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 Quickjager wrote:
You know that's an interesting idea buff the riptide and make it a superheavy walker, like an Imperial Knight.

Yeah I was thinking about that.

It would limit you to taking a single cheap lord of war unless you go unbound.

As it is supposed to be a type of experimental unit.
i think unlocking 1 per hq would be interesting.

Keep it MC its fine. just drop it down to T5 so you could at least ID it. considering broadsides are still T4 and is way more massive than crisis suits.

The Ion needs to be 20 points minimum. probably more.

FNP should cost a bit more but its already very expensive on it.

FNP should not be takeable on Nova. and 90% of the complaints should go away i feel.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:


Dark Eldar lack these things. All of their guns are short range and low strength. Their only good AT gun (still short range) can only be used by scourges. The army very deliberately had all of its AT grenades removed.

Dark Eldar have lances, blasters (which have Lance), and heat lances (lance and melta). It's not uncommon at all to see a 2k DE list with 25 or more anti-tank guns.

DE also historically have a very strong and noticeable trait. They can deal with very big, very scary things, and do very poorly against lots of mediocre things. They can look at a 4 Land Raider list and destroy it decisively and exceedingly quickly, but will fall apart against an IG chimera gunline, just as they can look at a Riptide and tear it to pieces (massed poisoned attacks and lots of AP2 fire) but will fall very quickly to Fire Warriors (where the poisoned attacks are still only wounding their T3 on 4's and the S5 guns hitting back wound DE infantry on 2's and are effective against their tanks as well).

Not every army has cheap and easy access to hull point stripping guns.

Most do however, and DE certainly don't lack for anti-tank guns.

CC is dead. I was playing when you could walk your chainsword wielding maniacs across the board and win. What you have now is a cat and mouse game in which the goal is to avoid being shot at at all in order to get the chance to charge.

Yes, walking chainsword wielding maniacs across the board and hoping to win by swamping your opponent with a line of assault troops is largely dead outside of a couple of Ork and Tyranid builds. Yes, that's dead.

However other CC builds do just fine, Necron Lords in Warrior units with Ghost Arks supported by Wraiths and Catacomb Overlords is highly effective, SW TWC armies do pretty well, etc. There are armies that utilize close combat *very* effectively.

And either way, as I explained above, you don't need a dedicated CC unit to kill tanks in CC. A depleted remnant squad of Space Marines is still a very real and lethal threat to any tank that isn't as superheavy, so if they can, they're going to charge it and put some hurt on. A half-strength squad of SM's with no powerfist is on average putting on 1.66HP's on most tanks simply with 5 krak grenades, if the thing's already been immobilized or even just taken a single glancing hit already, it's probably dead.

My main issue last few games has been me taking a balanced army with an average amount of bodies and being owned purely because my opponent takes the absolute bare minimum infantry and takes all tanks. Hence they just autowin because unless you build your entire army around AT or play an army with easy access to units that can deal with tanks its impossible to deal with them.

That's been a fairly common tactic in every edition and has nothing to do with tanks being especially hard to kill in 7E (they're not, you don't see non-skimmer tank heavy armies placing well). You saw the exact same armies in 3E, in 4E, in 5E, and in 6E. It's a very common and viable method of building an army, go big or go home, bring all of one unit type and few or none of another. You'll see IG armies that are either all tanks or no tanks for this same reason, you overload the capabilities of one weapon type that they have insufficient numbers of, and leave the investment in other types of weapons pointless.

That's nothing new, nor is 7E even the edition where it's been its most effective.

Also, autocannons? You clearly haven't played a HH game against a Spartan and four land raiders all with armoured ceramite. That sort of army laughs at your AT.

Which is distinctly different from a typical list you'd normally see and is designed to be played against other HH army lists (almost all other Space Marine lists barring the new Solar Auxilia and Mechanicum lists) which have all sorts of different counters to that. Such armies are not balanced around fighting other 40k armies in the first place, but rather other 40k armies, and FW has made that quite clear.

That's an entirely different metagame than everything else.

Totalwar1402 wrote:Are you sure you're playing the right edition?

It's an edition of the mind.

Tanks look flimsy now if you solipsistically obsess about hull points. Meanwhile, if you live in a world where CC is MUCH less likely to happen (and those units that can consistently pull it off ruin everything, not just tanks), and frag grenades can no longer hurt vehicles at all, and the vehicle damage table is FAR more generous, which means you're much less likely to be destroyed in a single shot, or stunlocked if you're not, well, then tanks do look a lot better.

