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jms40k wrote:

Nilok wrote:
Having their price drop to 16pts or less would be ridiculous unless they got nerfed to hell and back in the process.

I believe Nob Bikers are the only biker units not to receive a significant price drop. Reavers used to be 22 points and are now 16. Yes, there are rule changes, that should be expected, but cheaper units are good since the tomb blades as a base unit (not including the jet bike shenanigans which should remain anyway) weren't all that overwhelming to begin with.

Tomb Blades were fairly good for their price, their failings were the low squad size limit, the prohibitive upgrade costs and the fact they competed for the same FOC slot as the Wraiths.

The change to RP alone should buff them up considerably- a max size 5 squad is extremely vulnerable to single shooting phase wipe-outs and all but guaranteed to be forced to take a Ld test whenever some manage to survive, so they rarely got to roll their RP dice at all.

If the rumors about Gauss are true (doubt it, sounds too powerful) then they're going to be just that much stronger in that respect as well.

All that on top of being a T5 jetbike sounds insane on a 16pts model.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Provided the MSS targets something dangerous and not just some foot soldier. It seems that everyone keeps forgetting that you have to randomly select the target.

And don't forget that the active player can decide to resolve MSS before the Challenge.
That makes MSS a really strong thing, but only in the really limited amount of cases where it actually works.

Any change would probably 'nerf' it in those specific scenarios, but buff in for everything else.
So the end-result would be a great buff to MSS even though it 'sounds' nerfed.

As to the ctan powers anyone think you might get 2 a turn as they are an mc so 2 guns a turn is allowed and might explain the cost a bit.

We don't know really how they work if it were two a turn that'd be pretty ridiculous.I'm more curious about the the Tesseract Vault LOW and it's cost.It's got a insane weapon on it I wonder if it's under 500.


I think this books going to have some impact on the Tournament scene, obviously Tesseract will probably be banned. The Decurion detachment may be as well. As it's a special detachment made up of solely formations.

Hollismason wrote:

I think this books going to have some impact on the Tournament scene, obviously Tesseract will probably be banned. The Decurion detachment may be as well. As it's a special detachment made up of solely formations.

I would hope tournament organizers are not that short sighted to ban the Decurion detachment since it is still essentially one detachment for those that want to adhere to the 2 detachment structure.

MSS WILL get a nerf. MSS can be worked around, but doing so requires actual skill and knowledge, an element GW actively wants to reduce or remove if possible according to the latest codice releases and current rumors.

Hollismason wrote:
I think this books going to have some impact on the Tournament scene, obviously Tesseract will probably be banned. The Decurion detachment may be as well. As it's a special detachment made up of solely formations.

Why do you think it would be banned?
It's not banned now as far as I know and at the moment it's a lot stronger.

I don't think Tournaments that ban stuff like Detachments and Formations will stay around very long.
Like it or not: It is a new and exciting direction they are taking.
If you are unable to learn new stuff than maybe they shouldn't be hosting tournaments.

 Sigvatr wrote:
MSS WILL get a nerf. MSS can be worked around, but doing so requires actual skill and knowledge, an element GW actively wants to reduce or remove if possible according to the latest codice releases and current rumors.

Actually Necron players who relied on MSS will now have to actually use skill and knowledge to beat people in close combat; something it seems they don't want to do.

Chad Warden wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
MSS WILL get a nerf. MSS can be worked around, but doing so requires actual skill and knowledge, an element GW actively wants to reduce or remove if possible according to the latest codice releases and current rumors.

Actually Necron players who relied on MSS will now have to actually use skill and knowledge to beat people in close combat; something it seems they don't want to do.

But but but... we had our time in which we had to use skill and knowledge to beat almost anyone! Like back when we had the Oldcron codex throughout most of the duration of the 5th edition BRB.

...those were fun days...

Chad Warden wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
MSS WILL get a nerf. MSS can be worked around, but doing so requires actual skill and knowledge, an element GW actively wants to reduce or remove if possible according to the latest codice releases and current rumors.

