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It has 5 guns, but can it ever use them all since MCs can only shoot 2?

It has the Instinctive Fire rule, which is the only way in which it can fire those guns.

What is instinctive fire? And can it shoot all 5 times? I came up against this in a game yesterday and didn't have time to question it, but i was taking 5 blasts from 3 Tyrannocites each turn. Am curious.

Instinctive Fire is a special rule Tyrannocyres and Sporocysts have. Check either datasheet for details.

 Homeskillet wrote:
What is instinctive fire? And can it shoot all 5 times? I came up against this in a game yesterday and didn't have time to question it, but i was taking 5 blasts from 3 Tyrannocites each turn. Am curious.

GW has posted the rules for free on the black library website:
http://www.blacklibrary.com/Downloads/Product/PDF/rules/Sporocyst-EN.pdf

 FlingitNow wrote:
Instinctive Fire is a special rule Tyrannocyres and Sporocysts have. Check either datasheet for details.

 TheAvengingKnee wrote:

 Homeskillet wrote:
What is instinctive fire? And can it shoot all 5 times? I came up against this in a game yesterday and didn't have time to question it, but i was taking 5 blasts from 3 Tyrannocites each turn. Am curious.

GW has posted the rules for free on the black library website:
http://www.blacklibrary.com/Downloads/Product/PDF/rules/Sporocyst-EN.pdf

just post the damn rule ;p

Instinctive Fire:
Each weapon on this model automatically fires at the nearest enemy unit with in range and line of sight. The shots are resolved at the end of the Shootingphase before Moralechecks are taken.

 Homeskillet wrote:
What is instinctive fire? And can it shoot all 5 times? I came up against this in a game yesterday and didn't have time to question it, but i was taking 5 blasts from 3 Tyrannocites each turn. Am curious.

The Designer's Note from the White Dwarf is what holds part of the answer: It states that you measure from the 'muzzle' of each 'gun' (they're bio-weapons /shrug) in order to determine what the nearest target is. Another important part is in the pdf linked above: 'Each weapon can fire at a different target unit'. So, it can fire up to 5 times, at different targets.

The NEXT problem is determining the 'firing arc' for each weapon: Monstrous Creatures do not have a 'facing' (i.e. they can shoot behind themselves--another fun Tyranid/Daemon trick, no?). This would mean that a Tyrannocite, cleverly placed, could have only 1 target as the closest. Should it then get to fire all five weapons at it? Short answer is, 'I don't see why not,' but the longer answer is, 'no': The Tyrannocite's guns are the equivalent of Hull Mounted weapons on a vehicle. They have a limited firing arc.

Good to see you again--glad you're still trying to make pure Grey Knights work! Embrace the struggle!

It is against board rules to post rules as a replacement for someone owning them. YMDC is a place to discuss rules if you are stuck on the wording on them. Not a replacement for owning the relevant rulebook, codex or supplement.

 FlingitNow wrote:
It is against board rules to post rules as a replacement for someone owning them. YMDC is a place to discuss rules if you are stuck on the wording on them. Not a replacement for owning the relevant rulebook, codex or supplement.

the rules are F R E E.

http://www.blacklibrary.com/Downloads/Product/PDF/rules/Tyrannocyte-EN.pdf

no one has to pay for them.

RedNoak wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Instinctive Fire is a special rule Tyrannocyres and Sporocysts have. Check either datasheet for details.

 TheAvengingKnee wrote:

 Homeskillet wrote:
What is instinctive fire? And can it shoot all 5 times? I came up against this in a game yesterday and didn't have time to question it, but i was taking 5 blasts from 3 Tyrannocites each turn. Am curious.

GW has posted the rules for free on the black library website:
http://www.blacklibrary.com/Downloads/Product/PDF/rules/Sporocyst-EN.pdf

just post the damn rule ;p

Instinctive Fire:
Each weapon on this model automatically fires at the nearest enemy unit with in range and line of sight. The shots are resolved at the end of the Shootingphase before Moralechecks are taken.

I couldn't actually load the page at work(PDFs are blocked) so I couldn't get to the rule so I did the next best thing.

Indeed, if the Rules are available, then here's the whole thing:

Instinctive Fire:
"Each weapon on this model automatically fires at the nearest enemy unit within range and line of sight. The shots are resolved at the end of the Shooting phase before Morale checks are taken. Each weapon can fire at a different target unit, but they cannot be fired in any other way or at any other time."

-These shots are "compulsory"
-They are after you have fired everything else

Emphasis of the last part:
-They cannot fire Overwatch

I regularly play against Tyrannocytes with 5 ridiculous blast templates...

Can the weapons on it all fire in the same direction, or not?

Technically yes, as long as the unit fired at is the closest for all 5 guns.

Gragga Da Krumpa wrote:
I regularly play against Tyrannocytes with 5 ridiculous blast templates...

Can the weapons on it all fire in the same direction, or not?

As Nos says, it is forced to attack the closest Unit, so either:

A) Don't get close / in range

B) Put a Unit that can take it (Tank, etc) closest, to force fire on it.

