Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

lliu wrote:

 skoffs wrote:
Highly doubtful.
This is the same guy whose "reliable" source said the codex was coming out the week of Halloween.
I mean, FFS, he didn't even mention anything about the formation that was talked about in the latest Sheild of Baal stuff!
I'm done listening to anyone who has a bad track record... so in other words, I'm hanging out for more word from Lords Of Wargaming.

Mh. Fun to look at, though, and the Alliance on Asphodex was right.

Don't know them. Were they right (as in, information they gave first, before anyone else), or were they just repeating information they heard from somewhere else that turned out to be correct?

Kangodo wrote:
I
5. You may choose to re-roll failed Morale, Pinning and Fear.
Why would I want this Trait if they are all Ld10; does this mean the Necron-Ld will be changed or is this just for losing CC?

Because when you do fail a LD 10 pinning test, it really sucks. And when you're facing Eldar and taking 3 or 4 pinning tests a turn, even LD 10 starts to fail you. I like it.

Kangodo wrote:
I have Exterminatus and just added everything to BattleScribe.

Ah, so it's you who caused all my lists to glitch out and remove all the selections.

Thanks.

changemod wrote:

Kangodo wrote:
I have Exterminatus and just added everything to BattleScribe.

Ah, so it's you who caused all my lists to glitch out and remove all the selections.

Thanks.

That happened because the underlying organization of the codex changed with the new Dynasties

That happened because I needed to put all entries to the background so I could make links.
Otherwise I couldn't make formations, unless I made the file so big that it would crash mobile devices.

It was smarter if we did this two years ago from the start, but we couldn't predict Formations like we have now.
I gave a warning in the BS thread, but again: Sorry, I had no choice
If there was any other way I would've done it cause this took a couple of hours of work :(

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

Kangodo wrote:
Yes, sometimes your 300 point model should refrain from going into CC with a specific unit.
That is what we call 'tactics', or do you charge your Riptides into a unit of Death Company?

Is a Riptide designed exclusively for melee combat and completely useless and not making its points back every round that it isn't in melee combat?

And for the record, I lick my lips hourly waiting for the day that Wraiths get crapped on in the new codex. Everything else in the codex could stay the same and I'd still be happy if Wraiths were nerfed.

Because Wraiths need a nerf? Wraiths are fine as is.

No.

Toughness 4, 2 wounds with a 3+/3++ save and 3 WS4 strength 6 rending attacks base, on top of a fearless 12'' moving chassis that also ignores terrain/intervening models... and all costing 5ppm points less then naked terminators, is not "fine".

'Sfine, got some weird stuff like one 2000 point list that had nothing selected but said "4315/2000 points" though.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

Kangodo wrote:
Yes, sometimes your 300 point model should refrain from going into CC with a specific unit.
That is what we call 'tactics', or do you charge your Riptides into a unit of Death Company?

Is a Riptide designed exclusively for melee combat and completely useless and not making its points back every round that it isn't in melee combat?

And for the record, I lick my lips hourly waiting for the day that Wraiths get crapped on in the new codex. Everything else in the codex could stay the same and I'd still be happy if Wraiths were nerfed.

Because Wraiths need a nerf? Wraiths are fine as is.

No.

Toughness 4, 2 wounds with a 3+/3++ save and 3 WS4 strength 6 rending attacks base, on top of a fearless 12'' moving chassis that also ignores terrain/intervening models... and all costing 5ppm points less then naked terminators, is not "fine".

Necrons get some good cost deals since they don't have psychic powers. Instead of comparing wraiths to terminators compare wraiths + d lords to centurions + draigo + chapter masters + invisibiliy + gate + etc.

Also, keep in mind that wraiths are no where near the top of melee anymore. Bullyboyz, TWC, and Dreadknights are dominating that spot.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

Kangodo wrote:
Yes, sometimes your 300 point model should refrain from going into CC with a specific unit.
That is what we call 'tactics', or do you charge your Riptides into a unit of Death Company?

Is a Riptide designed exclusively for melee combat and completely useless and not making its points back every round that it isn't in melee combat?

And for the record, I lick my lips hourly waiting for the day that Wraiths get crapped on in the new codex. Everything else in the codex could stay the same and I'd still be happy if Wraiths were nerfed.

