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It's just my impression, or BA are now just red painted space marine?
that's not a bad thing: lower cost of some items, whirlwind, and grav-gun...

but i got the feeling they lost they're "special taste"
they're no more "special assault army, fast and able to quickly go in melee". Now they are just red SM with a FC chapter ability

or i'm wrong?
what can be used to make an army who really "feels like blood angels" and not just a flavoured sm with a fancy name?

There's the Baal Strike Force detachment. I think it loses objective secured on the troops, though.

Well, I find the codex is not that bad.
I'd prefer BA any day when compared with vanilla Marines.
Just take the minimum requirement for troops.
Fill the rest with DC, fast trilas Predators, and whatnot.
Not sure about the HQ as I like to use it in a supporting role, so either Priests or Libbies.

But the vanilla marines can field a better HtH model in the form of smashbane. Ironic, indeed.

Heavy Flamers on Tacs?

PG/MG on ASM?

Substantially improved melee?

Fast Rhinos?

Any one might not be enough, but put them all together, and it's awesome.

I think the word "awesome" can not be attached to this codex in anyway. Except maybe awesomely adequate or awesomely uninspiring.

Awesomely bland

Enough of a fluff distinction to make them stand out, not enough to justify their own codex, in my opinion.

Yeah that's what i was thinking
not bad
way better than using a 4 year old army book
however, not so much distinctive
they are just, as i'm used to say, Red Coloured Space Marine

i'd like to test the new detachment; now i can use a couple of death company WITH jump pack, a full fledged 10 man sanguinary guard, and maybe also a dread libby
one tactical, either on rhino or as 10 men behind a fortification (maybe both), and perhaps one scout

however, the lack of super scoring abilities could make that not a good choice :-\

or using a standard detachment with 3-4 tactical on rhino/razorback, a big assault punch (ie termies on lr, a 15-men dc with jp, etc) and a couple of las predator to cover them up. One or 2 libby, or maybe nerfiston, just to spice up the game.
Also some dreadnaught if i got enough points
This could be better for more tactical game. However, this is what you would expect from any space marine :\

 Jimsolo wrote:
Enough of a fluff distinction to make them stand out, not enough to justify their own codex, in my opinion.

They have their own codex because they have so many unique Characters and units now.

Think it depends, what ever someone starts them or not. If someone already had a BA army this one is horrible, but if someone starts from scratch or had some normal marine models it could be good. It doesn't look bad at first glance that is for sure.

AlexRae wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
Enough of a fluff distinction to make them stand out, not enough to justify their own codex, in my opinion.

They have their own codex because they have so many unique Characters and units now.

The old codex was even more unique, but the blandening happened, so now we're some % closer to being just a chapter tactic and a few pages of unique units/characters in the main sm book. Plus a few easy money making data slates or a supplement for things they "left out."

I could sit around thinking up all kinds if lists in the old book. They weren't all good, but they were at least theme-y. High armor spam, jump assault force, dantewing, the A team (my own silly list with a pod of corbulo, a chap, Seth, Tycho, and some ASM backed up by fire support on the back line,) Mephiston alone waiting for an almost all-reserve force, drop pod rain, razorback herd, all death company, dreadnought spam, and then of course the more varied highlander style stuff.

Now it's like I get out my paper, write "2x taxtical/scout squads" and just sit there like I'm trying to write a book report that's due tomorrow.

I can at least think of: 20 scouts combat squaded infiltrate right in face, 3 pods of 5 man asm with 2 melta each to nix any transports or wipe out anything overly good at anti-MEQ, and a couple full jump DC units led by asty jumping and running up while they deal with all the potential turn 2 s5i5 charges

lol Yes! I write down...

Sanguinary Priest
2 5 man tacs in pods

And am stuck for what to back it up with.