Especially compared to infantry. What 6th and 7th did to vehicles pales in comparison to what they did to hordes. You had it right to begin with. A single one-issue poster trying to make the world agree with long-held preconceived beliefs shouldn't have an outsized influence.

@ the walker debate.

I'm actually fine with suits being infantry. Broadsides are a stretch, but now that we have centurions, it's less so. They could definitely stand to be in line with, say, warwalkers, though. They keep the guns, lose the Sv, and take a healthy price cut.

The riptide could also, perhaps, stay as a monstrous creature, but the 2+/3++ W6 needs to end, and end immediately. Either they should get the guns and the save and drop to W3, or get the guns and the W6 and get dropped to Sv4+/ - ++. The point of heavy infantry is to have good Sv. The point of monstrous creatures is to have high W. Having both at the same time breaks MCs, especially when they're tau MCs, that get tons of gadgets for free and no-thought upgrades that let you point and click your problems away.

 Ailaros wrote:


Tanks look flimsy now if you solipsistically obsess about hull points.

Given that they're the primary kill mechanic for vehicles, far more than the damage table even in the last edition (and even compared to 5E's more punitive damage table HP stripping is typically much more effective), that's what's relevant when you're talking about vehicle survivability

Meanwhile, if you live in a world where CC is MUCH less likely to happen (and those units that can consistently pull it off ruin everything, not just tanks),

Nowhere did I say that 7E was a CC edition, however I did point out that its certainly not dead in and of itself (just that you can't throw waves of shock infantry across the board and expect them to get stuck in in one piece and expect to win) as there are several common and powerful CC units that make routine appearances (Wraiths, TWC's, TH/SS termi's, all sorts of MC's, etc) with great success, and additionaly just how easy it was for common basic equipment on even a depleted (and not CC oriented) basic troops unit (which has every reasonable potential of being in a position to assault a tank on turn 2 if it podded in) can present a very lethal threat to a tank.

I noticed you didn't bother to refute or argue either point.

and frag grenades can no longer hurt vehicles at all

Several things here.

First, frag grenades were only able to hurt vehicles in a single edition, 5th. We're in 7th now.

Second, most units with Frag grenades are also paired with krak grenades (which are basic equipment on half the armies in the game and available at very low cost to others).

Third, most units which have access to them but aren't also coming equipped with Krak grenades typically either have much scarier things to hurt vehicles with in CC or weren't going to be charging vehicles in the first place (e.g. IG infantry units).

Fourth, Frag Grenades iwere never much of a threat by themselves, as a full 10man squad charging with frag grenades in 5E averaged 1 glance (and couldn't penetrate at all), basically enough to keep it from shooting for one turn, maybe immobilize it or take a weapon off if you got lucky. Meanwhile a unit with Krak grenades in the current edition will average 3.33 HP's (and 2.22 penetrating hits on average), enough to kill anything and everything from a Trukk to a Leman Russ in a single round on average dice, and that's a huge difference.

Frag grenades not being able to hurt vehicles is is a trivial irrelevance.

and the vehicle damage table is FAR more generous, which means you're much less likely to be destroyed in a single shot, or stunlocked if you're not

You're just as likely to be stunlocked in 7E as you were in 6E, and while less so than 5E, it's still entirely possible and the average vehicle lifespan is shorter as well. Yeah, there's far less capability to blow a tank up with a single shot that you used to, but the damage table hasn't been the primary kill mechanic since 5E, and even relative to 5E's damage table, with most weapons against most targets, you're still far more likely to kill through HP loss than by inflicting a kill result on the damage table. It's only when you get into AP1 weapons with very high S or armor pen capabilities that the damage table becomes a consistently viable (as opposed to hail mary) vehicle kill option over HP stripping.

Especially compared to infantry. What 6th and 7th did to vehicles pales in comparison to what they did to hordes.

There are hordes that still do just fine, like blob squads, and there are others that do not, not much has fundamentally changed for them except arms creep. Either way, something of a tangent when we were talking about MC's and vehicles in the first place in regards to the differences between the Riptide's survivability and those of vehicles.