Because Wraiths need a nerf? Wraiths are fine as is.

No.

Toughness 4, 2 wounds with a 3+/3++ save and 3 WS4 strength 6 rending attacks base, on top of a fearless 12'' moving chassis that also ignores terrain/intervening models... and all costing 5ppm points less then naked terminators, is not "fine".

Terminators are already overcosted as is, along with things like Bully Boyz and TWC being the go-to melee units, not to mention Wraiths are VERY vulnerable to Instant Death. Wraiths are fine.

Dreadknights aren't good against Wraiths, in my experience. Might be a Rock Paper Scissors thing.

col_impact wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

Kangodo wrote:
Yes, sometimes your 300 point model should refrain from going into CC with a specific unit.
That is what we call 'tactics', or do you charge your Riptides into a unit of Death Company?

Is a Riptide designed exclusively for melee combat and completely useless and not making its points back every round that it isn't in melee combat?

And for the record, I lick my lips hourly waiting for the day that Wraiths get crapped on in the new codex. Everything else in the codex could stay the same and I'd still be happy if Wraiths were nerfed.

Because Wraiths need a nerf? Wraiths are fine as is.

No.

Toughness 4, 2 wounds with a 3+/3++ save and 3 WS4 strength 6 rending attacks base, on top of a fearless 12'' moving chassis that also ignores terrain/intervening models... and all costing 5ppm points less then naked terminators, is not "fine".

Necrons get some good cost deals since they don't have psychic powers. Instead of comparing wraiths to terminators compare wraiths + d lords to centurions + draigo + chapter masters + invisibiliy + gate + etc.

Also, keep in mind that wraiths are no where near the top of melee anymore. Bullyboyz, TWC, and Dreadknights are dominating that spot.

Yea, compare a 400 point unit to a 1000+ point one.
Obviously they arent on the same power level.

Not saying that wraiths are better, or the cent star isnt op.
Just pointing out its a bad comparison.

 ninjafiredragon wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

Kangodo wrote:
Yes, sometimes your 300 point model should refrain from going into CC with a specific unit.
That is what we call 'tactics', or do you charge your Riptides into a unit of Death Company?

Is a Riptide designed exclusively for melee combat and completely useless and not making its points back every round that it isn't in melee combat?

And for the record, I lick my lips hourly waiting for the day that Wraiths get crapped on in the new codex. Everything else in the codex could stay the same and I'd still be happy if Wraiths were nerfed.

Because Wraiths need a nerf? Wraiths are fine as is.

No.

Toughness 4, 2 wounds with a 3+/3++ save and 3 WS4 strength 6 rending attacks base, on top of a fearless 12'' moving chassis that also ignores terrain/intervening models... and all costing 5ppm points less then naked terminators, is not "fine".

Necrons get some good cost deals since they don't have psychic powers. Instead of comparing wraiths to terminators compare wraiths + d lords to centurions + draigo + chapter masters + invisibiliy + gate + etc.

Also, keep in mind that wraiths are no where near the top of melee anymore. Bullyboyz, TWC, and Dreadknights are dominating that spot.

Yea, compare a 400 point unit to a 1000+ point one.
Obviously they arent on the same power level.

Not saying that wraiths are better, or the cent star isnt op.
Just pointing out its a bad comparison.

It is a good comparison. Psychic powers like death stars so that they net a bigger return on their buff. Feel free to even out the points with 2 wraith wings with attached D Lords to compare.

When discussing Necron Wraiths vs other armies you have to discuss the availability of buffs. Necrons do not have psychic buffs so we get some things cheaper up front. Wraith are a non-player in today's meta, so obviously they aren't cheap enough!

psychic powers are unreliable, can hurt your own guys, and got a huge *HUGE* nerf in 7th.

compared to cheap, 100% reliable units, that dont even need powers, its not even a close trade off to make.

for what they are, wraiths are very undercosted. same with MSS, very undercosted for what it does. necrons have 0 holes in what they can do, for a supposedly bad CC army, MSS makes you equal to or better then anything you might face in CC.

 easysauce wrote:
psychic powers are unreliable, can hurt your own guys, and got a huge *HUGE* nerf in 7th.

