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 Nyghoma wrote:

Kangodo wrote:
I thought Daemons were also above us?

Tesla is fine, but an AV13 vehicle with 'free' Jink for 90 points isn't.
Stuff like that has to come down so they can buff other, more fun, units.

Come on man. Spending 120 pts on DT with 12/ 12/ 10, twin linked str8 lance attacks, a serpent shield that ignores pens or blows up units with d6+1 Str 7 attacks, AND jink is fine?

No, both are far too cheap for what they do. You forgot the Ignores Cover and Pinning. It's a dirty, dirty unit.

 Sigvatr wrote:
As others already stated, Necrons MUST be "better" than average in some regards as they are denied an entire part of the game, namely Psychics, putting them at a strong disadvantage. While this certainly does not mean that Necrons should never see any nerf, it also means that "just" average isn't enough for an army that just cannot be on par with all other armies in one entire part of the game.

Here's still hoping, though, that GW just changes Crypteks to be Count-as Psykers with individual "powers". Or maybe some WHFB Dwarf-ish solution that makes Necrons decent at "dispelling". Would make perfect sense fluff-wise, unlike the current iteration, where the "technologically most advanced race" seems to be unable to answer one of their two main weaknesses, namely Psychics / the Warp.

Necrons used to have Pariahs for antipsyker, now they got jack.

Necron Army Score card
Ranged Combat ? Overall medium range, limited selection, mostly AP5 and AP-
Melee Combat ? I2 is a severe disadvantage. Wraiths with whips are good, not much else is. Other options are severly overcosted.
Psychic Phase ? Sit there and take a pounding.
Flyers ? Lots of them, that zoom and can't hover
Antiflyer ? Hope that your flyers made their reserve rolls, haven't flown off the board yet, and are pointing in the right direction.
Twin Linked Tesla Destructors are the one thing you have going in this department. If they get nerfed, you got nothing.

So what are Necrons better at than other races ?

Resilience - Reanimation protocols, CCB, and Scarab Hives let Necrons stay on the board longer than they would without them.
Twin Linked Tesla Destructors - Your first, second, and third choice, because you really don't have a choice. High rate of fire with AP-.
Better at taking down space marine vehicles than it is at taking down space marines. Useless against AV14.

 Nyghoma wrote:
Come on man. Spending 120 pts on DT with 12/ 12/ 10, twin linked str8 lance attacks, a serpent shield that ignores pens or blows up units with d6+1 Str 7 attacks, AND jink is fine?

I can list an example from 3/4 of the codexes that contain a bargain unit, similar to an AB. Why is this made out to be so "dirty" and lascivious?

Look, I play 5 different armies. All of them have their got-to units. You will never see me jump in someone's thread and lobby for nerfs. Why you ask? Because I know everyone has their skeletons, or on the flip side, their benefits. It would be disingenuous.

Here's an exercise for all to ingest. Instead of crying foul or nerfs to an army or one of its many appendages, appraise your army's weakness, and ask nicely for a buff instead. It's like a judo move, redirecting incoming force on to itself. In the end, the results are the same. It's a win-win, and you tend not to offend a share of the community.

"Kangodo thinks AB's are too strong, that must surely means he approves of Wave Serpents!"
I do not get the logic, or is that just me?

And uhm.. Necrons are my main army? I have around 16.000 points of which at least 5 Annihilation Barges.

 adamsouza wrote:


Resilience - Reanimation protocols, CCB, and Scarab Hives let Necrons stay on the board longer than they would without them.
Twin Linked Tesla Destructors - Your first, second, and third choice, because you really don't have a choice. High rate of fire with AP-.
Better at taking down space marine vehicles than it is at taking down space marines. Useless against AV14.

Anti-vehicle spam. While not being that famous anymore, spammed Gauss still is a very viable AV mean. Especially with stuff like Tank Hunter.

