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 RivenSkull wrote:
I think this got lost in the back, and I never got an answer

Question about Voidblades.

It has both Rending and Entropic Strike. Both of those for the most part are the exact same thing, automatically causing a wound on a 6.

Would that mean that they cause 2 wounds automatically on a 6? If it does, that might make Praetorians MC killers.

Entropic Strike works on vehicles though too, so even if you can't knock off a HP stabbing a Dreadnought with Rending you might take it off with ES.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

I can't fathom how GW thought with a 17 ppm immortal, that 18ppm tomb blades who carry a tl version of the same weapon T5 and a jetbike was reasonable

Immortals can be transported, Tomb Blades can not
Immortals can be repaired, with the right detachment, Tomb Blades can not
Immortals can be joined by Crypteks, Tomb Blades can not
Most impotantly, Bikes cost about twice as much in real money, and didn't sell as well

Are you seriously trying to argue that a tomb blade is reasonably cost?

I take it that your desire to vent overcame your ability to percieve humor/irony/sarcasm

 Orock wrote:
In an edition where it SEEMED they were trying to tone down the power and cheeze, all I can see are really strong units and combinations here. Seriously the necrons made a big gain over their last codex, when everyone else was expecting to be brought in line. I have no idea what GW thinks is game balance, but I no longer look forward to tau and eldar revisions, because this codex will still be in game. I think ill try picking this game up again in 8th edition. What they did to half the codex in this game in the last two years is just wrong.

"We're not selling enough. Make another power codex, with all the models that didn't sell well being powerful and incentive to collect all the options!"

I wouldn't say that Orock. I'd say that it's still in line with the current books. And it's a fairly decent brake on Knights. Overall I think it's going to be good for the meta. The actual point cost is going to keep a lot of this in check. Lots of good options but you can't suddenly take all of them. The points mostly stayed the same outside of pushing barge and flyers up in points.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

Requizen wrote:

Flayed Ones in a Decurion with an Overlord attached. Overlord takes a Warscythe and the Solar Staff, giving them Invisibility for a turn and also brings his own Assault power. Attaching a Cryptek for the 5++ against shooting would be gravy, but starts to push expensive.

If you do this, you lose the Flayed Ones ability to infiltrate (or deepstrike, they have both don't they?), so they are slogging it across the board. I think Flayed Ones are going to remain best on their own, infiltrating with maxed sized units. They'll either draw all of the enemies fire, and still have enough models to go in and disrupt your opponent's backfield (but likely won't dominate), or your opponent will counter charge with his own CC unit, which a maxed sized FO unit is likely going to eat alive or at the very least tie up for several rounds and reduce to virtually no remaining effectiveness.

Either outcome is a win for the Necron player, because every shot fired in panic at the FOs means one less shot at your core army, and the subsequent charge is bound to cause some damage. The counter charge is just as good an option because FO's are the equal to just about every other CC dedicated unit out there in terms of ability per point spent. If 260 points of Flayed Ones ties up a 500+ point deathstar for 2-3 rounds of combat and managed to reduce the deathstar's effectiveness, they have done their job and then some. Just be weary of Dreadnaughts, Knights, or T8 MCs.

Infiltrating a big blob of 20 is a bit difficult though, unless you play with huge LOS blocking buildings all over the place. We play with a lot of ruins and cover, but not a lot of LOS blockers. Some, but not enough to make Infiltrate reliable.

Still, I get your point. Of course, you can always give the Veil of Darkness to Overlord to grant him Deep Strike. I guess the trade off is FOs by themselves can Infiltrate, but don't enjoy a 5++, rerolls to 1s of RP, or Invisibility.

So currently what units are looking bad and which are looking good?
I'm looking to sell my nerfed stuff and pick up the new cheese.

 RivenSkull wrote:
"We're not selling enough. Make another power codex, with all the models that didn't sell well being powerful and incentive to collect all the options!"

That's circular logic.
1. They didn't sell well because they were too weak.
2. Weak units need to be buffed.
3. Buffed units are sold more.

If it was all about money, they wouldn't have buffed Wraiths.
(I am still rofl'ing every time I can say they buffed Wraiths)

 Orock wrote:
In an edition where it SEEMED they were trying to tone down the power and cheeze, all I can see are really strong units and combinations here. Seriously the necrons made a big gain over their last codex, when everyone else was expecting to be brought in line. I have no idea what GW thinks is game balance, but I no longer look forward to tau and eldar revisions, because this codex will still be in game. I think ill try picking this game up again in 8th edition. What they did to half the codex in this game in the last two years is just wrong.