Well, that's not exactly true, is it?

Oh certainly, taking a single solitary Psyker took a big hit, but dedicated Psyker armies with a lot of dice to toss around are horrendous for a Necron player to deal with. Buffs you can do nothing about pop up all over the place.

Some of them are really nasty to be able to plonk onto any unit you like too. Other buffs usually are mitigated by predictably being on specific models.

 easysauce wrote:
psychic powers are unreliable, can hurt your own guys, and got a huge *HUGE* nerf in 7th.

compared to cheap, 100% reliable units, that dont even need powers, its not even a close trade off to make.

for what they are, wraiths are very undercosted. same with MSS, very undercosted for what it does. necrons have 0 holes in what they can do, for a supposedly bad CC army, MSS makes you equal to or better then anything you might face in CC.

There is lots of undercosted stuff in 40k. Every army has undercosted stuff. Are wraiths even worth getting in a huff over? Nope.

 easysauce wrote:
for what they are, wraiths are very undercosted. same with MSS, very undercosted for what it does. necrons have 0 holes in what they can do, for a supposedly bad CC army, MSS makes you equal to or better then anything you might face in CC.

But MSS doesn't cover the melee-weakness of Necrons.
It allows them to bite back a bit harder, you are still going to wipe out that unit and in most cases MSS doesn't even work when you are being charged.
They hit back harder than Tau but that's why Tau compensate that with even more firepower.
Personally I wouldn't mind a nerf in CC if that means we'll get closer to Tau-shooting levels.

Unless you are talking about Destroyer Lords with Canoptek Wraiths and his MSS.
But in those combats you are going to win anyway, MSS just reduces your own losses.

Conclusion: MSS let's an already winning squad suffer less casualties and let's a losing squad deal a bit more damage before dying.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
No.
Toughness 4, 2 wounds with a 3+/3++ save and 3 WS4 strength 6 rending attacks base, on top of a fearless 12'' moving chassis that also ignores terrain/intervening models... and all costing 5ppm points less then naked terminators, is not "fine".

Why isn't it "fine"?
Comparing it to Terminators is a bad idea, you should probably compare C:SM to Necrons as a whole.
And guess what? C:SM is performing better than Necrons in tournaments.

By your logic Terminators should be nerfed because they are better than Lychguard with their Inv, Deep Strike, Transports and everything.

col_impact wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
psychic powers are unreliable, can hurt your own guys, and got a huge *HUGE* nerf in 7th.

compared to cheap, 100% reliable units, that dont even need powers, its not even a close trade off to make.

for what they are, wraiths are very undercosted. same with MSS, very undercosted for what it does. necrons have 0 holes in what they can do, for a supposedly bad CC army, MSS makes you equal to or better then anything you might face in CC.

There is lots of undercosted stuff in 40k. Every army has undercosted stuff. Are wraiths even worth getting in a huff over? Nope.

Honestly I can understand why some people are clinging to old auto take units. they are familiar. Wraiths need some sort of adjustment, profile alteration or slight increase in PPM. Not much though.

MSS should go away, it's a clumsy mechanic that isn't fun anyway.

A few hard offenders like fliers and barges also need tweaking.

In recompense, many things need fixing for the better. Immortals should go back to T5 IMO. C'tan shards need a massive price drop. Lich guard and Praetorian need a price drop as well. Flayed ones need rending and probably fear and a 2 point drop (fear mainly as it makes sense thematically), never understood why they don't rend. Doomsday arch needs a crazy overhaul. Pretty much need to overhaul destroyers as well.

It's really sad that 5-6 units are auto includes while the rest of the book is laughably 3rd choice. So many cool units need fixing.

Saying wraiths are fine because other units blow is not a rational response. They shouldn't be ruined, but they do need a tweak or two along with the other common offenders.

I'd be nice to see a C'tan or monolith again

 Red Corsair wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
psychic powers are unreliable, can hurt your own guys, and got a huge *HUGE* nerf in 7th.

compared to cheap, 100% reliable units, that dont even need powers, its not even a close trade off to make.

for what they are, wraiths are very undercosted. same with MSS, very undercosted for what it does. necrons have 0 holes in what they can do, for a supposedly bad CC army, MSS makes you equal to or better then anything you might face in CC.

