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Besides, why are we putting Necron weaponry on par with everyone else's? I always figured Necrons hit a little harder and were harder to kill as a result of the whole 'no psychic abilities whatsoever' thing. If you balance Necron stats to everything else on a base level, Necrons will kinda lose out.

You are right ZeroMaeus. Some people just want to watch the world burn. Well, at least the Xeno worlds.

 Redemption wrote:
But it's just an artefact of an old codex, I fully expect the extra 2 hits on 6's to be removed when you snapfire a la the Shock rule from the new Space Wolves codex.

But where does that leave us with anti-air?
Do you want Necrons to rely on only Flyers for that?
I want the new Codex to reduce the amount of lists with 4 Flyers, not increase it!

 adamsouza wrote:
I did screw up the twin linked on Snap shots. I only figured rerolls on 1-2, not 1-5

It's much too late to be doing the maths

It was too late, I was just lucky that I had all the math saved in an excel-file
A week or two ago I had to calculate the difference between BS4 and BS3 on the Barge, to see the actual difference.

I see misconceptions on both sides:
Some people think Tesla Destructors gain more hits when Snapshotting.
But on the other side we have people thinking they suffer just as much.

Well it is an artifact of an old codex in the sense that Carbines before filled a totally different niche than they do now that Rapid Fire has changed.

 adamsouza wrote:
Why does it have to be an artifact of an old codex ?

It's an artefact because snapfiring and flyers didn't exist when the current Necron codex was released. And it has basically become a no-brainer choice, instead of a tactical decision on risk versus reward. When there's such a small penalty for jinking, but such a huge bonus to defence, you just almost always do it.

Maybe advanced Alien technology is suppossed to work better than the stuff the Imperium has , but barely understands.

That's just a fallacy if you want any kind of balance between armies. Beside the fact that the same case can be made for pretty much every codex (Necron/Eldar have super technology! Sistes have super faith! 'Nids are super-evolving! Space Marines are super-hardcore! etc), more powerful stuff should be represented by more expensive units. Not just by being plain better.

It's not like the Eldar have really good skimmers... Oh wait.

Balancing a codex based on another overpowered codex is another fallacy; that is what leads to power creep. When the next Eldar codex is released, they should fix those troubled units as well. And for the record, Eldar is one of my armies.

zeromaeus wrote:
Besides, why are we putting Necron weaponry on par with everyone else's? I always figured Necrons hit a little harder and were harder to kill as a result of the whole 'no psychic abilities whatsoever' thing. If you balance Necron stats to everything else on a base level, Necrons will kinda lose out.

Necrons have Crypteks with their esoteric wargear instead of Psykers, which are far more reliable than psychic powers too. At least, they currently are, who knows what they'll do with them in the next codex, of course.

Kangodo wrote:
But where does that leave us with anti-air?
Do you want Necrons to rely on only Flyers for that?
I want the new Codex to reduce the amount of lists with 4 Flyers, not increase it!

Same place as the other codexes, I guess? It's not like the other armies have loads of spamable AA options, barring a few exceptions.

Alcibiades wrote:
If Tesla changes to Shock, tesla carbines will become inferior to gauss blasters (sometimes inferior to gauss flayers) in almost all circumstances, other than being Assault. If they do change to that, I'm pretty sure they'll gain something else (Ignore Cover, maybe).

Tesla should cause pinning. You ever see someone get tazed?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kangodo wrote:
I do understand the issue.
AB's are lightly undercosted as a 'normal' gun, but they could stay like this.
They are fine as AA.
The problems come when you Jink and hardly lose any shots from doing so.

In my opinion the 'best' solution would be to change the way they work after Jink and leave the snap-shots alone.
But such a rule would be quite messy and overly complicated, so the next best thing would be an upgrade which allows them to use Skyfire.

Though I expect some ridiculous point-increases when I look at the BA-Baal Predator.


Edit: Gauss actually eats the armour away, Tesla just puts lightning on it.. I would guess that most tanks survive some lightning?

People need to stop pretending AB's are the only AA option. Night scythes carry the same weapon platform you know and GW knows it as well. So far GK, BA, SW, Eldar and DE all rely on fliers for AA (flack missiles don't count for )

Kangodo wrote:

 Redemption wrote:
But it's just an artefact of an old codex, I fully expect the extra 2 hits on 6's to be removed when you snapfire a la the Shock rule from the new Space Wolves codex.

But where does that leave us with anti-air?
Do you want Necrons to rely on only Flyers for that?.

You mean like Tyranids and Dark Eldar? I don't see a problem with it.

And ninja'ed by a couple others it seems.

 Sinful Hero wrote:
You mean like Tyranids and Dark Eldar? I don't see a problem with it.
And ninja'ed by a couple others it seems.