You had it right to begin with. A single one-issue poster trying to make the world agree with long-held preconceived beliefs shouldn't have an outsized influence.

Do you ever not take a chance to get in those rather unsubtle personal attacks? Seriously, did I run over your dog or something at some point?

Well I think that, as usual (see: Wave Serpent), the really unbalanced stuff with Tau is stuff the designers did not think through, or rules exploits I doubt that they intended.

That means the Riptide 2+ armour save and cheap ion accelerator in the first case, and the idiotic Buffmander with no guns and one commander attaching to a million marker drones in the second.

Get rid of those things, and a) Tau will be a lot less unbalanced and b) a lot of Tau armies will be a lot less stupid

Tau are really not much of a problem anymore. They are a mid tier army that still shoots a lot. With the exception of mostly riptides and broadsides (some vehicles too) they are fragile. Their big guns do little without support.

Drone swarms with marker lights are expensive. Pathfinders have very low mobility and die to a stiff breeze. The army struggles to handle heavy vehicles. They have some options in that regard but by taking them their trademark massed s7 shooting gets severely limited.

The codex is one of medium tier power and they do not perform outstanding at the higher levels even when taking allies. They are seemingly stuck as favorite punching bags, but apparantly no one will be content until the codex is unplayable just because of the Taudar shenanigans of 6th.

Ratflinger wrote:
Tau are really not much of a problem anymore. They are a mid tier army that still shoots a lot. With the exception of mostly riptides and broadsides (some vehicles too) they are fragile. Their big guns do little without support.

Drone swarms with marker lights are expensive. Pathfinders have very low mobility and die to a stiff breeze. The army struggles to handle heavy vehicles. They have some options in that regard but by taking them their trademark massed s7 shooting gets severely limited.

The codex is one of medium tier power and they do not perform outstanding at the higher levels even when taking allies. They are seemingly stuck as favorite punching bags, but apparantly no one will be content until the codex is unplayable just because of the Taudar shenanigans of 6th.

100% agree with you. People just think it is cool to hate on Tau. Since 7th, when I play my Tau cs armies like CSM and Orks, I only win about 50% of the time, so how is that imbalanced?
Other armies like SM, SW, Necrons, Daemons and GKs deserve more hate than Tau.

I would nerf SMS to 24 inches.
Reduce slots on the commander to something like 3 total toys.
Give most things in the dex a small points increase.

While you're fixing Tau take the nerf bat to Eldar also.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Not really, tanks are stupidly difficult to kill in 7th edition.

And that's why everyone's running dreadnoughts and deff dreads left and right...wait...

I think you just need to proxy it as having av13-12-10 3 HP - the protection walkers get at such point levels. And you'll change your mind.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Not really, tanks are stupidly difficult to kill in 7th edition.

With my own tanks I barely even notice things like weapon destroyed and shaken. They're so tough that its a minor price to pay

vehicles are stupid easy to kill...what game are you playing?

Skimmers with 3+ jink saves in the open and flyers are an exception, but vehicles practically auto-die in CC and require about half the average number of shots to kill that you would have needed in 5e.

Actually Tau are the best equipped to totally rape Skimmers with 3+ Jink Saves in the open. And they're the only ones afaik.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Statistics say that Tau are still top tier.

I wouldn't change much about them, maybe make blacksun filters optional - yet very cheap, and then figure something out so that they're not the only codex that has access to all the special rules.

I mean it's quite ridiculous as an Eldar to be told your army is OP, when any Tau can totally wreck you on account of having great access to ignores cover.

It's a bit dumb too that all of that Eldar might simply rides on cover saves.

Right now it feels like all the ignores cover has been given to Tau so my Mech has a hard time against them but doesn't really fear anything but CC against other factions.


It would also be nice if they weren't the only ones to just have access to all the Skyfire and Interceptor in the world... I'm not even sure there's even one Interceptor in all of the Eldar codex, and the Skyfire options are... lackluster.

That's not really a problem with Tau though, although I believe no army should have so much access to all the special rules when others have limited or no access to it.

Tau are all right at handling Dark Eldar skimmers. For the rest they need melta, of which they can get some, but hardly more than anyone else.

Also I would like to see those statistics putting Tau as a top tier army. Sounds weird.

Ratflinger wrote:
Tau are all right at handling Dark Eldar skimmers. For the rest they need melta, of which they can get some, but hardly more than anyone else.

