Why in the HECK do Wraith Knights/Lords and Riptides have Toughness rather then Armour

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**ArbitorIan**

erinil0905 wrote:
Surely with this reasoning Dreadnoughts should be MC since they are just bigger versions of TDA?

Personally i don't think Riptides should be MC for the following reason: take one Fire warrior model, then compare it to a Riptide then you will find that the suit have MUCH more Mecha parts then Squishy parts.

Here is my reasoning why i think Riptides should me Walkers:
Mecha Parts>Squishy Parts= Walker
Squishy Parts>Mecha Parts= MC

Yeah, I think there are a few confusing things if you use that reasoning (though I agree with the Dreadnought point - Dreadnoughts and Riptides are both suits of armour rather than piloted vehicles)

How about this reasoning

*Giant 'suits of armour' worn by someone with a mind link or controlled by a spirit/brain = MC
*Mechanical thing driven by some guy with a steering wheel and a 'go' pedal = Vehicle

So MCs would include Riptides, Wraithlords, Wraithknights, Dreadnoughts, Dreadknights, Deff Dreds, Imperial Knights. Walkers would be Sentinels, War Walkers, Killa Kans, Morkanauts.

SGTPozy wrote:The riptide isn't a walker as the Tau have no walkers; that's one of the things that makes Tau unique.

Not sure that argument works - the Tau can't have any walkers because the Tau don't have any walkers. It's not really a reason... :/

**Pilau Rice**

ArbitorIan wrote:

So MCs would include Riptides, Wraithlords, Wraithknights, Dreadnoughts, Dreadknights, Deff Dreds, Imperial Knights. Walkers would be Sentinels, War Walkers, Killa Kans, Morkanauts.
/

Daemon Engines I guess would be MCs as it's a Daemon controlling the whole machine without peddles and levers?

That would leave very few things considered to be walkers.

**Frozen Ocean**

They need to expand the very limited scope of the Walker type rather than shoehorning things into Monstrous Creature rules.

It's really stupid to have a vehicle be vulnerable to poison just because it has legs instead of wheels and arms instead of sponsons.

**CREEEEEEEEED**

The reason is so you can kill them with kroot and sniper rounds.

**Mojo1jojo**

I think there are some really good points here about MC vs Walker.
On more Mek vs Squishy. I think that anything that is needs a person to move it by mimicking the movement with a limb should have a toughness value. Anything that has a "pilot" ie. moves without somebody mimicking the moment to move the mek, should be a walker. I guess this translates into Wearing a Mek Suite vs. Driving a Mek,be it via direct brain connection or soul, etc.
I think this would make most things walkers, except Dreadknights.

**DCannon4Life**

I'd very much like to see the CSM Helbrute switched over to MC rules. I think they'd see more play (not being one-shot by a Lascannon, for example).

**Fenris Frost**

I dunno. I think Hull Points, lowered existence of Armourbane/AP2, and the 7+ to die on the table really has leveled the playing field somewhat. I've kicked the crap out of some MCs with Dreads to my own surprise a lot of the time...

**Unit1126PLL**

A vehicle is an MC with toughness equal to it's AV - 10, and no save, with no more than 4 wounds (unless it is a super-heavy). Oh, and they have to snap-fire all their other guns if they fire ordnance. Oh, and they have a damage table. Oh, and they don't defend themselves in close combat most of the time.

**Frozen Ocean**

Mojo1jojo wrote:
I think there are some really good points here about MC vs Walker.
On more Mek vs Squishy. I think that anything that is needs a person to move it by mimicking the movement with a limb should have a toughness value. Anything that has a "pilot" ie. moves without somebody mimicking the moment to move the mek, should be a walker. I guess this translates into Wearing a Mek Suite vs. Driving a Mek,be it via direct brain connection or soul, etc.
I think this would make most things walkers, except Dreadknights.

Why? Just because a gigantic vehicle is piloted by Kinect, it magically transforms into a flesh-and-blood creature?