 Sigvatr wrote:
As others already stated, Necrons MUST be "better" than average in some regards as they are denied an entire part of the game, namely Psychics, putting them at a strong disadvantage. While this certainly does not mean that Necrons should never see any nerf, it also means that "just" average isn't enough for an army that just cannot be on par with all other armies in one entire part of the game.

Here's still hoping, though, that GW just changes Crypteks to be Count-as Psykers with individual "powers". Or maybe some WHFB Dwarf-ish solution that makes Necrons decent at "dispelling". Would make perfect sense fluff-wise, unlike the current iteration, where the "technologically most advanced race" seems to be unable to answer one of their two main weaknesses, namely Psychics / the Warp.

I would like to reinforce this point and put things in perspective. The psychic phase is potentially the most lucrative phase for given player. Think about it. It's a skinny shooting phase, wrapped in stacking force multipliers. Powers that ignore cover, inv saves, do multiple wounds, stuff your head in a toilet bowl, etc...

Some of the most broken combos imaginable are due to psychic stacking. Invisendurforeboawhat!? Amirite?
Necrons miss their prom day in a bad way. Nerf ing anything in our current codex is blasphemous.

 adamsouza wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
As others already stated, Necrons MUST be "better" than average in some regards as they are denied an entire part of the game, namely Psychics, putting them at a strong disadvantage. While this certainly does not mean that Necrons should never see any nerf, it also means that "just" average isn't enough for an army that just cannot be on par with all other armies in one entire part of the game.

Here's still hoping, though, that GW just changes Crypteks to be Count-as Psykers with individual "powers". Or maybe some WHFB Dwarf-ish solution that makes Necrons decent at "dispelling". Would make perfect sense fluff-wise, unlike the current iteration, where the "technologically most advanced race" seems to be unable to answer one of their two main weaknesses, namely Psychics / the Warp.

Necrons used to have Pariahs for antipsyker, now they got jack.

Necron Army Score card
Ranged Combat ? Overall medium range, limited selection, mostly AP5 and AP-
Melee Combat ? I2 is a severe disadvantage. Wraiths with whips are good, not much else is. Other options are severly overcosted.
Psychic Phase ? Sit there and take a pounding.
Flyers ? Lots of them, that zoom and can't hover
Antiflyer ? Hope that your flyers made their reserve rolls, haven't flown off the board yet, and are pointing in the right direction.
Twin Linked Tesla Destructors are the one thing you have going in this department. If they get nerfed, you got nothing.

So what are Necrons better at than other races ?

Resilience - Reanimation protocols, CCB, and Scarab Hives let Necrons stay on the board longer than they would without them.
Twin Linked Tesla Destructors - Your first, second, and third choice, because you really don't have a choice. High rate of fire with AP-.
Better at taking down space marine vehicles than it is at taking down space marines. Useless against AV14.

Our troop units unit can be adequate improvised anti-tank.
Of course, we don't really have any good ranged anti-tank to begin with, but still.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Nyghoma wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
As others already stated, Necrons MUST be "better" than average in some regards as they are denied an entire part of the game, namely Psychics, putting them at a strong disadvantage. While this certainly does not mean that Necrons should never see any nerf, it also means that "just" average isn't enough for an army that just cannot be on par with all other armies in one entire part of the game.

Here's still hoping, though, that GW just changes Crypteks to be Count-as Psykers with individual "powers". Or maybe some WHFB Dwarf-ish solution that makes Necrons decent at "dispelling". Would make perfect sense fluff-wise, unlike the current iteration, where the "technologically most advanced race" seems to be unable to answer one of their two main weaknesses, namely Psychics / the Warp.

I would like to reinforce this point and put things in perspective. The psychic phase is potentially the most lucrative phase for given player. Think about it. It's a skinny shooting phase, wrapped in stacking force multipliers. Powers that ignore cover, inv saves, do multiple wounds, stuff your head in a toilet bowl, etc...

Some of the most broken combos imaginable are due to psychic stacking. Invisendurforeboawhat!? Amirite?
Necrons miss their prom day in a bad way. Nerf ing anything in our current codex is blasphemous.