Actually Necron players who relied on MSS will now have to actually use skill and knowledge to beat people in close combat; something it seems they don't want to do.

The same could be said of tanks and melta guns.

 Sigvatr wrote:
MSS WILL get a nerf. MSS can be worked around, but doing so requires actual skill and knowledge, an element GW actively wants to reduce or remove if possible according to the latest codice releases and current rumors.

So it's all a matter of point of view.
I play against good players and they know how to counter it because I taught them.
That means I value it really, really low.

Any streamlining will surely cause it to work a lot easier which means it will actually have an effect that is not psychological.
So against decent players that would surely count as a buff instead of a nerf.

 Anpu-adom wrote:
8 Formations...
the Decursion is a detachment.
Apparently, GW is making a distinction. Formations have no choice of units other than maybe how many to bring. Detachments, however do.

Except in the core rules they call formations a kind of detachment. :/

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
The same could be said of tanks and melta guns.

That seems more of an issue with the Rock-Paper-Scissors nature of 40k.

I mean, guns in general don't require much in the way of tactics - they are, quite literally, point and click.

Chad Warden wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
MSS WILL get a nerf. MSS can be worked around, but doing so requires actual skill and knowledge, an element GW actively wants to reduce or remove if possible according to the latest codice releases and current rumors.

Actually Necron players who relied on MSS will now have to actually use skill and knowledge to beat people in close combat; something it seems they don't want to do.

Yeah, I fully expect Overlords and Destroyer Lords to gain the same skill and knowledge of having superior CC upgrades and stats that Space Marine Chapter Masters enjoy.

From Blood of Kittens

Triarch Stalker: Targeting Relay - +1 BS to a single Necron unit within 12" inches

I didn't get that from the rumors when they were posted.
If so, this looks like a fairly significant nerf to a unit that didn't get much time on the table as far as I could tell because it seldom made its points back and was very slow.
Twinlinking your infantry was the reason to take this model.

If you get the twinlinked AND the +1BS or if they cut the points in half or something of that sort, it makes more sense and obviously would be a nice buff. (Yeah! I would love to use my model more)

If it is just +1BS this would appear to work more like marker lights just significantly less flexible on a higher point unit.

If the points are dropped significantly then the other indications that they might be taken in units of more than 1 might make more sense.
A cluster of 3 Stalkers sharing HP pools (vehicle squadron?) would be more survivable and the ineffectiveness of the unit would mitigate against it being OP.
If they remain the same price, well on the bright side, they can't show up on the table much less.

Obviously, the Necron faction is living in interesting times.

Chad Warden wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
MSS WILL get a nerf. MSS can be worked around, but doing so requires actual skill and knowledge, an element GW actively wants to reduce or remove if possible according to the latest codice releases and current rumors.

Actually Necron players who relied on MSS will now have to actually use skill and knowledge to beat people in close combat; something it seems they don't want to do.

The opposite is the case. If you were not able to play around MSS in 5th, you are a bad player. Hands down.

MSS again? that horse is dead and in the past, can we let it rot please?

He was being sarcastic/trolling ("its 15 whole points, and then you have to write it down...").

Yes, MSS was a BAD DESIGN CHOICE, because it annoyed players (no one likes losing control of models), but Necron characters are just terrible in CC and needed a buff.
GW made a bad call on their implementation of it.

Hopefully in the new codex necron characters get some kind of buff in CC, and from the rumors we have it looks like they are going to get increased weapon skill, which will be a start.

It would be nice to have better init as well, but we will see.
If they do keep MSS, hopefully it will be a more common type debuff (reducing enemy WS, etc.).

Used to be Pariahs were I3, Lords and Flayed Ones I4 and Wraiths I6.

Having basically every unit in the codex have the same stats in multiple areas probably wasn't a smart 5th edition move. Too restrictive.

davethepak wrote:
BAD DESIGN CHOICE, because it annoyed players

Boy if we used that reasoning, most xeno armies would be nerfed into steamlined boredom.
There is far more many annoying things in the game that are here to stay. Eldars for example.