**Mojo1jojo**

Frozen Ocean wrote:
Mojo1jojo wrote:
I think there are some really good points here about MC vs Walker.
On more Mek vs Squishy. I think that anything that is needs a person to move it by mimicking the movement with a limb should have a toughness value. Anything that has a "pilot" ie. moves without somebody mimicking the moment to move the mek, should be a walker. I guess this translates into Wearing a Mek Suite vs. Driving a Mek,be it via direct brain connection or soul, etc.
I think this would make most things walkers, except Dreadknights.

Why? Just because a gigantic vehicle is piloted by Kinect, it magically transforms into a flesh-and-blood creature?

I was just trying to compromise. The way I see it is your ability to take physical damage and still be able to function that makes you tough. If you are a pilot you take toughness out of the equation because it is only the ability of the vehicles system to keep critical systems going or protected which translates into amore values. If your limbs are moving or are created the mechanized parts of the vehicle then you are the critical system needed to be stopped to keep the mechanized suit from doing anything.
I can see how the above may not make complete sense. But as a previous poster said, maybe they all should be MC or Vehicle. Toughness 8, 6 wound Morkanant, yes pleease

**morgoth**

Heir of the Void wrote:
Mojo1jojo wrote:
This could go into two forums but the first question is to address what kinda of fluff gives giant meks and toughness value rather then an armor value. As an ork player stuck with the sub-par Mork/Gorkanaut, who can be blown up with one shot and only have a 5++ save. I feel that Wraith Knights/Lords and Riptides should be susceptible to the same type of catastrophic damage. They cost the same points, except that the non-ork giant meks have better saves and weapons that can be damaged.

Let me preface this with a reminder to check your spelling; it will help people take you more seriously.

Alright, so Consider how Imperial Knight Players feel, with out Knights only having AV 13 on the front, and an Ion Shield that's arguably worse than the Kustom Force Field. Knights Cost more, have less durability, and maybe an equivalent amount of firepower.

Also, Superheavy vehicles cannot be OHKO'd anymore, except by Destroya weapons. It would take a minimum of 2 lascannon shots and one-in-a-thousand odds to bring down a Gorkanaut that quickly.

That being said, Riptides are definitely overpowered. With a 2+/5++ save that can be upgraded to 3++, there is probably something wrong, given their low cost. Basically, It should probably cost MORE than the six terminators it is more durable and packs more firepower than, while it usually winds up costing about the same.

I won't worry as much about the Wraithknight. They don't have a 2+ armor save, and have to sacrifice something to gain an Invulnerable save, and have no way to get FNP. They aren't worthwhile in most lists (though that may be due more to all the other crazy stuff Eldar have...), and they can be taken down by massed infantry shooting.

Statistics rank Imperial Knights as the most winning army of v7 at 65%.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Heir of the Void wrote:

As for that, I'm still convinced that Knights cost slightly more than they should. That's part of what I'm trying to rectify with my Knights Wargear thread, but it dosn't address the underlying problem that you're paying ~400 points for a AV13 unit.

Good thing you're the only one.

Against any kind of TAC / balanced force, Knights are incredibly strong.

ForgeWorld Knights are crazy strong with the Cerastus Lancer and such things.

Your idea of giving them wargear is as conductive to balance as giving a ten point upgrade to the Wave Serpent so it gets AV12 Rear and 4HP.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

koooaei wrote:
And the ammount of weapons able to deal with a vehicle is far superior to the ammount of weapons able to deal with a MC. The argument: "But my riptide can be wounded by a lazgun!11" doesn't mean much when you need 72 lazgun shots before fnp to inflict a single wound on a 5-wound model. And around 5-6 melta or gravgun shots to more or less reliably invalidate a naught in one turn.

Actually, Gravguns outright nuke a Riptide or a WraithKnight.

What you're complaining about is that people bringing AV weapons have trouble killing MCs.

