a conscious decision to allow for multiple interpretations and viewpoints. By saying you're going to discredit Black Library for a conscious decision rather than a mistake is simply ignoring evidence because you don't like it. The difference is not everything in 40k is an interpretation. In that same ADB article you quote, he mentions that there are still facts in the universe. The Ultramarines are blue, guardsmen carry lasguns. These are not arguable. The grey area is what is a "fact" and what is an "interpretations". Any sort of power level comparison for me will always be an interpretation. What I'm arguing is when it's not a different source. It's the same source printed exactly the same with a conscious effort to remove one specific part of it, as in the examples I previously mentioned. These are not different interpretations. They are a change to a fact.

**Asherian Command**

This is not something that they can't agree on. This is something they've agreed SHOULDN'T be agreed on. It was a conscious decision to allow for multiple interpretations and viewpoints. By saying you're going to discredit Black Library for a conscious decision rather than a mistake is simply ignoring evidence because you don't like it. The difference is not everything in 40k is an interpretation. In that same ADB article you quote, he mentions that there are still facts in the universe. The Ultramarines are blue, guardsmen carry lasguns. These are not arguable. The grey area is what is a "fact" and what is an "interpretations". Any sort of power level comparison for me will always be an interpretation. What I'm arguing is when it's not a different source. It's the same source printed exactly the same with a conscious effort to remove one specific part of it, as in the examples I previously mentioned. These are not different interpretations. They are a change to a fact.

What no.

I am merely discreditting alot of it because I take it with a grain of salt.

There are inconsistencies everywhere. I cannot say that just because this person created something I will not like them. But if it conflicts with already established fluff or lore, I can discredit it and promptly ignore it.

The thing is that when people say well this company is this size and then this size. Where there are multiple sources that conflict with each other.

See the numbers bit everyone will disagree with.

But things like the black library do not change those facts. Those are from the black library. Which is an intrepretation of the things from the codexes and everything. The Black Library should be taken with a grain of salt.

If it is created by GW Directly, then it can't be argued. But most stuff isn't.

**Psienesis**

Even GW's self-published stuff changes.

**Asherian Command**

Psienesis wrote:
Even GW's self-published stuff changes.

True. Which I am not arguing against.