 Herr Dexter wrote:

davethepak wrote:
BAD DESIGN CHOICE, because it annoyed players

Boy if we used that reasoning, most xeno armies would be nerfed into steamlined boredom.
There is far more many annoying things in the game that are here to stay. Eldars for example.

Considering your signature I'm not sure it's the armies fault entirely

 Sigvatr wrote:

The opposite is the case. If you were not able to play around MSS in 5th, you are a bad player. Hands down.

I do not think the effort in countering MSS was in proportion considering the cost. e.g. if you play Khorne Daemons. You can't outshoot Necrons, you may have a hard time out maneuvering them, and if one of your characters gets into combat well they are fethed due to being LD9/8.
There isn't anything else for any other army that causes such problems, and its only 15 points.

Now Necron players will not have an auto-take upgrade, and will actually have to think about keeping their characters out of close combat with the special characters/monsters who cost 2-3 times what they do.

Yeah, I fully expect Overlords and Destroyer Lords to gain the same skill and knowledge of having superior CC upgrades and stats that Space Marine Chapter Masters enjoy.

I'm joking obviously, no one is allowed to have non-MC normal characters as good as a Chapter Master in CC

Strawman.

Necrons are not supposed to be able to reliably beat a Bloodthirster or Abaddon. MSS was anti-fluff.

My guess: MSS effects remain the same, but works only in challenges and might be a 2d6 + 2 leadership test instead of 3d6.

Galorian wrote:
Tomb Blades were fairly good for their price, their failings were the low squad size limit, the prohibitive upgrade costs and the fact they competed for the same FOC slot as the Wraiths.

The change to RP alone should buff them up considerably- a max size 5 squad is extremely vulnerable to single shooting phase wipe-outs and all but guaranteed to be forced to take a Ld test whenever some manage to survive, so they rarely got to roll their RP dice at all.

If the rumors about Gauss are true (doubt it, sounds too powerful) then they're going to be just that much stronger in that respect as well.

All that on top of being a T5 jetbike sounds insane on a 16pts model.

Agreed with pretty much all of that. Their other major failing is the one shared by all Necron units - inability to take special weapons at all. I hope Gauss remedies that by doing extra damage to infantry again. In all honesty, I wish they would just make it rending already - it would hardly be overpowered in a codex where you have no plasma/missiles/melta in infantry units at all and it makes a lot more sense than just glancing vehicles on a 6, even if they're AV200. It'd still make 10 warriors worse off than any other MEQ+plasma guns, and I think it'd be more fluffy too, even if they're bumped up a point or two because of it. Let's face it - who doesn't miss viable foot Necrons?

Kangodo wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
I think this books going to have some impact on the Tournament scene, obviously Tesseract will probably be banned. The Decurion detachment may be as well. As it's a special detachment made up of solely formations.

Why do you think it would be banned?
It's not banned now as far as I know and at the moment it's a lot stronger.

I don't think Tournaments that ban stuff like Detachments and Formations will stay around very long.
Like it or not: It is a new and exciting direction they are taking.
If you are unable to learn new stuff than maybe they shouldn't be hosting tournaments.

If the current major tournaments die, it will be 40ks death rattle. 7th is messed up as hell anyway, formations are just a mess. That said, I wish instead of this unbound nonsense, every army had an organisation model or two like this new one. Benefits for fitting the fluff = great for the game IMO. The codices are actually pretty good at this currently, it's just the main rules which need fixing to allow this to happen.

Gunther wrote:From Blood of Kittens

Triarch Stalker: Targeting Relay - +1 BS to a single Necron unit within 12" inches

I didn't get that from the rumors when they were posted.
If so, this looks like a fairly significant nerf to a unit that didn't get much time on the table as far as I could tell because it seldom made its points back and was very slow.
Twinlinking your infantry was the reason to take this model.

If you get the twinlinked AND the +1BS or if they cut the points in half or something of that sort, it makes more sense and obviously would be a nice buff. (Yeah! I would love to use my model more)

If it is just +1BS this would appear to work more like marker lights just significantly less flexible on a higher point unit.