Also I would like to see those statistics putting Tau as a top tier army. Sounds weird.

Tau can take tons of melta and plasma

Define tons. One twin linked melta on every riptide. If you run two tides you can get one pack of Crisis suits. Some more if you take a far sight detachment. Then you need to support them with markerlights. Sure, you can buy some s8-10 shooting. But that cuts into your s5 and s7 shooting a whole lot. By grabbing all that melta you typically are left with too little shooting and too few bodies.

Realistically Tau have some suicide melta suits and their riptides. Mass S7 for dealing with lighter vehicles.

 L0rdF1end wrote:
I would nerf SMS to 24 inches.
Reduce slots on the commander to something like 3 total toys.
Give most things in the dex a small points increase.

While you're fixing Tau take the nerf bat to Eldar also.

I dont think SMS has ever been an issue. nor commander.

Specific things need point upgrades for sure. but i dont think D pods need to as its already bloody expensive for what is basically a camo net

For eldar.... honestly reduce SS to 12" and suddenly eldar wont be so bad.

Wraith nights mabye drop there Str to 8 not 10.

I don't understand all the riptide hate.

First of all nerfing a MC to T5 or making it a walker is totally stupid. By that logic why wouldn't a dread knight be T5? Why is a Dread Knight a MC and not a walker. Same goes for Wraithknights? Its a mini Revenant which is a walker so why not nerf Wraithknights too?

Secondly, have you ever gone against a riptide with no marker support, they almost suck. Either 12 overheating shots that only hit 1/2 of the time and have 1/3 chance of causing a wound just to get the 12 shot rending profile. or the IA which sucks against anything but infantry not in cover without marker support and still has a 1/6 chance of overheating.

Lets not forget that our friends the Wraithknight and Dreadknight have pretty damn good shooting. BS4 Native, access to psychic buffs. The wraithknight has 2 S10 ID capable shots! or that ridiculous cannon which is far superior to the IA and the Dreadknight is pretty damn good considering they are both very capable in CC and faster units than the riptide.

Smart players will take out the markers first.

When it comes to supporting fire a smart player will use more than 1 unit...problem solved. Charge with the sacrificial unit to soak up Supporting fire then charge with the heavy hitters and with riptides not being fearless (unlike the apparently totally balanced Wraithknights and Dreadknights who are fearless or ATSKNF) and only having I2 they can be but down super easy front just a few wounds.

And the 2+3++ people are going on about, are people forgetting that there is a 1/3 chance the riptide will fail and cause an instant wound to its self? Thats pretty high risk for something that is supposed to mitigate damage.

The only thing i might agree on is 1 marker counter = 1 buff to BS/-1 cover.

Rant over

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

Dark Eldar lack these things. All of their guns are short range and low strength. Their only good AT gun (still short range) can only be used by scourges. The army very deliberately had all of its AT grenades removed.

To be fair, this is more a problem with DE in general.

Their weapons are pretty awful at the moment - since they have nothing to get round Jink and nothing with multiple shots (and even their meltas are worse than marine ones for no reason whatsoever). All they can do is spam their overpriced lances and really hope to roll that 6 on the damage table.

And, unfortunately, their new codex did virtually nothing to address this. No addition of multiple shot weapons, no buffs to the pathetic lance weapons (AP1 or 2 shots apiece would have helped a lot), not a single weapon with Skyfire or Ignores Cover.


In terms of vehicles, there's a real problem in terms of the gulf between skimmers and tracked vehicles. With the former basically being better at absolutely everything. They can carry more (and often better) guns, they tend to have equal or greater capacity, and they even have more armour. The (slightly depressing) exception being Dark Eldar.

Ratflinger wrote:
Define tons. One twin linked melta on every riptide. If you run two tides you can get one pack of Crisis suits. Some more if you take a far sight detachment. Then you need to support them with markerlights. Sure, you can buy some s8-10 shooting. But that cuts into your s5 and s7 shooting a whole lot. By grabbing all that melta you typically are left with too little shooting and too few bodies.

Realistically Tau have some suicide melta suits and their riptides. Mass S7 for dealing with lighter vehicles.

Crisis suits are pretty heavy with melta/plasma options. Add in the fact that Farsight makes em not scatter and some of the ridiculous crisis suits you can get from FW (2d3 melta shots), and most rear armor vehicles are toast. LRs is probably the only thing Tau have a tough time cracking, and even those won't stand up to repeated abuse.