There is lots of undercosted stuff in 40k. Every army has undercosted stuff. Are wraiths even worth getting in a huff over? Nope.

Honestly I can understand why some people are clinging to old auto take units. they are familiar. Wraiths need some sort of adjustment, profile alteration or slight increase in PPM. Not much though.

MSS should go away, it's a clumsy mechanic that isn't fun anyway.

A few hard offenders like fliers and barges also need tweaking.

In recompense, many things need fixing for the better. Immortals should go back to T5 IMO. C'tan shards need a massive price drop. Lich guard and Praetorian need a price drop as well. Flayed ones need rending and probably fear and a 2 point drop (fear mainly as it makes sense thematically), never understood why they don't rend. Doomsday arch needs a crazy overhaul. Pretty much need to overhaul destroyers as well.

It's really sad that 5-6 units are auto includes while the rest of the book is laughably 3rd choice. So many cool units need fixing.

Saying wraiths are fine because other units blow is not a rational response. They shouldn't be ruined, but they do need a tweak or two along with the other common offenders.

I'd be nice to see a C'tan or monolith again

There is no doubt in my mind that there will be some shuffling around of which units to buy and which units to shelf come the new codex. That's the main reason behind releasing a new codex - get people to buy more models.

There will be some shuffling around for sure, but nothing in the Necron codex is itself a problem like the Wave Serpent is a problem.

However, nerfing paired with buffing is only one way to get people to buy more models. The other way is to package buffs with formations that get players to eventually have diversified highlander collections.

Since Dynasties and Formations (designed to require players to build collections) have already been spoiled and there is evidence that some serious planning has gone into the codex and the supplements to follow I think its safe to say that the Necrons will not be a minimal codex like GK or a nerfing codex like Tyrannid but something more along the lines of Orks or Dark Eldar.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Honestly I can understand why some people are clinging to old auto take units. they are familiar. Wraiths need some sort of adjustment, profile alteration or slight increase in PPM. Not much though.

I think nearly everyone agrees with you.
I just want to speak out against some of the reasons people bring up: Comparing them to Terminators is not a good idea.
For some reason everything Necrons have is treated online as the worst thing to happen to the world since WW2.

It's this entire behaviour that every unit in their Codex is overpowered and that they are the strongest Codex ever.
I've even heard someone once complain that Flayed Ones are too cheap for their 4 attacks on the charge and their RP.
Tesla: Broken. RP: Broken. Wraiths: Broken Flyers: Broken. AB: Broken. MSS: Broken.
Could anyone explain to me while all this broken stuff still has a 55% win according to the last time ToF put some statistics online?
It's even worse in our playing group, one mention of my army and the 'OP-complaining' begins. Even from the guy with Tau and Eldar.

Kangodo wrote:

It's even worse in our playing group, one mention of my army and the 'OP-complaining' begins. Even from the guy with Tau and Eldar.

Pretty sure it's their way of throwing other players off their scent...
Besides... BlaxicanX is obviously trolling this form. Let it go.

Merry Christmas all, and good night!

changemod wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
psychic powers are unreliable, can hurt your own guys, and got a huge *HUGE* nerf in 7th.

Well, that's not exactly true, is it?

Oh certainly, taking a single solitary Psyker took a big hit, but dedicated Psyker armies with a lot of dice to toss around are horrendous for a Necron player to deal with. Buffs you can do nothing about pop up all over the place.

Some of them are really nasty to be able to plonk onto any unit you like too. Other buffs usually are mitigated by predictably being on specific models.

it is 100% true...

only someone who doesnt understand how powers work now would claim they didnt get the huge nerf bat...

casting reliability went down from 90%+ spending warp charges at a 1-1 ratio, to 50% or less when spending WC's at a 1-1 ratio,

spending 3 charges to get a 1 charge power off reliably is a huge nerf, you dont magically get 3x the wc's, and you perils more often.

DTW is "doing something" about them as well, so thats a fals statement that there is nothing you can do about them.

necrons are not the uber codex they once were, but MSS makes cheap characters the equal or better of literally any unit in the game in CC that isnt a walker. thats not a good mechanic, thats not fun, and its not fair, or costed properly.

wraiths are undercosted, claiming there are other undercosted units does not make that better.