If the points are dropped significantly then the other indications that they might be taken in units of more than 1 might make more sense.
A cluster of 3 Stalkers sharing HP pools (vehicle squadron?) would be more survivable and the ineffectiveness of the unit would mitigate against it being OP.
If they remain the same price, well on the bright side, they can't show up on the table much less.

Obviously, the Necron faction is living in interesting times.

TL BS4 = 8/9 to hit =16/18
BS5 = 5/6 to hit = 15/18
It's a loss of 1/18th chance to hit, but now stacks with things which are already twin linked. Unless you're massively bummed that you can no longer twin link warrior/immortal fire, it's actually pretty much a buff. I mean, that was the issue it always had - there was already so much twin linking that 9 times out of 10 it was a dead ability. Not to mention that if heavy destroyers keep PE, going to BS5 makes them effectively twin liked on BS5 anyway, which will be hideously beautiful.

davethepak wrote:MSS again? that horse is dead and in the past, can we let it rot please?

He was being sarcastic/trolling ("its 15 whole points, and then you have to write it down...").

Yes, MSS was a BAD DESIGN CHOICE, because it annoyed players (no one likes losing control of models), but Necron characters are just terrible in CC and needed a buff.
GW made a bad call on their implementation of it.

Hopefully in the new codex necron characters get some kind of buff in CC, and from the rumors we have it looks like they are going to get increased weapon skill, which will be a start.

It would be nice to have better init as well, but we will see.
If they do keep MSS, hopefully it will be a more common type debuff (reducing enemy WS, etc.).

Agreed. I worry about how Necrons are going to deal with MCs but I still hated MSS. Just not fun to play with really.

Skullhammer wrote:As to the ctan powers anyone think you might get 2 a turn as they are an mc so 2 guns a turn is allowed and might explain the cost a bit.

That would be mental. I doubt it, but if they can I'll take back everything bad I ever said about C'tan.

Chad Warden wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
MSS WILL get a nerf. MSS can be worked around, but doing so requires actual skill and knowledge, an element GW actively wants to reduce or remove if possible according to the latest codice releases and current rumors.

Actually Necron players who relied on MSS will now have to actually use skill and knowledge to beat people in close combat; something it seems they don't want to do.

Skill and knowledge = lucky rolling so your guys aren't instagibbed now? Hmm.

Herr Dexter wrote:

davethepak wrote:
BAD DESIGN CHOICE, because it annoyed players

Boy if we used that reasoning, most xeno armies would be nerfed into steamlined boredom.
There is far more many annoying things in the game that are here to stay. Eldars for example.

I think I speak for us all when I say death to the pointy earred freaks.

 Herr Dexter wrote:
Boy if we used that reasoning, most xeno armies would be nerfed into steamlined boredom.
There is far more many annoying things in the game that are here to stay. Eldars for example.

Most? How about all.
It seems many Space Marine-players get confused and upset when things don't work as they do in the Imperium.

Chad Warden wrote:
Necrons are not supposed to be able to reliably beat a Bloodthirster or Abaddon. MSS was anti-fluff.

If Abbadon is being charged by Necrons, you have more important things to worry about than MSS.
In that case it'd be wise to reconsider your tactics.

Chad Warden wrote:
Now Necron players will not have an auto-take upgrade, and will actually have to think about keeping their characters out of close combat with the special characters/monsters who cost 2-3 times what they do.

But it wasn't an auto-take.
Especially not if you field 4 Lords, that would be 60 points and for what.. For that small chance a Daemon-player is charging my Warriors with a MC?

Though this discussion is useless.
We will see how they buffed it in less than a week.

Chad Warden wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

The opposite is the case. If you were not able to play around MSS in 5th, you are a bad player. Hands down.

I do not think the effort in countering MSS was in proportion considering the cost. e.g. if you play Khorne Daemons. You can't outshoot Necrons, you may have a hard time out maneuvering them, and if one of your characters gets into combat well they are fethed due to being LD9/8.
There isn't anything else for any other army that causes such problems, and its only 15 points.