 Messy0 wrote:
I don't understand all the riptide hate.

First of all nerfing a MC to T5 or making it a walker is totally stupid. By that logic why wouldn't a dread knight be T5? Why is a Dread Knight a MC and not a walker. Same goes for Wraithknights? Its a mini Revenant which is a walker so why not nerf Wraithknights too?

Secondly, have you ever gone against a riptide with no marker support, they almost suck. Either 12 overheating shots that only hit 1/2 of the time and have 1/3 chance of causing a wound just to get the 12 shot rending profile. or the IA which sucks against anything but infantry not in cover without marker support and still has a 1/6 chance of overheating.

Lets not forget that our friends the Wraithknight and Dreadknight have pretty damn good shooting. BS4 Native, access to psychic buffs. The wraithknight has 2 S10 ID capable shots! or that ridiculous cannon which is far superior to the IA and the Dreadknight is pretty damn good considering they are both very capable in CC and faster units than the riptide.

Smart players will take out the markers first.

When it comes to supporting fire a smart player will use more than 1 unit...problem solved. Charge with the sacrificial unit to soak up Supporting fire then charge with the heavy hitters and with riptides not being fearless (unlike the apparently totally balanced Wraithknights and Dreadknights who are fearless or ATSKNF) and only having I2 they can be but down super easy front just a few wounds.

And the 2+3++ people are going on about, are people forgetting that there is a 1/3 chance the riptide will fail and cause an instant wound to its self? Thats pretty high risk for something that is supposed to mitigate damage.

The only thing i might agree on is 1 marker counter = 1 buff to BS/-1 cover.

Rant over

Yeah i dont think anyone anywhere though the wraithknight and dread knight was ok too.

the complaints are just less prevalent because they dont come with AP2 long distance death that can EVER be ignore cover.

at that i do think all the various knights need to be lowered in T.

as well any tau player worth his salt will be rocking redundancies so that one player cannot punk all his markerlights

and at that they are 36" range so it wont be easy getting to them all the time.

 jreilly89 wrote:


Crisis suits are pretty heavy with melta/plasma options. Add in the fact that Farsight makes em not scatter and some of the ridiculous crisis suits you can get from FW (2d3 melta shots), and most rear armor vehicles are toast. LRs is probably the only thing Tau have a tough time cracking, and even those won't stand up to repeated abuse.

And how many points of melta is that? To me it sounds like a Tau army without much meat that might explode a few vehicles before it is swept off the board. Realistically Tau will be able to take some melta, but not a whole lot and will struggle against both AV 13 and 14.

Now, granted, I do not really play Tau. But to me it seems whenever they are discussed they are running lists with several super kitted riptides, that have both stimulants and interceptor/skyfire in some magical fashion. They have tons of crisis suits everywhere equipped with expensive wargear, lots of fire warriors w. devilfishes. Buff commanders with swarms of drones, Multiple units of broadsides.

To me Tau realistically brings lots of s5 and s7 shooting, are pretty immobile and fragile and struggle against AV 13+.

 Desubot wrote:

 Messy0 wrote:
I don't understand all the riptide hate.

First of all nerfing a MC to T5 or making it a walker is totally stupid. By that logic why wouldn't a dread knight be T5? Why is a Dread Knight a MC and not a walker. Same goes for Wraithknights? Its a mini Revenant which is a walker so why not nerf Wraithknights too?

Secondly, have you ever gone against a riptide with no marker support, they almost suck. Either 12 overheating shots that only hit 1/2 of the time and have 1/3 chance of causing a wound just to get the 12 shot rending profile. or the IA which sucks against anything but infantry not in cover without marker support and still has a 1/6 chance of overheating.

Lets not forget that our friends the Wraithknight and Dreadknight have pretty damn good shooting. BS4 Native, access to psychic buffs. The wraithknight has 2 S10 ID capable shots! or that ridiculous cannon which is far superior to the IA and the Dreadknight is pretty damn good considering they are both very capable in CC and faster units than the riptide.

Smart players will take out the markers first.

When it comes to supporting fire a smart player will use more than 1 unit...problem solved. Charge with the sacrificial unit to soak up Supporting fire then charge with the heavy hitters and with riptides not being fearless (unlike the apparently totally balanced Wraithknights and Dreadknights who are fearless or ATSKNF) and only having I2 they can be but down super easy front just a few wounds.