Gragga Da Krumpa wrote:
I regularly play against Tyrannocytes with 5 ridiculous blast templates...

Can the weapons on it all fire in the same direction, or not?

The long answer is no. I'll go dig up the logic later today, but like I posted earlier: The 'guns' on a Tyrannocyte are the equivalent of hull-mounted weapons on a vehicle. As such, they have a fixed firing arc. The Tyrannocyte is not a 'true' Monstrous Creature, it has some of the qualities, but not all.

DCannon4Life wrote:

Gragga Da Krumpa wrote:
I regularly play against Tyrannocytes with 5 ridiculous blast templates...

Can the weapons on it all fire in the same direction, or not?

The long answer is no. I'll go dig up the logic later today, but like I posted earlier: The 'guns' on a Tyrannocyte are the equivalent of hull-mounted weapons on a vehicle. As such, they have a fixed firing arc. The Tyrannocyte is not a 'true' Monstrous Creature, it has some of the qualities, but not all.

I think your right but for the wrong reasons.
It's simply all about the 'Instinctive Fire' special rule.
Each weapon shoots separately at the nearest enemy unit within range and line of sight and can shoot at a different target.
So you measure from each gun towards the closest unit within line of sight. You can use any part of the gun because theirs nothing mentioning a fixed firing arc, but you still need line of sight.

Its still a MC but it has his own rules like many other MC's. I think the instinctive fire rule beats the 360 arc MC shooting rule (codex>rulebook).

DCannon4Life wrote:

Gragga Da Krumpa wrote:
I regularly play against Tyrannocytes with 5 ridiculous blast templates...

Can the weapons on it all fire in the same direction, or not?

The long answer is no. I'll go dig up the logic later today, but like I posted earlier: The 'guns' on a Tyrannocyte are the equivalent of hull-mounted weapons on a vehicle. As such, they have a fixed firing arc. The Tyrannocyte is not a 'true' Monstrous Creature, it has some of the qualities, but not all.

Well the actual rules for instinctive fire and that little blurb in the margins of the White Dwarf are not the same. With that being said, i go by the rules actually printed on the datasheet for the unit, which are reprinted in the Shield of Baal: Leviathan book.

It is a MC, MCs have no facing requirements for guns, so this will most likely lead to situations where it is indeed firing all five guns at the same target. There is no where in the actual rules for the Tyrannocyte/sporocyst that says you treat them like a vehicle with facings and the guns only fire on those facings.

DCannon4Life wrote:

Gragga Da Krumpa wrote:
I regularly play against Tyrannocytes with 5 ridiculous blast templates...

Can the weapons on it all fire in the same direction, or not?

The long answer is no. I'll go dig up the logic later today, but like I posted earlier: The 'guns' on a Tyrannocyte are the equivalent of hull-mounted weapons on a vehicle. As such, they have a fixed firing arc. The Tyrannocyte is not a 'true' Monstrous Creature, it has some of the qualities, but not all.

Unfortunately, while there is a designer's note, that is not rules as written. The actual rule does not specify measuring distances from the gun barrels, so you have to follow the normal rules for shooting with an MC. "Each weapon on this model automatically fires at the nearest enemy unit within range and line of sight". Line of sight and range are measured from the base of Monstrous creatures, not the weapons. As written, the last line about being able to fire at separate targets would only come in to play if two or more units were equidistant from the Tyrannocyte. If these were hull mounted weapons, they would have a firing arc and only be able to fire in that arc. They are not specified as so, and therefore will again follow the normal rules for MCs and therefore have a 360 degree firing arc.

Indeed, there are two answers here:

RaW: Yes, all 5 weapons can fire at the closest Unit. MC have no arc or issues with LoS through themselves.

Fluff/Hiwpi: Th model is made to look like it would fire in all directions, so firing through itself would be strange indeed.
But that's not the rules unfortunately, so most players would go by RaW.

DCannon4Life wrote:

Gragga Da Krumpa wrote:
I regularly play against Tyrannocytes with 5 ridiculous blast templates...

Can the weapons on it all fire in the same direction, or not?

The long answer is no. I'll go dig up the logic later today, but like I posted earlier: The 'guns' on a Tyrannocyte are the equivalent of hull-mounted weapons on a vehicle. As such, they have a fixed firing arc. The Tyrannocyte is not a 'true' Monstrous Creature, it has some of the qualities, but not all.

It might be your logic. But that isn't how the rules work.

you can in some instances use this against the tyrranocyte.

the player doesnt have the option to fire or not, it says the weapons are auto fired at the end of the shooting phase.

if you move something near the tyrranocyte that the guns cannot hurt, ie vehicles usually, the tyrranocyte is still forced to fire and most likely will hit itself as well.

in the case of the barbed stranglers, they are only S4, so even a Rhino could pull this off.

Where do you get that the guns are equal to a hull mounted weapon? It's an MC.

Just because I build my Hive Tyrant with his guns pointing in different directions or pointed in the air, or pointed at the ground, he is still about to shoot them in a 360 arc.

 Iechine wrote:
Where do you get that the guns are equal to a hull mounted weapon? It's an MC.