Now Necron players will not have an auto-take upgrade, and will actually have to think about keeping their characters out of close combat with the special characters/monsters who cost 2-3 times what they do.

Yeah, I fully expect Overlords and Destroyer Lords to gain the same skill and knowledge of having superior CC upgrades and stats that Space Marine Chapter Masters enjoy.

I'm joking obviously, no one is allowed to have non-MC normal characters as good as a Chapter Master in CC

Strawman.

Necrons are not supposed to be able to reliably beat a Bloodthirster or Abaddon. MSS was anti-fluff.

I'm sorry am I missing something here

Your example of Khorne army doesn't seem to match up with the "cost 2-3 times" bit. Not sure about posting the points values here but I'm not seeing anything that costs 2-3 times more than a fully kitted OL with MSS but has to run scared. I still run OLs from Abby and the like. Hell, I even run away from TWC if there are too many. If I do end up in CC with those units it's because I have nothing to lose by that stage.

I think most people here have covered how you can easily deal with MSS (large units, random selection of model etc).

 Galorian wrote:

Tomb Blades were fairly good for their price, their failings were the low squad size limit, the prohibitive upgrade costs and the fact they competed for the same FOC slot as the Wraiths.

I don't think they were good for their cost. Their weapons were too weak.

I know this is outside the standard toolkit, but Charnel Scarabs from IA:12 are good at treating Monstrous Creatures, and in fact essentially everything without AV13 or that's currently airborne, as a mild speedbump. Not sure how easily compatible they'll be with the new Codex though.

...Actually, I'm not sure how Compatible IA: 12 is in general. The units that say "This thing counts as a Fast Attack choice in Codex Necrons" are simple enough, but what about things like Kutlakh the World Killer being able to take a Royal Court?

changemod wrote:
I know this is outside the standard toolkit, but Charnel Scarabs from IA:12 are good at treating Monstrous Creatures, and in fact essentially everything without AV13 or that's currently airborne, as a mild speedbump. Not sure how easily compatible they'll be with the new Codex though.

...Actually, I'm not sure how Compatible IA: 12 is in general. The units that say "This thing counts as a Fast Attack choice in Codex Necrons" are simple enough, but what about things like Kutlakh the World Killer being able to take a Royal Court?

Kutlakh could still take a 'Royal Court of Maynarkh' which consists of Maynarkh Lords and Crypteks (see Necron-Codex)

What I wonder is how it works with rules like Phaeron.
It now has a description in IA12 and the new Codex; would the Codex overrule that description in IA12?

Eyjio wrote:


Skill and knowledge = lucky rolling so your guys aren't instagibbed now? Hmm.

You obviously don't know why MSS weren't as good as many thought. Thanks for proving my point. Google "counterplay MSS 40k".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Chad Warden wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

The opposite is the case. If you were not able to play around MSS in 5th, you are a bad player. Hands down.

I do not think the effort in countering MSS was in proportion considering the cost.

Oh, yes, they definitely were too cheap. 20-25 pts would have been ideal.

Kangodo wrote:

changemod wrote:
I know this is outside the standard toolkit, but Charnel Scarabs from IA:12 are good at treating Monstrous Creatures, and in fact essentially everything without AV13 or that's currently airborne, as a mild speedbump. Not sure how easily compatible they'll be with the new Codex though.

...Actually, I'm not sure how Compatible IA: 12 is in general. The units that say "This thing counts as a Fast Attack choice in Codex Necrons" are simple enough, but what about things like Kutlakh the World Killer being able to take a Royal Court?

Kutlakh could still take a 'Royal Court of Maynarkh' which consists of Maynarkh Lords and Crypteks (see Necron-Codex)

What I wonder is how it works with rules like Phaeron.
It now has a description in IA12 and the new Codex; would the Codex overrule that description in IA12?

I bought enough Canoptek units to make a 2000 point unbound list before, so I'm hoping that with a little luck I can make an almost pure Canoptek bound list by using the new Canoptek formation twice to free up enough FOC spaces to take Acanthrites, Charnel Scarabs and Sentry Pylons in my main force.