Everyone complained about Tesla and snapshots. GW fixed it.
Everyone complained about cheap Nightscythes and Annhiliation Barges. GW fixed it.
People complained that RP was demoralizing because after they killed Necrons, they had to watch them get back up (purely psychological, but frequently complained about). GW fixed it.
Everyone complained about MSS (whether it was deserved or not) because it was so frustrating. GW fixed it (nerfed it into the ground in fact).

I don't see the grounds for complaint.

Looks like Zhandrekh lost 'Phased Reinforcements'. To me this is huge, but I'm glad that 'Tactics' are surprisingly still in. I had secretly hoped he would go to the LoW instead of Imo to free up the HQ slot, but I'm happy overall.

Can FOs still DS? Can Wraiths? The loss of the Zhandrekh combo means we might still be hurting in the HnA deployment games. (Yes, I've been using FOs, and I'm chuckling now that people are only now considering them to be viable.)

While I think the Deathmarks are nice being able to shoot the turn they arrive, the loss of actually marking means that reserve heavy opponents are happier now forcing us to go first. Also, the seldom used tactic of running 2 Units, with both units killing 1 on the turn they arrived, then actually hunting the other unit down is gone. More for Narrative reasons, but not much else.

Are Warrior units more than 10 still able to get an Ark? Or does the wording include 'If the unit is 10 models or less, they may purchase...' Or something along those lines. I really want to know if I have to pay the 10 model tax, or compete with FA slots to support my blobs.

Edit: Looks like I'm one of the few that feels like Wraiths NEEDED a buff. I'm excited to have a reason to put them on the table.

I think Zhandrek's ability is kind of insane. He can take the 3 unit infiltrating warlord trait turn one, then the re-roll reserve trait turn 2, then be in combat turn 3 with the eternal warrior trait and continue on in that fashion (i'm sure players could come up with more broken combos).

 Akar wrote:
Looks like Zhandrekh lost 'Phased Reinforcements'. To me this is huge, but I'm glad that 'Tactics' are surprisingly still in. I had secretly hoped he would go to the LoW instead of Imo to free up the HQ slot, but I'm happy overall.

Can FOs still DS? Can Wraiths? The loss of the Zhandrekh combo means we might still be hurting in the HnA deployment games. (Yes, I've been using FOs, and I'm chuckling now that people are only now considering them to be viable.)

While I think the Deathmarks are nice being able to shoot the turn they arrive, the loss of actually marking means that reserve heavy opponents are happier now forcing us to go first. Also, the seldom used tactic of running 2 Units, with both units killing 1 on the turn they arrived, then actually hunting the other unit down is gone. More for Narrative reasons, but not much else.

Are Warrior units more than 10 still able to get an Ark? Or does the wording include 'If the unit is 10 models or less, they may purchase...' Or something along those lines. I really want to know if I have to pay the 10 model tax, or compete with FA slots to support my blobs.

Flayed ones can deep strike.
Wraiths can not deep strike, being that they are now beasts.
No... Ghost Arks have always been 10 capacity... now you can't take 5 man warrior squads however.

 buddha wrote:
I think Zhandrek's ability is kind of insane. He can take the 3 unit infiltrating warlord trait turn one, then the re-roll reserve trait turn 2, then be in combat turn 3 with the eternal warrior trait and continue on in that fashion (i'm sure players could come up with more broken combos).

Actually, Zahndrekh starts with a set Warlord Trait (Eternal Madness, which is Zealot ), so he can't choose a trait until the start of Turn 1. Which is too late to Infiltrate, since that's after deployment.

Double. (Seriously, why do people like Apple products)

 Verviedi wrote:
So currently what units are looking bad and which are looking good?
I'm looking to sell my nerfed stuff and pick up the new cheese.

It generally sounds like everything is pretty good with a lot of attention going to the fast attack choices (minus scarabs who are a bit meh compare to their previous incarnation) and elite choices seemed to have gotten quite a bit stronger (namely Lychguard, Praetorians and Flayed Ones).

As for genuinely BAD well, doesn't sound like anything really is (aside from the resorb - debatable - and MSS).

The "Meh" units seem to be:

Scarabs
Annihilation Barges
Monolith
Doomsday Ark
C'tan Shards
Doomscythes
Szeras
...

But none of them are necessarily "bad"

Oh wait, Vargard Obyron and Trazyn are crap and Anrakyr is situational.

Requizen wrote:

 buddha wrote:
I think Zhandrek's ability is kind of insane. He can take the 3 unit infiltrating warlord trait turn one, then the re-roll reserve trait turn 2, then be in combat turn 3 with the eternal warrior trait and continue on in that fashion (i'm sure players could come up with more broken combos).