And the 2+3++ people are going on about, are people forgetting that there is a 1/3 chance the riptide will fail and cause an instant wound to its self? Thats pretty high risk for something that is supposed to mitigate damage.

The only thing i might agree on is 1 marker counter = 1 buff to BS/-1 cover.

Rant over

Yeah i dont think anyone anywhere though the wraithknight and dread knight was ok too.

the complaints are just less prevalent because they dont come with AP2 long distance death that can EVER be ignore cover.

at that i do think all the various knights need to be lowered in T.

as well any tau player worth his salt will be rocking redundancies so that one player cannot punk all his markerlights

and at that they are 36" range so it wont be easy getting to them all the time.

So the Dreadknights 12" torrent Flamer isnt ignore cover? Or the fact its very very easy to make a wraith knight twinlinked? which although isn't ignore cover increases its damage output significantly (not to mention being able to reroll hits in CC with eldar powers).

we play in an age where super heavies are prevalent, knights are common place. Why wouldn't other armies have such "Knight like" units to counter this?

the riptide has superior shooting because its sucks in CC compares to other equivalent units (which is always ignore cover if we are looking at the advantages of units) and the other knights are native S10 i believe so no need to ever smash compares to the riptides S6.

Prescience is a primaris, both available to the other big shot MC's the riptide needs markers instead, TL BS4 is just as good if not better than BS5, the other knight like units can get invis/forwarning, not available to Riptides. Im struggling to think of a situation where a riptide tops a Dreadknight or Wraithknight in stand alone shooting or CC yet they seem to be recieving far more hate.

AP2 being the key factor of what i was saying

Sucks in combat my foot. ap2 attacks is still powerful. chances may be he will fold but more than likely no one is going to get to charge it because a tau player will kill that threat off the board.

Dreads can toast troops but will have issues with elites or even marines
Wraiths can toast elites but its a few shots at best or a bunch of small blasts which you can always mitigate with cover and placement.

a Riptide will equally remove a unit of troops in cover or deep striking terminator unit with interceptor.

The stupid thing about Tau is that they can take almost any useful USR to ignore whatever USR other armies can get.

Tau can make an entire army where 99% of the models has interceptor and I can't even have 1 interceptor model in my entire codex, that's just a load of bullsh*t.
It's not like it's the most important USR, but it's not only interceptor and you should get the point.

Interceptor has issues though. especially when you bait it. or just ignore them by just starting on the field (save flyers which will probably have the best chance to bait as they cant ignore cover them)

Its just bad when you can put interceptor on a pieplate that is ap2 (for anything in that perfect Deepstrike circle.

Tau shouldn't be nerfed. They're never able to beat me in a match. And that was when I fielded a force 500 points weaker than my opponent.

Da Stormlord wrote:
Tau shouldn't be nerfed. They're never able to beat me in a match. And that was when I fielded a force 500 points weaker than my opponent.

What was you fielding so we can get some sort of context besides just trust me.

Ratflinger wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:


Crisis suits are pretty heavy with melta/plasma options. Add in the fact that Farsight makes em not scatter and some of the ridiculous crisis suits you can get from FW (2d3 melta shots), and most rear armor vehicles are toast. LRs is probably the only thing Tau have a tough time cracking, and even those won't stand up to repeated abuse.

And how many points of melta is that? To me it sounds like a Tau army without much meat that might explode a few vehicles before it is swept off the board. Realistically Tau will be able to take some melta, but not a whole lot and will struggle against both AV 13 and 14.

Now, granted, I do not really play Tau. But to me it seems whenever they are discussed they are running lists with several super kitted riptides, that have both stimulants and interceptor/skyfire in some magical fashion. They have tons of crisis suits everywhere equipped with expensive wargear, lots of fire warriors w. devilfishes. Buff commanders with swarms of drones, Multiple units of broadsides.

To me Tau realistically brings lots of s5 and s7 shooting, are pretty immobile and fragile and struggle against AV 13+.