Yeah, the psy-capabilities in the new dex is actually worse than in the old dex.
Before we had Pariahs, which were overpriced, but did have a nice AoE anti-psyker field.

Now we have gloom prisms, which are too short ranged to be useful.

Considering how Necrons are supposed to be the experts when it comes to neutering psykers due to the War in Heaven, it's really sad.

I just want an artifact that I can activate once per game, that makes every psy test fail and causes perils. Because feth yo' magic, I'm a robot. I don't take kindly to your illogical shenanigans.
Actually, no, that doesn't make sense as an item. Just perils would do

 adamsouza wrote:

ryuken87 wrote:
It's simply a case of when you spend certain amount of points on a unit, you expect a certain amount of bang for your buck be that in the form of offense/durability/movement etc. The AB and NS are currently far too cheap for what they provide in these areas

Only if you are looking at them in a vacuum, and not in context of how they affect the overall power of the army.

Necron players gleefully spam AB and NS and the army is still 5th tier.

 z3n1st wrote:
Imperial knights are above Eldar, Space Marines, Daemons and Necrons.

Wait, make that 6th tier...

Nope it makes them solidly 5th tier

Imperial Knights 1st (played less than the other top 5 armies and still pulling a Charley Sheen by almost 9% better win ratio over any other army)
Eldar 2nd (played almost TWICE as much as any other army including space monkeys, but only ahead by 2-3 %)
Tau 3rd
Daemons 4th
NECRONS 5th

Not sure how you got 6th out of that...

Kangodo wrote:

 Nyghoma wrote:
Come on man. Spending 120 pts on DT with 12/ 12/ 10, twin linked str8 lance attacks, a serpent shield that ignores pens or blows up units with d6+1 Str 7 attacks, AND jink is fine?

I can list an example from 3/4 of the codexes that contain a bargain unit, similar to an AB. Why is this made out to be so "dirty" and lascivious?

Look, I play 5 different armies. All of them have their got-to units. You will never see me jump in someone's thread and lobby for nerfs. Why you ask? Because I know everyone has their skeletons, or on the flip side, their benefits. It would be disingenuous.

Here's an exercise for all to ingest. Instead of crying foul or nerfs to an army or one of its many appendages, appraise your army's weakness, and ask nicely for a buff instead. It's like a judo move, redirecting incoming force on to itself. In the end, the results are the same. It's a win-win, and you tend not to offend a share of the community.

"Kangodo thinks AB's are too strong, that must surely means he approves of Wave Serpents!"
I do not get the logic, or is that just me?

And uhm.. Necrons are my main army? I have around 16.000 points of which at least 5 Annihilation Barges.

Kangodo, I know you didn't say that, I know you're a deadhead(necronie). The point I was trying to make is DON'T FEEL GUILTY. No guilt for AB, NS, tesla, gauss, reanimate, MSS, WS, or a smashing, wafe physique. We're all in the pigpen. Take your pants off....

I for one feel no guilt. Especially after the thourough nerfing of my monolith.

I want my Deep Striking Ziggurat of Death back :(

I think given the Necron 'unliving robot', admantium will wouldn't be a bad unit upgrade to represent their anti-psy

10 Warriros with Gauss hit on 3+ and then Glance on 6+.
10 rolls, 7 hit, 1 Glance. Not exactly reliable antitank, unless you are relying on it to glance a tank to death slowly over 2-3 rounds.

With my luck, I roll a ton of 6's to hit and none to glance.

The average Tactical Squad, with a special and heavy weapon, can do better, and they are not considered reliable anti tank.

I'd rather rely on sheer volume of Scarabs, or Tesla to deal with tanks.

 adamsouza wrote:
10 Warriros with Gauss hit on 3+ and then Glance on 6+.
10 rolls, 7 hit, 1 Glance. Not exactly reliable antitank, unless you are relying on it to glance a tank to death slowly over 2-3 rounds.

With my luck, I roll a ton of 6's to hit and none to glance.

The average Tactical Squad, with a special and heavy weapon, can do better, and they are not considered reliable anti tank.