Hopefully the Exterminatus expansion gives us something better to work with

Makumba wrote:
Think it depends, what ever someone starts them or not. If someone already had a BA army this one is horrible, but if someone starts from scratch or had some normal marine models it could be good. It doesn't look bad at first glance that is for sure.

luckily i bought only one land raider and used cheper cardboard models...
however, i got 4x razorback and 2x 10 man asm with magnetised jump pack, and now i will need to proxy them as dc or tactical :(

each-uisge wrote:
It's just my impression, or BA are now just red painted space marine?
that's not a bad thing: lower cost of some items, whirlwind, and grav-gun...

but i got the feeling they lost they're "special taste"
they're no more "special assault army, fast and able to quickly go in melee". Now they are just red SM with a FC chapter ability

or i'm wrong?
what can be used to make an army who really "feels like blood angels" and not just a flavoured sm with a fancy name?

They've always been (going back even to 2E) a Codex Adherent chapter with a taste for CC, which the new book depicts rather well, as opposed to a completely assault oriented "Speed Freaks" chapter. The last book did a lot of re-writing and exaggeration of previous traits to make them into something different to justify why they needed their own book. GW appears to largely be removing Mat Ward's influence from army books as much as is possible (that isn't set in immortal plastic) and the rollback with BA's is just one of the most visible aspect of that thus far, given how much he changed them.

 Jimsolo wrote:
Enough of a fluff distinction to make them stand out, not enough to justify their own codex, in my opinion.

My thinking exactly.

I've always been a proponent of one loyalist marine book, and one chaos marine book.

Is grav guns, lower costs (experienced by every dex update), and a whirlwind really making you think they're the same as vanilla?

No offense, that's sort if ridiculous. The only argument I see is ASMs are no longer troops. Besides that...DC, DC dreads, SG, Baals, characters, unique detachment, awesome wargear, the list goes on.

If you can find a common, effective BA list that has a close vanilla equivalent I'd agree with you. However, every suggested list I've seen cannot be replicated by C:SM.

You're right... Vanilla marine lists beat blood angel ones

Blood Angels have always been red Space Marines with some berserkers. Since the SoB book came out, they've become red Space Marines with some berserkers and Girl Tactics.

 UnadoptedPuppy wrote:
Is grav guns, lower costs (experienced by every dex update), and a whirlwind really making you think they're the same as vanilla?

not much
but removing and nerfing the priest, removing buffing chapelain, DoA and LR dedicated transport, that's added to having "standard" unit identical to space marine with FC as chapter tactic is something make me think about it

the only difference between raven guard is BA got DC and no Centurion. Ravenguard, for instance, can be more close combat assault marines 'cause they can move AND charge with pack whil we can only move OR charge...

i could be wrong of course: i just read the army list, and did'nt try it on the field; maybe in the end will work fine and dramatically different.
however, i don't feel like could be more resilient to Tau's or AM's (or aything else than Tyranid, i suppose ) shooting phase than normal SM
nor more rapid assaulting, close combat oriented, or heavy vehicle equipped!

at least Wolves got brick-looking flying vehicle and freezing gun!!

Red Marines do not have a DC just a mediocre Assault unit.
The new BA Assault unit is better than this.

I like some of the Blood Angels changes, but I can see that it would be exceedingly frustrating for someone who has already bought an army of assault marines now being left without any troops.

Having a heavy flamer in Tactical squads will make mobility with them a good option. Flamer, heavy flamer, and a Rhino will allow the drive by burning that Sisters use. If you use the Baal strikeforce FOC you get the equivalent of their 3rd edition furious charge, which is beneficial to dedicate assault units like jump pack Death Company, hitting hard and hitting first a lot of the time.

Every 7th edition codex released so far has been toned down to a more "average" codex level. GW actually being concerned with some sort of balance is a surprise to me, and I'm not quite sure what to make of it.

Man there's just so much negatively for an army I'm going to assume you guys haven't even played yet. For how much people complained about the old dex being unplayable y'all should be stoked about this one.

@Pain4Pleasure I was referring to list composition ...