I play a Tau guy quite frequently. To be fair, I run two LRs usually and our meta usually has a decent amount of armor. That being said, AV 13 is pretty worthless, as rear armor is 10 or so. This is the core problem. When you can deepstrike your melta without scatter, even S5 can glance rear armor on most things. He doesn't normally run Devilfishes or tons of Riptides, so the crisis suits are usually half the army when he's going for AT, I will admit that. But you can take each crisis suit as an individual unit, so stacking wounds on them becomes much harder (yeah Force Org, but Unbound, so who cares?).

I don't think Tau are super OP, but they have enough that their synergy is much easier to do than most other armies. Even Eldar need some form of teamwork. Tau are almost built entirely on the purpose of everything working together. That would seem great, but when you break rule such as ignoring cover and overwatching at almost full BS, that breaks the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Desubot wrote:

Da Stormlord wrote:
Tau shouldn't be nerfed. They're never able to beat me in a match. And that was when I fielded a force 500 points weaker than my opponent.

What was you fielding so we can get some sort of context besides just trust me.

"I beat a 12 year old playing Eldar, they're not nerfed." Guess what? There's a reason scientific journals require experimental and not anecdotal evidence.

 Ailaros wrote:


What tau need to do to be fixed is to strip everything away, so that everything doesn't get to take everything. Restore some meaningful choices to the codex. You can spend points to give your riptide one of his god-mod abilities, rather than being able to choose any of them on the fly. You can take skyfire, but not with interceptor. You can add blacksun filters or MSM, but you have to give up a weapon slot to take them. There are two kinds of markerlights, ones that reduce cover saves, ones that increase BS, and you need to decide in advance which you're bringing. Those kinds of things.

I think this is the more important comment in the thread and everyone has kind of glossed over it. The issue with every problem Tau unit is that they do everything for cheap. There are too many ways to make power units that do everything or ignore every rule. Rethinking the way you build the units so that you have hard choices is exactly what the book needs.

The only other choice is to nerf abilities away or sky rocket points which basically just makes things worthless or OP.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Not really, tanks are stupidly difficult to kill in 7th edition.

With my own tanks I barely even notice things like weapon destroyed and shaken. They're so tough that its a minor price to pay

vehicles are stupid easy to kill...what game are you playing?

Skimmers with 3+ jink saves in the open and flyers are an exception, but vehicles practically auto-die in CC and require about half the average number of shots to kill that you would have needed in 5e.

Not every army has access to anti tank grenades or melta guns. Several armies are built with very short range AT guns and low strength weapons which struggle to deal with vehicles.

You also have these things called super heavies.

The last half dozen or so games have pretty much hammered into me that anything without an anti tank gun os borderline useless because killing tanks is so hard to accomplish. Too often do my opponents just load up on tanks, deliberately knock out all of my AT guns and then auto win because the rest of my army can't possibly hurt them and I just sunk a lot of points into units I can't use.



Close combat? Are you sure you're playing the right edition?



Tank is king. Troops are dead.

Orks laugh at tanks In fact, we quite literally rip them apart and take them for scrap to make our own (Albeit weaker) tanks!

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
IMO the Tau codex is class because unlike a lot of codexes it allows you to take an army that's very reflective of what an actual tau empire army would look like (ie lots of battlesuits) unlike the likes of Eldar where you have nothing but wave serpants. However, as a tau player, I think some things need to change.

1. Make Shadowsun and Farsight Lords of War to prevent them being used in the same game. Or create a rule preventing such a team up ever happening. If he has the Dawnblade, Farsight is always a traitor and would never fight alongside shadowsun or Aun Va.

2. Make it so that only commanders can take buff upgrades and so that they can only have one active at a time. Reduce the amount of upgrade slots they have.

3. Get rid of the drone controller to prevent abusive bs5 markerlight drone swarms. This means the army must rely on lower bs units for its markerlights.

4. Riptides price should remain the same. But, they and also all other battlesuits including broadsides should be prevented from taking intercept and skyfire upgrades. This AA role should be purely given out to the skyrays and tau aircraft. Its simply broken to give main frontline units cheap access to AA and anti flanking weaponry, especially because it directly counters many of the deployment strategies used to counter shooting armies.

The main point though is I think a lot of the problems with tau stem from the buffs and the equipment section rather than the units or weapon profiles themselves.

Im sorry did i miss a chapter. how again is Tau supposed to handle Chaos Daemons and Eldar Wave spam if you do all this? How are necron Bakeries and other power armies going to be stopped?


sounds like sour grapes to me.