I'd rather rely on sheer volume of Scarabs, or Tesla to deal with tanks.

Compared to most infantry, who can't scratch a tank without upgrading, it is pretty impressive.
They are not as reliable as a proper anti-tank unit, that is true.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 z3n1st wrote:
I think given the Necron 'unliving robot', admantium will wouldn't be a bad unit upgrade to represent their anti-psy

That's not a bad idea. Increase the range of the Gloom Prism, and you can get a nice anti-psy bubble going.

 Nyghoma wrote:
Kangodo, I know you didn't say that, I know you're a deadhead(necronie). The point I was trying to make is DON'T FEEL GUILTY. No guilt for AB, NS, tesla, gauss, reanimate, MSS, WS, or a smashing, wafe physique. We're all in the pigpen. Take your pants off....

I don't feel guilty I want the army to be more than "How many Barges can I put in this FOC?"
My ideal new Codex keeps us at least as competitive as now, but with more choices of what I can take.

I would love to build a strong and competitive list with Doomsday Arks and Monoliths.
That simply isn't going to happen when we have AV13 with Jink for those amount of points.

Tesla, Gauss, MSS, WS, etc, are all things I can throw mathhammer on to proof it's fine.
But there are only three units in the Codex which are a bit undercosted.

The problem is that even free army-wide Adamantium will does nothing to slow psychic buffing, which is for the most part the real power in Psyker heavy armies.

Something along the lines of Pariahs, which actively mess with enemy Psykers, is a more sensible solution for an army that can't apply their own psychic phase buffs.

 adamsouza wrote:
10 Warriros with Gauss hit on 3+ and then Glance on 6+.
10 rolls, 7 hit, 1 Glance. Not exactly reliable antitank, unless you are relying on it to glance a tank to death slowly over 2-3 rounds.

With my luck, I roll a ton of 6's to hit and none to glance.

The average Tactical Squad, with a special and heavy weapon, can do better, and they are not considered reliable anti tank.

I'd rather rely on sheer volume of Scarabs, or Tesla to deal with tanks.

It's an added bonus, they aren't an AT unit on their own. And a blob of 20 models with Tankhunter is a whole different story

changemod wrote:
The problem is that even free army-wide Adamantium will does nothing to slow psychic buffing, which is for the most part the real power in Psyker heavy armies.

Something along the lines of Pariahs, which actively mess with enemy Psykers, is a more sensible solution for an army that can't apply their own psychic phase buffs.

True but giving the option of AW, followed with something like subtraction dice for certain units on the table (say Pariahs, or Warriors as an upgrade), you could shut down or tone down other armies in that way (suddenly you have a reason to have something other than flying bakery items on the table). It would certainly temper heavy psyker armies.

Idea is for each Pariah unit or warrior unit with upgrade, subtract 1 warp charge from the total amount of warp charges each player receives, something along those lines.

Kangodo wrote:

 Nyghoma wrote:
Kangodo, I know you didn't say that, I know you're a deadhead(necronie). The point I was trying to make is DON'T FEEL GUILTY. No guilt for AB, NS, tesla, gauss, reanimate, MSS, WS, or a smashing, wafe physique. We're all in the pigpen. Take your pants off....

I don't feel guilty I want the army to be more than "How many Barges can I put in this FOC?"
My ideal new Codex keeps us at least as competitive as now, but with more choices of what I can take.

I would love to build a strong and competitive list with Doomsday Arks and Monoliths.
That simply isn't going to happen when we have AV13 with Jink for those amount of points.

Tesla, Gauss, MSS, WS, etc, are all things I can throw mathhammer on to proof it's fine.
But there are only three units in the Codex which are a bit undercosted.

Well maybe that's the root of the problem. You personally feel guilty with your overuse of the AB. Honestly, I've never used more than 2 in a dedicated necron list, but typically 0-1, and I table opponents no later then round 2. Which results in lots of swearing and flailing. You can be competitive without the flying whalindas.