Actually, Zahndrekh starts with a set Warlord Trait (Eternal Madness, which is Zealot ), so he can't choose a trait until the start of Turn 1. Which is too late to Infiltrate, since that's after deployment.

Ah good catch. Still though, BRB warlord traits especially can be quite powerful and being able to select the one you want each turn is just insane.


I'm also liking Orkir the Diviner in a unit of lychguard. Combine with a bad mother Olord and put in nightscythe, I think we have a pretty unkillable CC unit. Hell with nightmare shroud the Olord will be rocking a 2+ re-rollable in that unit; scary.

We defintely took some hits here, pretty much anything that was above average in effectiveness was nerfed

Scarab Swarms - Nerfed in effectiveness, cost 33% more, smaller max unit size

Cron Air MSU - Warriors went from 5 to 10 min size (+65pts) and Scythes went up 30% (+30pts), Telsa Nerfed

Royal Courts - Despairtek and Stormtek are gone. No more TPing around with Haywire

Anhilation Barges - went up 40pts and had their guns nerfed on jink, which destroys them both being cheap and able to shoot effectively while jinking

Catacomb Command Barges - No more invul save for vehicle, 3++ now 4++, AP 2 instead of AP1, MSS nerfed

MSS - nerfed down to fear

Warscythe - AP 2 instead of AP1

---

Now don't get me wrong, I like how most everything else was buffed to compensate, but we basically got FNP and better assault in a shooty and vehicle heavy edition.

Hey guys. I've been lurking around for the past week or so but never bothered posting, but I feel like taking part in these discussions. Mis valientes guerreros posted a dropbox link to all of the screenshots, which include ones that haven't been posted here(basically just the named characters)https://www.dropbox.com/sh/eqcu5zyw668o31h/AACMO1VVmdcu-6m-WLHFzT9ia?dl=0

 Orock wrote:
In an edition where it SEEMED they were trying to tone down the power and cheeze, all I can see are really strong units and combinations here. Seriously the necrons made a big gain over their last codex, when everyone else was expecting to be brought in line. I have no idea what GW thinks is game balance, but I no longer look forward to tau and eldar revisions, because this codex will still be in game. I think ill try picking this game up again in 8th edition. What they did to half the codex in this game in the last two years is just wrong.

At first glance, that's how it seems, but its dawned on me that as far as external balance goes, GW views all IoM armies as a single entity. Straight up, it sure looks like Necrons will overpower any single IoM army out there, but you have to consider those other options. IoM can add assassins, Inquisitors, and Knights without any major hurdles, and these can very much swing the balance back in favor of the IoM. Sadly, it truly feels like I'm being forced to add other IoM factions to my Crimson Fists (I already have an Vindicaire assassin and an Inquisitor, may have to add a Knight).

As for the other Xenos, I feel Necrons match up well with Eldar and Tau. The jury is still out when it comes to horde armies, I think they may have some trouble there. If nothing else, Necrons certainly shake up the standard builds for most armies (including their own).

So I have a question. How does everyone feel about lychguard vs praetorians? IMO I like sword and board lychguard currently, but I'm also looking at the 2 praetorians and one stalker formation and it looks super good. So would it be better to use praetorians over lychguard?

And some other questions: how does everyone feel about imotekh? To me he seems a little alright, but I don't think hes on par with the other chapter master lord of wars. However, he doesn't take up an HQ slot, which is helpful.
On the topic of HQs, I think Zandrekh and Orikan are now my favorites in that slot. I'm a little disappointed at Orikan keeping a 4+ armor when empowered, but his stats are awesome. I'm not sure if I missed it, but can Zahndrekh take Mephryt dynasty traits? I'm also pretty sad about Trazyn and Obyron.
Also flayed ones, should I use them? They seem pretty good, but not $90 for ten finecast models good. I saw that conversion somebody posted, but I'm not sure if I should do that.

How does everyone feel about the stalker? Is it worth it?

Another thing, am I the only person that loves the new nightbringer c'tan shard? Sure it's not competitive, but I really likd the whole randomness for when I'm playing games with friends(also did we get a verdict on whether it shoots twice?)

toonkirby wrote:
Hey guys. I've been lurking around for the past week or so but never bothered posting, but I feel like taking part in these discussions. Mis valientes guerreros posted a dropbox link to all of the screenshots, which include ones that haven't been posted here(basically just the named characters)https://www.dropbox.com/sh/eqcu5zyw668o31h/AACMO1VVmdcu-6m-WLHFzT9ia?dl=0

Thanks! Well it's confirmed that the obelisk and the vault are lords of war which isn't as fun.