So because your army doesn't have it, the other kids can't have their toys either and they should take it away?
Do you know how that sounds?

 Red Corsair wrote:
People need to stop pretending AB's are the only AA option. Night scythes carry the same weapon platform you know and GW knows it as well. So far GK, BA, SW, Eldar and DE all rely on fliers for AA (flack missiles don't count for )

So what you are saying is: "I want Necrons to spam more Flyers!"?
First time I ever heard that from a player.

Kangodo wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:
You mean like Tyranids and Dark Eldar? I don't see a problem with it.
And ninja'ed by a couple others it seems.

So because your army doesn't have it, the other kids can't have their toys either and they should take it away?
Do you know how that sounds?

 Red Corsair wrote:
People need to stop pretending AB's are the only AA option. Night scythes carry the same weapon platform you know and GW knows it as well. So far GK, BA, SW, Eldar and DE all rely on fliers for AA (flack missiles don't count for )

So what you are saying is: "I want Necrons to spam more Flyers!"?
First time I ever heard that from a player.

Or perhaps, "Bring it in line with the rest of the game.", but you're more than welcome to infer whatever you please from my posts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If armies have any non-flyer anti-air, it's usually a dedicated ground unit that specifically deals with flyers, not a unit that hits everything all the time.

Which is why, if you read my previous posts, I think they should remove the snapfires from Tesla and give it a Skyfire upgrade.
That way you can either have a AB or a AB as AA.

Kangodo wrote:
Which is why, if you read my previous posts, I think they should remove the snapfires from Tesla and give it a Skyfire upgrade.
That way you can either have a AB or a AB as AA.

No where in this post did you mention that-

Kangodo wrote:

 Redemption wrote:
But it's just an artefact of an old codex, I fully expect the extra 2 hits on 6's to be removed when you snapfire a la the Shock rule from the new Space Wolves codex.

But where does that leave us with anti-air?
Do you want Necrons to rely on only Flyers for that?
I want the new Codex to reduce the amount of lists with 4 Flyers, not increase it!

It appears as if you were arguing that they needed to keep the snap fire. Although if they took that away and added a skyfire option it wouldn't be any different than Tau or a Flakk upgrade.

And nowhere did I mention they should keep it
I've often explain my reasoning and it comes down to:
-Snapshot + Tesla in Overwatch: Good
-Snapshot + Tesla in AA: Good
-Snapshot + Tesla in Jink: Holy crap overpowered!

It's incredibly hard to find a neat way to fix the last, while keeping the first two intact.
The problem is that most people who come to complain about it totally forget the first two applications of the synergy.

 Redemption wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:
Why does it have to be an artifact of an old codex ?

It's an artefact because snapfiring and flyers didn't exist when the current Necron codex was released. And it has basically become a no-brainer choice, instead of a tactical decision on risk versus reward. When there's such a small penalty for jinking, but such a huge bonus to defence, you just almost always do it.

Yes, tesla has an advantage in this department, ok. Let's not pretend that this is an isolated case for an army have an advantage in some department. Everyone has their own proverbial "tesla". Distort ANYONE!?

Post-snapshot issues with tesla could have been easily faq'ed for years.......Coincidence?

Maybe advanced Alien technology is suppossed to work better than the stuff the Imperium has , but barely understands.

That's just a fallacy if you want any kind of balance between armies. Beside the fact that the same case can be made for pretty much every codex (Necron/Eldar anecdote super technology! Sistes have super faith! 'Nids are super-evolving! Space Marines are super-hardcore! etc), more powerful stuff should be represented by more expensive units. Not just by being plain better.

I think the real fallacy is what you wrote above: "different=better". Percentage wise tesla does a little better with snaps, but taking everything necron in account, not just a singular facet, I'd say it's just fine. Necron gave birth to unorthodox rules, as did the Tau during their inception. And even after all these years of exposure, some kids still can't wrap their heads around it resulting in base fear.

It's not like the Eldar have really good skimmers... Oh wait.

Balancing a codex based on another overpowered codex is another fallacy; that is what leads to power creep. When the next Eldar codex is released, they should fix those troubled units as well. And for the record, Eldar is one of my armies.

Balance is a game of whack-a-mole. Neverending, ever elusive.

zeromaeus wrote:
Besides, why are we putting Necron weaponry on par with everyone else's? I always figured Necrons hit a little harder and were harder to kill as a result of the whole 'no psychic abilities whatsoever' thing. If you balance Necron stats to everything else on a base level, Necrons will kinda lose out.

Necrons have Crypteks with their esoteric wargear instead of Psykers, which are far more reliable than psychic powers too. At least, they currently are, who knows what they'll do with them in the next codex, of course.

Don't EVEN go there. You're comparing harbingers with psychics? Ok, I need a diaper change.