No, not guilty with the overuse of AB's.
The guilt comes whenever I field a Monolith, knowing that it could have been two AB's who are a lot better

Kangodo wrote:
No, not guilty with the overuse of AB's.
The guilt comes whenever I field a Monolith, knowing that it could have been two AB's who are a lot better

Hahaha!

 z3n1st wrote:

changemod wrote:
The problem is that even free army-wide Adamantium will does nothing to slow psychic buffing, which is for the most part the real power in Psyker heavy armies.

Something along the lines of Pariahs, which actively mess with enemy Psykers, is a more sensible solution for an army that can't apply their own psychic phase buffs.

True but giving the option of AW, followed with something like subtraction dice for certain units on the table (say Pariahs, or Warriors as an upgrade), you could shut down or tone down other armies in that way (suddenly you have a reason to have something other than flying bakery items on the table). It would certainly temper heavy psyker armies.

Idea is for each Pariah unit or warrior unit with upgrade, subtract 1 warp charge from the total amount of warp charges each player receives, something along those lines.

Well that would just be horrible to people using restrained psychic armies. Say you take a single, two warp charge librarian... Facing a Necron list that chews through his warp charges would completely neuter him at any distance. Render him dead weight.

changemod wrote:

 z3n1st wrote:

changemod wrote:
The problem is that even free army-wide Adamantium will does nothing to slow psychic buffing, which is for the most part the real power in Psyker heavy armies.

Something along the lines of Pariahs, which actively mess with enemy Psykers, is a more sensible solution for an army that can't apply their own psychic phase buffs.

True but giving the option of AW, followed with something like subtraction dice for certain units on the table (say Pariahs, or Warriors as an upgrade), you could shut down or tone down other armies in that way (suddenly you have a reason to have something other than flying bakery items on the table). It would certainly temper heavy psyker armies.

Idea is for each Pariah unit or warrior unit with upgrade, subtract 1 warp charge from the total amount of warp charges each player receives, something along those lines.

Well that would just be horrible to people using restrained psychic armies. Say you take a single, two warp charge librarian... Facing a Necron list that chews through his warp charges would completely neuter him at any distance. Render him dead weight.

It already happens against psychic-heavy armies. I play a mono-Tzeentch flying circus daemon list. I hit 17 dice at 1850, I could do much more than that if I tried to optimize for WC. A single Librarian gets shut down by my army. I played a CSM list the other day and my opponent's two Mastery Level 3 Princes got one or two casts off the entire game.

So the 2 charge librarian has a hard time when faced with an Anti-psyker army? How is that a problem? The tzeentch army that loses something like 5 dice (assuming 5 units), isn't going to shut it down, but will certainly help, especially when coupled with AW. Not seeing the downside here.

A lone Psyker getting sheer number of dice denied by a Tzeench army is at least getting to cast his powers in the first place, that's the difference.

No, guided missile anti-Psyker units is better game design than just saying "If we don't get this phase, neither do you!".

/channels human intention for culexacron

How about instead of removing one warp charge per pariah it removes 10% of Warp Charges (rounded up) from the pool,that way normal psykers only lose a little bit of power while psyker heavy armies learn to fear the necrons. (as it should be,fluff wise)

So now you're suggesting that instead of a field-wide passive ability that screws over the enemy army at deployment instead of through tactical use of the unit, we have a field-wide passive ability that requires pausing the game to do a little bit of bookkeeping every time something with the ability dies or arrives from reserves and screws over the enemy army at deployment rather than through tactical use of the unit.

I realised it wouldn't work completely as is,i'm just throwing in some ideas to complement those others have put in

Not to mention that 10% rounding up is going to remove at least one token anyway.

All the psy-hate brings me back to my Tau army. Sure, I have an army where no flier is safe but have no way to prevent psy-spam armies from just plunking down whole units every turn.

If Necrons get a way to shutdown the psychic phase, I want one for my Tau (and Dark Eldar) too!

Necrons don't need anything crazy and new added, just bring the Pariahs back as a Royal Court option.