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Hey, there is currently a thread talking about the balance of the new 7th edition codices. I was wondering if anybody could speak to the balance between the ork codex and space wolves codex specifically. I haven't played 40k for a while, but I heard that the new ork codex is toned down a bit from previous editions. btw, I know that the ork codex came out slightly before the release of 7th, but I'm calling it the 7th edition codex anyways. Thanks!

Here you go.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/626916.page

 Zewrath wrote:
Here you go.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/626916.page

Hey thanks! yeah I referred to that thread in my post. That thread has a lot of good information but I was specifically asking if the ork and sw codexes are balanced between the two of them, not between all the 7th ed codices.

Oh, I thought it said; "IS there currently a thread..."
Misread, sorry.

 Zewrath wrote:
Oh, I thought it said; "IS there currently a thread..."
Misread, sorry.

Not a problem at all. Maybe I should clarify: I'd really like to hear from people who have played 7th ed games between orks and SWs. I'd like to hear if you think they are balanced. Strengths/weaknesses would be appreciated too.

I haven't used the SW dex yet, I will be most likely this week, but I've checked out the dex for a few hours coming up with lists.

I love it, it seems awesome. The marines are still the core of the army and really strong, with counter attack and extra weapons being an option. I can take 2 specials and a drop pod now, where before I couldn't unless I did combi. I can even do 3 if I want to, which is really strong.

WG are still amazing. 5 WG with pods all carrying plasma is amazing.

TWC are great, glad I kept mine. Rending, cheaper, SS cheaper means we have an actual good CC unit that can reach CC, especially in a pod heavy force that forces you to pick who to kill.

Long fangs switched from ML to probably using plasma cannons or Las cannons, but are still good.

Scouts seem better and elite scouts are why I play the faction.

Loving the HQ choices. They seem to be amazing beat sticks, especially if given a TW. The relics are good without being busted.

I find myself actually looking at the various claws now. Sky claws get extra special weapons, swift claws I have always liked since bikes can fire and assault (though they seem weaker...maybe a priest?), and blood claws in large squads with a priest make land raiders viable.

It's a great dex, and I am really enjoying it so far. The actual layout is crap but the balance seems pretty good.

That said, it can't go up against eldar, tau, or necron at WAAC levels and win most of the time. But it is fine against the other dexes, and I am hard pressed to find a unit that sucks outright...maybe the whirlwind.

Thanks akiasura, how do the orks stack up to the SW codex?

I do not feel qualified in speaking about the Orks as they are one of the few armies I do not own. I have a few, for GorkaMorka, but I haven't played proper Orks in a very long time.

That being said;
The troop section is strong. Slugga and shootas are very balanced.

Burna Boyz are excellent, as are tank busta boyz.

Truks are not bad. I have heard mixed reviews about this and the mob rule, but most people here field a green tide so my experience is limited. These are the biggest issues I have heard.

Flash gitz (my favorite unit) got better IMO. I am a huge fan of these guys.

Meganobz seem better as well, and that is another unit I really enjoy.

I have played orks versus space wolves twice, and I can say both are pretty good. nothing stood out to me as overtly broken (except maybe too many rune priests casting endurance, but that is more of a general thing.) It was fun, and I have to say i'm enjoying orks quite a but.

Scouts are better? How exactly? They lost behind enemy lines, which was the only reason anyone ever used them before. There was crying far and wide from every SW I know at all the local shops and every SW facebook group. I haven't seen anyone even use scouts with the new book since they're basically worthless and even terminators would be a better use of the elite slot.

I've played the new orks 3 times. Once I tabled them, other 2 games I won easily on VP. The ork dex has always been one of the worst as far as power level and I haven't seen anything change. SW dex got slightly more internal balance but GH are still way better than claws, drop pod melta and TWC are still the only viable ways to play the army if you want to win, dreads, TDA and scouts are awful so just leave the elite slot empty, Flyer is good but I have yet to have the hell frost effect actually do anything. Any multi wound model you're trying to kill with the frost cannon is going to be S6 with some kind of invuln so you have to hope for a failed save then hope they roll a 6 on strength test. The only changes I liked about SW are cheaper TWC and drop pods as fast attack. Tigurius and grav cents in a drop pod is how I play the army now. SW with no allies are bottom to mid tier but with a death star in a drop pod they get closer to being able to keep up with tau and eldar.

 Toofast wrote:
Scouts are better? How exactly? They lost behind enemy lines, which was the only reason anyone ever used them before. There was crying far and wide from every SW I know at all the local shops and every SW facebook group. I haven't seen anyone even use scouts with the new book since they're basically worthless and even terminators would be a better use of the elite slot.