 Hulksmash wrote:
I wouldn't say that Orock. I'd say that it's still in line with the current books. And it's a fairly decent brake on Knights. Overall I think it's going to be good for the meta. The actual point cost is going to keep a lot of this in check. Lots of good options but you can't suddenly take all of them. The points mostly stayed the same outside of pushing barge and flyers up in points.

Well said, as usual, Hulk.

There is a ton of good stuff to be excited about, however Necrons do lose Haywireteks, and NS and ABs and CCBs were considerably toned down. They all needed it, don't get me wrong, but keep in mind these 4 units were pretty much 90% of the competitive seen.

Honestly, it's just a really, really solid Dex so far. I mean, playtime will give us more evidence, however the internal balance seems quite strong, but nothing seems to bu jumping out as completely broken, either. What mean by that is, I'd feel pretty confident both playing with and facing the current Dex.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

 Orock wrote:
In an edition where it SEEMED they were trying to tone down the power and cheeze, all I can see are really strong units and combinations here. Seriously the necrons made a big gain over their last codex, when everyone else was expecting to be brought in line. I have no idea what GW thinks is game balance, but I no longer look forward to tau and eldar revisions, because this codex will still be in game. I think ill try picking this game up again in 8th edition. What they did to half the codex in this game in the last two years is just wrong.

At first glance, that's how it seems, but its dawned on me that as far as external balance goes, GW views all IoM armies as a single entity. Straight up, it sure looks like Necrons will overpower any single IoM army out there, but you have to consider those other options. IoM can add assassins, Inquisitors, and Knights without any major hurdles, and these can very much swing the balance back in favor of the IoM. Sadly, it truly feels like I'm being forced to add other IoM factions to my Crimson Fists (I already have an Vindicaire assassin and an Inquisitor, may have to add a Knight).

As for the other Xenos, I feel Necrons match up well with Eldar and Tau. The jury is still out when it comes to horde armies, I think they may have some trouble there. If nothing else, Necrons certainly shake up the standard builds for most armies (including their own).

This definitely rings true. Playing Grey Knights, I can absolutely attest to the fact that certain other IoM armies feel like they fit lock and key, with filling the completely obvious gaps in the GK Codex.

I know GW designers are often hit or miss, but when say, Adepta Sororitas and GK perfectly fill the weaknesses of the other, its like they damn near intended all IoM armies to be allied with another of their lot.

Obyron has once per game Ghostwalk Mantle and is cheaper. Two teleporting units are a go, even if he kinda sucks due to not having an invulnerable but hey, that's not new.

toonkirby wrote:
So I have a question. How does everyone feel about lychguard vs praetorians? IMO I like sword and board lychguard currently, but I'm also looking at the 2 praetorians and one stalker formation and it looks super good. So would it be better to use praetorians over lychguard?

And some other questions: how does everyone feel about imotekh? To me he seems a little alright, but I don't think hes on par with the other chapter master lord of wars. However, he doesn't take up an HQ slot, which is helpful.
On the topic of HQs, I think Zandrekh and Orikan are now my favorites in that slot. I'm a little disappointed at Orikan keeping a 4+ armor when empowered, but his stats are awesome. I'm not sure if I missed it, but can Zahndrekh take Mephryt dynasty traits? I'm also pretty sad about Trazyn and Obyron.
Also flayed ones, should I use them? They seem pretty good, but not $90 for ten finecast models good. I saw that conversion somebody posted, but I'm not sure if I should do that.

How does everyone feel about the stalker? Is it worth it?

Another thing, am I the only person that loves the new nightbringer c'tan shard? Sure it's not competitive, but I really likd the whole randomness for when I'm playing games with friends(also did we get a verdict on whether it shoots twice?)

I'm feeling the sword and board lychguard with a cryptek. Tough enough to hold up some Thunderwolf cavalry for a while methinks.
Loving the Stalker. Always wanted to use the model, but it was so over-costed. Now it's just right
I love the new Nightbringer as well. He's far from top tier, but I adore his abilities and I've always loved that model.

 Anpu-adom wrote:


Who knew that Necrons would go from a shooty based army to one that has so much assault potential?

Certainly noone who picked up Necrons years ago before they got "cool". The new Codex:Necron is about as Necron as Sarah Palin is an accurate representation of the US.

Praetorians can take a Night Scythe as a dedicated transport, but the Night Scythe doesn't seem to state it can carry Jump Infantry, unless I'm overlooking the obvious.