Kangodo wrote:
But where does that leave us with anti-air?
Do you want Necrons to rely on only Flyers for that?
I want the new Codex to reduce the amount of lists with 4 Flyers, not increase it!

Same place as the other codexes, I guess? It's not like the other armies have loads of spamable AA options, barring a few exceptions.

Right, right an excellent point. Let's give the stand alone codex with zero battle brother options even less avenues to explore than it already has, in support of mass hysteria and homogenization!! A double negative is a positive, right?

Sorry but all your anecdotes are flatulent. I mean really, an Eldar player needs to reign in on what's too good for necrons? Now I've seen it all....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kangodo wrote:
And nowhere did I mention they should keep it
I've often explain my reasoning and it comes down to:
-Snapshot + Tesla in Overwatch: Good
-Snapshot + Tesla in AA: Good
-Snapshot + Tesla in Jink: Holy crap overpowered!

It's incredibly hard to find a neat way to fix the last, while keeping the first two intact.
The problem is that most people who come to complain about it totally forget the first two applications of the synergy.

Don't be a sell out by caving to non-sense on the Internet. TESLA IS FINE. Omg! There's a 16.5% chance I'm gonna get hit with a AP- weapon!!! Think of the children!!!!

/jink

I agree with Nyghoma on all his points.

Space Marines can do anything, other than snap shot, better than Necrons.

Psykers are better than Crypteks. The powers are better, they can have multiple wounds, and they can be good at close combat.

Eldar have Wave Serpents, universally heralded as the currently most broken good thing in the game.

Everyone, other than Astra Militarum, is better in assualt 90% of the time.

FNP is better than reanimation protocols.

Necrons are what maybe 4th in the top tier armies ? Behind Eldar, Tau, and Space Marines ?

Explain to me what impact Twin Linked Tesla Destructors are having on the overall power of Necrons Armies that they need to be nerfed ? Is 4th Tier just too good ?

I thought Daemons were also above us?

Tesla is fine, but an AV13 vehicle with 'free' Jink for 90 points isn't.
Stuff like that has to come down so they can buff other, more fun, units.

Kangodo wrote:
I thought Daemons were also above us?

Necrons are behind Eldar, Tau, Space Marines, and Daemons.

Please explain what impact jinking Twin Linked Tesla Destructors are having on the overall power level of Necrons Armies that they need to be nerfed ?

If MSS, ABs, CCBs, and Scythes were as good as the critics proclaim they are, Necrons wouldn't be 5th tier.

It's simply a case of when you spend certain amount of points on a unit, you expect a certain amount of bang for your buck be that in the form of offense/durability/movement etc. The AB and NS are currently far too cheap for what they provide in these areas

Is an A13 (until first pen) 3HP vehicle which can jink and has four TL S7 shots and two S6 shots which all produce extra hits on 6s making it relatively effective even after jinking for 90 points a good deal? It's a bloody amazing deal.

By the same token other units such as the C'Tan and Monolith should have their rules improved/points cost reduced.

Those other codexes mentioned, SM, Eldar, Tau (and I'll throw Daemons in as well) were released when GW was on their power creep and have their own balance issues. Anyone who thinks the AB needs a nerf but the WS doesn't would be a hypocrite.

Isn't Daemons only in the case of certain power builds?

An assault oriented army with only a few units that are actually particularly amazing in assault, and low amounts of fire support. You need to get pretty specific to get a scary Daemons army.

Imperial knights are above Eldar, Tau, Daemons and Necrons.

Torrent of Fire has a breakdown by armies played and armies winning. Of note is although Eldar are played the most (almost double other armies!), they are NOT the most winning army. If all their stuff was really as broken as people rage they should be better than knights and at least have a higher range of wins in comparison to other armies, but instead it's a difference of a 3-4% to other armies and near 9% below knights...

Necrons aren't slouched either in that arena, high win ratio but played less than other armies. Ranked 5th in played and winning.

ryuken87 wrote:
It's simply a case of when you spend certain amount of points on a unit, you expect a certain amount of bang for your buck be that in the form of offense/durability/movement etc. The AB and NS are currently far too cheap for what they provide in these areas

Only if you are looking at them in a vacuum, and not in context of how they affect the overall power of the army.

Necron players gleefully spam AB and NS and the army is still 5th tier.

 z3n1st wrote:
Imperial knights are above Eldar, Space Marines, Daemons and Necrons.

Wait, make that 6th tier...

As others already stated, Necrons MUST be "better" than average in some regards as they are denied an entire part of the game, namely Psychics, putting them at a strong disadvantage. While this certainly does not mean that Necrons should never see any nerf, it also means that "just" average isn't enough for an army that just cannot be on par with all other armies in one entire part of the game.