I've played the new orks 3 times. Once I tabled them, other 2 games I won easily on VP. The ork dex has always been one of the worst as far as power level and I haven't seen anything change. SW dex got slightly more internal balance but GH are still way better than claws, drop pod melta and TWC are still the only viable ways to play the army if you want to win, dreads, TDA and scouts are awful so just leave the elite slot empty, Flyer is good but I have yet to have the hell frost effect actually do anything. Any multi wound model you're trying to kill with the frost cannon is going to be S6 with some kind of invuln so you have to hope for a failed save then hope they roll a 6 on strength test. The only changes I liked about SW are cheaper TWC and drop pods as fast attack. Tigurius and grav cents in a drop pod is how I play the army now. SW with no allies are bottom to mid tier but with a death star in a drop pod they get closer to being able to keep up with tau and eldar.

I have been playing with the Wolf Scouts, better No, worse...I am not sure.
How I have been playing them is just with Bolt Guns, a Plasma-Gun and sometimes a WGPL with a Combi-Plasma. Now the loss of "Behind Enemy Lines" they are not what they used to be, but with a good chance of coming on what side you want they can inflict lot of quick damage to the flank of a Tank or to take down some rear area Objective Holder.

 Toofast wrote:
Scouts are better? How exactly? They lost behind enemy lines, which was the only reason anyone ever used them before. There was crying far and wide from every SW I know at all the local shops and every SW facebook group. I haven't seen anyone even use scouts with the new book since they're basically worthless and even terminators would be a better use of the elite slot.

I've played the new orks 3 times. Once I tabled them, other 2 games I won easily on VP. The ork dex has always been one of the worst as far as power level and I haven't seen anything change. SW dex got slightly more internal balance but GH are still way better than claws, drop pod melta and TWC are still the only viable ways to play the army if you want to win, dreads, TDA and scouts are awful so just leave the elite slot empty, Flyer is good but I have yet to have the hell frost effect actually do anything. Any multi wound model you're trying to kill with the frost cannon is going to be S6 with some kind of invuln so you have to hope for a failed save then hope they roll a 6 on strength test. The only changes I liked about SW are cheaper TWC and drop pods as fast attack. Tigurius and grav cents in a drop pod is how I play the army now. SW with no allies are bottom to mid tier but with a death star in a drop pod they get closer to being able to keep up with tau and eldar.

My pdf has them being able to take a heavy weapon now, and I'm a big fan of the sniper and camo cloaks.

I don't know how you can claim they are bottom to mid tier in one sentence and then claim they can duke it out with the top dexes a little later. Twc stars are amazing with iron priest support or any character really. Our flyer is nice, relics are great, troops are solid with cheap specials relatively speaking. Heck the new frost weapon one shots a thunder fire cannon!

I'm surprised people cared about scouts...nobody was running them when I was in the tactica. Everyone felt they basically showed up, fired a shot, then died. I used them mainly for fluff reasons and they seem loads better now. Str 10 MC are the one thing that scares me, snipers can help with that, as can Las cannon dreads.

Claws aren't terrible. You need a priest, but that many bodies and attacks can deal some serious damage, and we can deliver them in many ways. With allies we are a top tier codex due to the pods

Toofast is also a player dedicated to playing to win. I do not think that style matches the vibe of this thread imo.

I personally haven't tried out my SW on the field yet, but from what I see, its just a really fine codex.

A few things that stick out to me at least is the new the new Wolf Lords, 5 more points and a 4++ is really good in my book. The TWC are obvious and I am seriously considering getting some now.

My last game was 1000pts SW vs Orks. We had a great time and it was a close ending with win for SW (me) by 6-5 on a Maelstrom mission.

But that's the only game I've played vs Orks, so I can't really draw many conclusions. Also, this was a casual game, none of us ran optimized lists.

I had a TWC star (with IP+RP on bike), 1 melta drop pod, 1 rhino plasma hunter unit and one dread with Helfrost cannon. My opponent played with deffkopters, killakans, 1 boy truck, 1 nob truck and a couple of footslogging boy units + 2 bosses. My impression is that SW vs Orks games (at least with this kind of units) may often become very tactical. You want to try and make sure that you assault so positioning becomes quite important. Also, my opponent ran a lot of units opposed to my quite few. This was likely a quite good idea since there was no way for me to deal with all of them before he had charged me. I won in the end because he focused too hard on my TWC unit, allowing the Melta hunters to hunt tanks and objectives.

 ArmageddonBorn wrote:
I heard that the new ork codex is toned down a bit from previous editions.

At least not from the 6-th or late 5-th. Orks are good and kicking.

I've played against space wolves only once so it's hard to tell for sure.

Are orks really that balanced? Were people really having such a hard time killing orks that we needed to have them kill themselves now too?

I haven't had any major problems with my beloved Orks. Played quite a few games since the new codex, and it's been a lot of jigging to see what works better or worse now.

I've played Nids, SM, Eldar, Space Wolves, Chaos, Daemons, Dark Eldar, Tau; etc.

Orks are a glass cannon. If something goes horribly awry in your turns each turn, you're toast. But when you get everything lined up in a row; you can pull off some amazing things.

I haven't been able to field anything extravagant myself. Mostly due to budgets. I haven't tried the Morka/Gorkanaught, bikers, or looted wagons. But everything else I've had good success with.