BlaxicanX wrote:

Toughness 4, 2 wounds with a 3+/3++ save and 3 WS4 strength 6 rending attacks base, on top of a fearless 12'' moving chassis that also ignores terrain/intervening models... and all costing 5ppm points less then naked terminators, is not "fine".

Riiiiight......because a white scar command squad w/ apothecary on bikes armed with grav/plasma/melta guns, storm shields, and fists/hammers plus [insert fotm op IC w/ bike here] is tame? Right?

A command vet w/melta, and SS is 47 pts. What is that? T5, 3+, 3++? But you also get +1s HoW, reroll terrain, hnr, a S8 ap1 ranged att, +1 jink(not that it's needed). Or wait! A WS assault bike w/ 2W, t5, 3+/3+ jink, and a relentless hvy weapon at 45 pts isn't a bargain? A wraith w/ Whips cost 45.

Don't make me laugh, I'm not ready for a diaper change.

Some folks are oblivious.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yeah MSS is fine. It's our psychic shriek. Get over it. Learn how the war gear works and counter it.

 Nyghoma wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:

Toughness 4, 2 wounds with a 3+/3++ save and 3 WS4 strength 6 rending attacks base, on top of a fearless 12'' moving chassis that also ignores terrain/intervening models... and all costing 5ppm points less then naked terminators, is not "fine".

Riiiiight......because a white scar command squad w/ apothecary on bikes armed with grav/plasma/melta guns, storm shields, and fists/hammers plus [insert fotm op IC w/ bike here] is tame? Right?

A command vet w/melta, and SS is 47 pts. What is that? T5, 3+, 3++? But you also get +1s HoW, reroll terrain, hnr, a S8 ap1 ranged att, +1 jink(not that it's needed). Or wait! A WS assault bike w/ 2W, t5, 3+/3+ jink, and a relentless hvy weapon at 45 pts isn't a bargain? A wraith w/ Whips cost 45.

Don't make me laugh, I'm not ready for a diaper change.

Some folks are oblivious.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yeah MSS is fine. It's our psychic shriek. Get over it. Learn how the war gear works and counter it.

+1 Exalt inbound

Necrons aren't that powerful overall, above average maybe. I like all of the wargear and Cryptek powers, etc. It's part of what gives the army its flavour. There are a few units which I think are way undercosted however:

Night Scythes - Pretty durable, good firepower, large transport capacity, doesn't even use up a force org slot. Orks pay more for a Dakkajet which is comparable is firepower, flimsier, doesn't transport anything and takes up a force org slot.
Annihilation Barges - ****load of s6/7 shots for dirt cheap.
Haywire Crypeks - four Haywire shots for 25 points is simply too good.
CCB - Again just too cheap for what it does all round.

I don't include Wraiths on that list, I think they're comparable in value to certain other assault units which can move 12".

At the same time, there are several units in the book which just don't work e.g.
C'Tan - Once you pay for the the upgrades you are looking at Wraithknight points for something which doesn't do anything as well as a Wraithknight. Needs to be able to move 12".

Really? I always thought my Canoptek Wraiths should be at least 40 points, perhaps 45.
But that is only if they keep their double wound, Rending and 3++ (especially that last part should make them a bit more expensive for a Jump unit).

On the other hand I think the CCB-issue has more to do with the Overlord's wargear than the CCB itself.

Don't feed the troll, guys!

This is the RUMORS THREAD , not argue about what is and isn't broken and or undercosted thread.

I would like to see a new MC of some sort. Big ol Necron stomping around

It would be nice to see something equal to a Tau Riptide or Eldar Wraithknight. I know we have the Tomb Stalker and Sentinal, but we are lacking in the monstrous creature department.

Vash108 wrote:I would like to see a new MC of some sort. Big ol Necron stomping around

Avidem wrote:It would be nice to see something equal to a Tau Riptide or Eldar Wraithknight. I know we have the Tomb Stalker and Sentinal, but we are lacking in the monstrous creature department.

I remember the first appearance of the Monolith, it was a scary thing on the table. Something like what you guys mentioned would only seem right since everyone else has big scaries.