Oh hey, Obyron kept the Ghostwalk Mantle. For some reason I thought he lost it.

Actually, considering he got a 40 point price drop, I think he's pretty strong now. I know cleaving counter blow only works in challenges, now, but 40 points seems like a fair trade for that loss.

Edit, on second look, I think he lost a Wound, as well. That does make him pretty damn pricey for a 2 wound unit.

However, now that Veil is only a one take, if you want a second, he's pretty much your only option.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Anpu-adom wrote:


Who knew that Necrons would go from a shooty based army to one that has so much assault potential?

Certainly noone who picked up Necrons years ago before they got "cool". The new Codex:Necron is about as Necron as Sarah Palin is an accurate representation of the US.

Based on some Americans on political forums she is representative of at least a portion of the US sorry bud.

I'm interested, even if my army is 6 wraiths 3 A Barges and 2 CCB's and 40 warriors scarabs and a doomsday ark, its basically looking like I'm going to have to purchase an awful lot of stuff to be viable.

 Orock wrote:
In an edition where it SEEMED they were trying to tone down the power and cheeze, all I can see are really strong units and combinations here. Seriously the necrons made a big gain over their last codex, when everyone else was expecting to be brought in line. I have no idea what GW thinks is game balance, but I no longer look forward to tau and eldar revisions, because this codex will still be in game. I think ill try picking this game up again in 8th edition. What they did to half the codex in this game in the last two years is just wrong.

Games workshop sees game balance as whatever will sell models. They give cool units, Riptide, WK, etc to sell and then nerf existing builds and boost crap units to make them sell. Its a great marketing strategy, just a crappy balance one.

toonkirby wrote:
So I have a question. How does everyone feel about lychguard vs praetorians? IMO I like sword and board lychguard currently, but I'm also looking at the 2 praetorians and one stalker formation and it looks super good. So would it be better to use praetorians over lychguard?

And some other questions: how does everyone feel about imotekh? To me he seems a little alright, but I don't think hes on par with the other chapter master lord of wars. However, he doesn't take up an HQ slot, which is helpful.
On the topic of HQs, I think Zandrekh and Orikan are now my favorites in that slot. I'm a little disappointed at Orikan keeping a 4+ armor when empowered, but his stats are awesome. I'm not sure if I missed it, but can Zahndrekh take Mephryt dynasty traits? I'm also pretty sad about Trazyn and Obyron.
Also flayed ones, should I use them? They seem pretty good, but not $90 for ten finecast models good. I saw that conversion somebody posted, but I'm not sure if I should do that.

How does everyone feel about the stalker? Is it worth it?

Another thing, am I the only person that loves the new nightbringer c'tan shard? Sure it's not competitive, but I really likd the whole randomness for when I'm playing games with friends(also did we get a verdict on whether it shoots twice?)

I like Praetorians a bit more. Sword and Shield Lychguards are great bodyguard units for Overlords/Lords kitted out for assault, but I think we have better Assault options right now. Warscythe Lychguard have a place as well, though, but they need HQ support so they don't die without their Shields. Praetorians seem a bit more reasonable - Not great at killing vehicles, but more mobile and have an AP2 shooting attack. That's not bad. Lychguard basically either need a Veil of Darkness or a Night Scythe to get to backfield units, Praetorians can kind of do it by themselves.

I LOVE Imotekh now. Lord of the Storm isn't as powerful in shooting, but it's a big 48" bubble of pain for the entire game now, not just during Night Fight. He has a great gun, and his boost to Deep Striking Flayed Ones actually means something now that Flayed Ones are playable. With a 2+/4++/5+++ (Which is probably going to be a 4+++) and the set Reserve Manipulation Warlord Trait, he's a steal for 190 points. Sure, he's not an Assault badass or anything, but he has a lot going for him imo.

Convert them from Warriors. There was a video floating around that looked quick and easy.

I think the Stalker is nice now. 125 is still pretty steep for one shot on a vehicle that can't Jink and doesn't have a save, but the +1BS has its uses.

Nightbringer is the only C'Tan I'd consider using. Deceiver has some uses, but I don't really care too much about the redeploy (doesn't matter if you deploy second, I guess except against Scout) and the -LD is only situationally nice. The Trans-C'tan is ok with the better statline, but Writhing Worldscape isn't as good anymore and Deep Strike is only ok. His shooting isn't good enough to be scary, and I'm not extremely entertained by his Assault. Nightbringer is the best of the bunch, with Fleshbane (makes him great against MCs and what not) and Psychic Shriek.