Even Kommandos I find are fun to play. Great way if you have good cover to line up a first blood. I had a group of Kommandos with 2 flamers light up a squad of cultists and wipe the whole squad from the board.

We have quite a few local tourny's where I live. The last one I played I won 2 out of 3 games. First two being Space Wolves and Chaos, the third being a loss to Tau. I think I could have won that one too if it weren't for the scenario (beans & bullets, being a mechanized list and pulling 'fuel' for my precious resource blew chunkles).

Kans and Deffs aren't super durable. But I find they work great in the back field in case a drop pod or other types of troops fall in.

Deffkoptas, amazing.

Boarding Planks, though they lost their funny flavor; the added 2+ to our charge range makes it insane. Saved my bacon a couple times.

Lukky Stikk on groups of boys with warboss, pain boy, and nob all pouring out of a battlewagon makes for some sad pandas. The Nob can take any terrible challenges that come your way, and the painboy gives everyone that nice feel no pain roll that can sometime make a sturdy group of boys almost unstoppable.

Eldar is where I find a lot of problems. They move quick and they hit hard and accurate. It's brutal because you spend a lot of time chasing them around the board.

Nids I had some issue too. Melee is a good way to run our lists, but against Nids we're on the uphill I find. They have a bad habit of outnumbering even orks. I only played once against Nids though in the last few months, so I'd probably make my list a bit differently to match them.

I find the biggest thing is to adapt. If you lynchpin your list on one unit, and it vanishes in a ball of blue plasma (as Orks are wont to do), then your army will fall apart.

I would kill to try a biker list though. I find spending the 45$ for three models is a little more than brutal however. The Meganobz I won at my last tourney for some conversion work I did, so I didn't care about the $80 price tag. Bikers is where I want to start diving into next.

Again, no experience with Bikers but I'd expect they'd make a good first hit unit. To charge into a group of troops and tie them down (if not outright kill them) until the main body of trukks and battlewagons arrive.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Are orks really that balanced? Were people really having such a hard time killing orks that we needed to have them kill themselves now too?

Uhhh... I hate to be the one to tell ya, but us orks have been killin' ourselves for just about 5 editions now I'm pretty sure. It's kind of our thing.

OrkaMorka wrote:

Orks are a glass cannon.

I'd tell we're more of a glass rain. So many drops.

Akiasura wrote:

 Toofast wrote:
Scouts are better? How exactly? They lost behind enemy lines, which was the only reason anyone ever used them before. There was crying far and wide from every SW I know at all the local shops and every SW facebook group. I haven't seen anyone even use scouts with the new book since they're basically worthless and even terminators would be a better use of the elite slot.

I've played the new orks 3 times. Once I tabled them, other 2 games I won easily on VP. The ork dex has always been one of the worst as far as power level and I haven't seen anything change. SW dex got slightly more internal balance but GH are still way better than claws, drop pod melta and TWC are still the only viable ways to play the army if you want to win, dreads, TDA and scouts are awful so just leave the elite slot empty, Flyer is good but I have yet to have the hell frost effect actually do anything. Any multi wound model you're trying to kill with the frost cannon is going to be S6 with some kind of invuln so you have to hope for a failed save then hope they roll a 6 on strength test. The only changes I liked about SW are cheaper TWC and drop pods as fast attack. Tigurius and grav cents in a drop pod is how I play the army now. SW with no allies are bottom to mid tier but with a death star in a drop pod they get closer to being able to keep up with tau and eldar.

My pdf has them being able to take a heavy weapon now, and I'm a big fan of the sniper and camo cloaks.

I don't know how you can claim they are bottom to mid tier in one sentence and then claim they can duke it out with the top dexes a little later. Twc stars are amazing with iron priest support or any character really. Our flyer is nice, relics are great, troops are solid with cheap specials relatively speaking. Heck the new frost weapon one shots a thunder fire cannon!

I'm surprised people cared about scouts...nobody was running them when I was in the tactica. Everyone felt they basically showed up, fired a shot, then died. I used them mainly for fluff reasons and they seem loads better now. Str 10 MC are the one thing that scares me, snipers can help with that, as can Las cannon dreads.

Claws aren't terrible. You need a priest, but that many bodies and attacks can deal some serious damage, and we can deliver them in many ways. With allies we are a top tier codex due to the pods

I said most builds are bottom to mid tier. If you take a TWC death star or drop pod melta spam and ally tigurius/librarian in a pod then it can hang with top tier armies. Although that depends on luck. I took nothing but melta pods, tigurius, grav cents and a stormfang tonight against tau buffmander, riptides and missile broadsides. I conceded turn 4 when the only thing left on the table was my drop pods and tigurius. I killed a good portion of his army but he was 1 turn from tabling me and I couldn't get near the relic. If I hadn't rolled so many 1s and 2s I might have won. Interceptor really hurts drop pods and everything in his army was AP1 or ap2.