Just because I build my Hive Tyrant with his guns pointing in different directions or pointed in the air, or pointed at the ground, he is still about to shoot them in a 360 arc.

It comes from the White Dwarf where it was introduced and the designers talked about how it should be played, measuring the arc for each gun. The problem is the rules writers can't translate intent into rules.

So RAW is all the guns can shoot in the same direction, while RAI is they should count as hull mounted.

Exactly. The rules are horribly written, and not everybody will have read White Dwarf.

I agree that you fire them in all 5 directions, treated as hull mounted. If they could fire in any direction (as per normal MC rules) then they would ALWAYS all fire at the same target, as there would only ever be one target "closest" to the guns, as it would be the one closest to the MC.

And since you resolve all of the same weapons in the shooting phase at the same time, you would only ever fire at one target. I would love this to be the rule, as it would make the Tyrannocyte that much better, but I really don't think that was the intent.

In fact, why would the rule specify that they weapons can fire at different targets if they would ALWAYS fire at the nearest unit.

So RAW is awesome, but RAI seems to be obvious if you have all of the details.

That still doesn't answer questions like the firing arc of each weapon, although as a house rule we will treat them as hull mounted.

 miniwargaming wrote:
Exactly. The rules are horribly written, and not everybody will have read White Dwarf.

I agree that you fire them in all 5 directions, treated as hull mounted. If they could fire in any direction (as per normal MC rules) then they would ALWAYS all fire at the same target, as there would only ever be one target "closest" to the guns, as it would be the one closest to the MC.

And since you resolve all of the same weapons in the shooting phase at the same time, you would only ever fire at one target. I would love this to be the rule, as it would make the Tyrannocyte that much better, but I really don't think that was the intent.

In fact, why would the rule specify that they weapons can fire at different targets if they would ALWAYS fire at the nearest unit.

So RAW is awesome, but RAI seems to be obvious if you have all of the details.

That still doesn't answer questions like the firing arc of each weapon, although as a house rule we will treat them as hull mounted.

There is the possibility of multiple units being equidistant (especially given the size of the base, and the ability of the model to move). This would allow you to fire at multiple targets. Agreed that it's not what was intended based on the white dwarf blurb, but the written rules simply don't have an exception to normal line of sight/range/firing arc rules for an MC.

That is true.

However, what we're really doing now is having a RAW vs RAI discussion. Games Workshop is not good at writing rules so airtight that RAW will always be correct, so I prefer to go RAI whenever it is clear what the intent was, or where RAW just doesn't quite work.

Having said that, if you are a RAW-only type person, that is fine too, in which case you can fire all 5 weapons at the same target. Just be prepared to have this argument with people over and over again...

The issue I have with playing by "the RaI" is that "the RaI" isn't clear. Yes they are clearly intended to fire in separate directions but how is entirely unclear and in no way even hinted at in the rules. Hence any RaI interpretation you come up with is your guess and based on nothing we have to go on. This is why I suggest playing by RaW in this incidence as there is no other way to come to a consistent interpretation. If you have a regular playing group then creating your own houserule to govern this is probably best as RaW is clearly not the actual rule here.

 miniwargaming wrote:
That is true.

However, what we're really doing now is having a RAW vs RAI discussion. Games Workshop is not good at writing rules so airtight that RAW will always be correct, so I prefer to go RAI whenever it is clear what the intent was, or where RAW just doesn't quite work.

Having said that, if you are a RAW-only type person, that is fine too, in which case you can fire all 5 weapons at the same target. Just be prepared to have this argument with people over and over again...

I'm all about house ruling this with people you play regularly, and ruling it to the effect of hull mounted weapons makes sense. The problem arises when you play a pickup game against a stranger or enter a tournament setting. This isn't a case of the wording being murky and it could be interpreted either way. They simply don't address a special mechanic for line of sight/range/arc of fire at all, so we're left with the default rules for a monstrous creature. This is one of those issues that will cause argument no matter which way you go because both ways have significant advantages and disadvantages.

All 5 weapons shooting at the same target provides concentrated fire on one target making it much more likely to significantly damage/destroy that target, but also makes the Pod that much easier to lock down with one vehicle/super tough unit being parked close by.

If all five weapons fired based on range and line of sight to the weapon itself, you would have the ability to hit multiple targets, potentially making multiple vehicles jink (with Venom and Deathspitters you can threaten multiple light vehicles, and even flyers with the number of deathspitter shots), or locking down multiple infantry squads with pinning checks from barbed stranglers. You also reduce the chance of one unit locking down the pod if you start getting in to hull mounted weapon firing arcs.

RAI is great for friendly games with casual opponents, but it simply doesn't work everywhere. Even if they had made a poorly worded attempt at modifying the LoS/range/arc requirements it would be better than where we are left as is.

,

Maybe we are going to have a new edition very soon.

I mean Gargoyles got Objective Secured with no explanations as to why and a lot of people got their knickers in a knot. Now we have a new rule. So who knows, maybe with a new rule set this will make sense in a few months from now and people wills top having their knickers in a knot just like with OS did.

Can someone link the instinctive fire rule off black libr? I can't find that free section no matter how hard I look.