@each-uisge How do you remove AND nerf a unit that is still an excellent force multiplier? Priets are more limited, but not less effective. Yes, ravenguard may be able to move and charge, but BA gets old school furious charge (+1 S and I) which is MASSIVE. They are absolutely more combat oriented than C:SM. Fast transports, furious charge on...everything, SG, DC.

Seriously if you guys are having a hard time seeing the difference between C:SM and BA I don't know what to tell you. I for one an excited about the dex, but maybe that's just me.

So, let's see

Fast Vehicles

Unique HQs, and I should mention, a good number of them

Unique Dreadnaughts - Furioso, Librarian, DC Dreadnought

Exclusive units - Death Company, Sanguinary Guard

Exclusive Vehicle - Baal Predator

Exclusive Powers

And they are totally vanilla marines because they can't field as many ASM as before?

Right, carry on then.

Martel732 wrote:
But the vanilla marines can field a better HtH model in the form of smashbane. Ironic, indeed.

Arguable. EW is needed on the blood angel, and AP2, which pretty much leaves you with Dante, but, well new Dante is a beast.

Haven't got his stats to do the mathhammer, but Dante will give him a run a for his money, especially if he charges and can get a shot off before hand.

And this isn't taking into account the potential accompanying squads of each, SM bikers aren't that scary when they're being charged by boosted death company...

Marines also have the gravstar and bikers as troops. It's all good, though. Being marines -1 is okay after being marines +1 for so long. I still feel like most Xeno lists will own the BA, but we'll see.

Vanilla Marines can take 2 Chapter Masters on Bikes and a Command Squad.

They are level when it comes to assault threat.

But they far exceed BA when it comes to shooting and Troop efficiency.

Which is why the BA book is Marines -1.

AlexRae wrote:
Vanilla Marines can take 2 Chapter Masters on Bikes and a Command Squad.

They are level when it comes to assault threat.

Uh...so because they have a few powerful HQ builds and bike command squads the codex's are equal in assault threat? No.
Look at the melee prowess of pretty much every BA HQ. Beyond HQs the BA have many more dedicated assault units (and an assault oriented chapter tactic). What's the best vanilla melee unit? TH/SS termies? Assault centurions? C'mon, guy, did you even read the BA dex?

Man I gotta leave this thread. I don't know if it's ignorance, resist to change, or just plain internet hate, but I can't understand how people don't see the great stuff this codex has to offer.

Because its the GW codex release style: rumors - sky is falling, wishlisting - pre-release - overall dislike/codex stinks/will never be playable - release - small period of quiet where people actually play games - general acceptance/slotting in to perceived 'tier' and spam builds hit the net. Repeat for next codex.

Considering I've been playing my Flesh Tearers as C:SM with the Carcharadons chapter tactics (and enjoying it immensely), I'm looking forward to the new codex. I've never built any army to the 'intrawebz optimal build', since 2nd edition, and so my existing Flesh Tearers army fits perfectly within the new codex boundaries. At best, I swap around some back packs for jump packs, or vice versa, and I'm golden.

I just wish it was easier to ge my hands on the cards, and the hardback mission books. I blinked and they were sold out. Otherwise, I'm rather excited about the codex.

 UnadoptedPuppy wrote:
Man I gotta leave this thread. I don't know if it's ignorance, resist to change, or just plain internet hate, but I can't understand how people don't see the great stuff this codex has to offer.

You could do that, or you could back up your argument.

What's a good list? Pick a normal points level (1500, 1750, or 1850) that you're the most comfortable with and show how you think this is a good codex. It doesn't have to be perfect, or the future netlist of the Blood Angels, just a list that isn't a complete joke when going up against the other good lists out there. I'm not trying to trap you to score a cheap rhetoric point, I'm genuinely curious to what you envision as your army when you describe this codex as full of great stuff. All I'm able to come up with is either complete garbage, or Codex Space Marines -1. And there's nothing I want more right now than to be proven wrong.