Here's still hoping, though, that GW just changes Crypteks to be Count-as Psykers with individual "powers". Or maybe some WHFB Dwarf-ish solution that makes Necrons decent at "dispelling". Would make perfect sense fluff-wise, unlike the current iteration, where the "technologically most advanced race" seems to be unable to answer one of their two main weaknesses, namely Psychics / the Warp.

 adamsouza wrote:
Necrons are behind Eldar, Tau, Space Marines, and Daemons.

Please explain what impact jinking Twin Linked Tesla Destructors are having on the overall power level of Necrons Armies that they need to be nerfed ?

If MSS, ABs, CCBs, and Scythes were as good as the critics proclaim they are, Necrons wouldn't be 5th tier.

CCBs and MSS aren't that good.
ABs and Scythes are that good, they need some scaling back if the rest of the Codex should be buffed.

On the subject of Night Scythes, I think of them less as my dedicated anti-air and more as my long range artillery. Before I owned any of them, I was consistently having trouble reaching out to my opponents' back field. I tried harbingers of destruction and even a doomsday ark, but they lacked the effectiveness that I was seeing from other races long range guns.
Whatever happens to tesla, I'm hoping our other units see a boost so that I can play more varied lists.

We need Pariahs back. No clue why they vanished in the first place, only unit that got dropped from 3rd.

Kangodo wrote:
I thought Daemons were also above us?

Tesla is fine, but an AV13 vehicle with 'free' Jink for 90 points isn't.
Stuff like that has to come down so they can buff other, more fun, units.

Come on man. Spending 120 pts on DT with 12/ 12/ 10, twin linked str8 lance attacks, a serpent shield that ignores pens or blows up units with d6+1 Str 7 attacks, AND jink is fine?

I can list an example from 3/4 of the codexes that contain a bargain unit, similar to an AB. Why is this made out to be so "dirty" and lascivious?

Look, I play 5 different armies. All of them have their got-to units. You will never see me jump in someone's thread and lobby for nerfs. Why you ask? Because I know everyone has their skeletons, or on the flip side, their benefits. It would be disingenuous.

Here's an exercise for all to ingest. Instead of crying foul or nerfs to an army or one of its many appendages, appraise your army's weakness, and ask nicely for a buff instead. It's like a judo move, redirecting incoming force on to itself. In the end, the results are the same. It's a win-win, and you tend not to offend a share of the community.

changemod wrote:
We need Pariahs back. No clue why they vanished in the first place, only unit that got dropped from 3rd.

...especially because they would be far better than Trashguard.

The major thing I don't like about the army currently is the Cryptek + Deathmarks in a Night Scythe. That stupid Mark for Death/weird flamer thing that is AP1 or 2 from the Cryptek = 1 squad is pretty much always dead. Which may not seem like a lot but at 1k points it's brutal.

 adamsouza wrote:

ryuken87 wrote:
It's simply a case of when you spend certain amount of points on a unit, you expect a certain amount of bang for your buck be that in the form of offense/durability/movement etc. The AB and NS are currently far too cheap for what they provide in these areas

Only if you are looking at them in a vacuum, and not in context of how they affect the overall power of the army.

Necron players gleefully spam AB and NS and the army is still 5th tier.

Then maybe Necrons should have some buffs in the areas they struggle. Having strengths and weaknesses in different areas helps to give armies character, but the current Necron book is an example of poor internal balance such as some units are spammed and others completely ignored. Is looking across the board and seeing variety not a good thing?

May I genuinely ask what you would like in the new book (apologies if you have stated this previously but it's a long thread)? What would you buff/nerf that would bring Necrons in line with the other more recent releases?

ryuken87 wrote:


Then maybe Necrons should have some buffs in the areas they struggle. Having strengths and weaknesses in different areas helps to give armies character, but the current Necron book is an example of poor internal balance such as some units are spammed and others completely ignored. Is looking across the board and seeing variety not a good thing?

That's been the case for each and every army in GW games ever.

 Sigvatr wrote:

changemod wrote:
We need Pariahs back. No clue why they vanished in the first place, only unit that got dropped from 3rd.

...especially because they would be far better than Trashguard.

I wouldn't go so far as to call them that, we have worse units.

The problem with them is that they're modelled on Assault Terminators but with sucker options and thus only have one of the three traits a pricey assault unit needs.

-Power: Warscythes give plenty.

-Durability: Nowhere near enough for their cost. They can buy an Invulnerable save, but it costs them the only thing that made them useful and makes them even pricier.

-And most critically, a way to get there.

Ideal solution: Give them a 5++ invulnerable save and two swords by default, five point upgrade is to 3++ Shield and Scythe, let them deep strike or take a Ghost Ark as dedicated transport. Makes them the actual Assault Terminator equivalent they're meant to be.

More likely fix that doesn't need a new kit to be released: Cut price, lift the restriction on only Warriors being able to ride an Ark.