Tough luck bro, bring anti-MC weapons next time.

There may be an argument about the potential 3++ on the Riptide which has an opportunity cost, but the WraithKnight is just incredibly easy to kill for anti-MC units.

**Skullhammer**

The main reason as i see it is simply that a riptide/wrathknight etc is seperate from its armour i.e. the pilot can get out and run away where as a dread is a brain&stem hardwired into a machine, deamons are trapped in there mech shells etc.
this does have exceptions imp knights and wraithlords but they can be fluffed away, so the knight is just a damn big machine but can still be disabled and tge wlord knows its a machine but has advanced self repair etc.

**Bharring**

Problem is, anti-MC weapons are rarely AP1. So Tides and NDKs laugh them off. 3+ and 3W on a Wraithlord means it fears things that dont AP them, but NDK, Tide, and WK all have far too many wounds.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
(And Wraithlords are less machines than Nids. Nids have internal organs, whereas Wraithlords are lumps of Wraithbone with some psyker/soul energy.)

**DCannon4Life**

Bharring wrote:
Problem is, anti-MC weapons are rarely AP1. So Tides and NDKs laugh them off. 3+ and 3W on a Wraithlord means it fears things that dont AP them, but NDK, Tide, and WK all have far too many wounds.

Dunno about you, but ALL my anti-MC weapons are AP2 or AP1: Shuriken weapons, Deathspinners, Pulse Lasers (Hornets), Heavy Wraith Cannons, Fusion Guns, etc.

The rest of my lists shoot S6 or S7 (Because, you know, serpents...).

**Filch**

They should just replace all walking vehicles as walkers.

**Bharring**

I know the mon'keigh with their Autocnnons, hellfire rounds, missiles, and rokkits don't really matter, but what of our Dark Citier kin?

**The Riddle of Steel**

It seems they give vehicle rules to walkers they want to be slower, more cumbersome and relatively lower-tech. They give MC rules to walkers they want to be considered more agile and high-tech.

This is just my observation based on the way I see GW applying the rules.

It also seems to me that MCs are generally harder to kill than vehicles.

Since the Eldar Wraithknight is basically powered by magic, I can understand why it is a MC as there are no circuits or gears to be damaged and no crew. The big Tau suits seem like they should be vehicles as they are a pilot in a metal suit, same as dreadnaughts and other vehicles. I understand that small heavily-armored units like Termies, Centuriins and small Tau suits have toughness for the same reason bikes do: it helps the game flow better, the pilot is a bigger portion of the whole and it feels right.

Ultimately, the rules have to provide fun and functional gameplay first and make sense second. But I would like more consistency and balance. Rather than make the Orkanaughts MCs or Superheavies, they could make them balanced by reducing the cost. The points value should be the ultimate equalizer.

**morgoth**

The Riddle of Steel wrote:

It also seems to me that MCs are generally harder to kill than vehicles.

That's just wrong.

MCs are harder to kill than vehicles when you use Melta.

Grav is a lot more violent on MCs, vehicles are immune to Instant Death (the very rare occasional explodes does not make up for it), poison, fleshbane and many more things.

Riptides can suffer wounds from S3, as WraithKnights can take wounds from S5, etc.

The only thing that makes modern MCs a threat is the expectation of most players to deal with anything big using just melta.

**Mojo1jojo**

morgoth wrote:
The Riddle of Steel wrote:

It also seems to me that MCs are generally harder to kill than vehicles.

That's just wrong.

MCs are harder to kill than vehicles when you use Melta.

Grav is a lot more violent on MCs, vehicles are immune to Instant Death (the very rare occasional explodes does not make up for it), poison, fleshbane and many more things.

Riptides can suffer wounds from S3, as WraithKnights can take wounds from S5, etc.

The only thing that makes modern MCs a threat is the expectation of most players to deal with anything big using just melta.

Vehicles are completely vulnerable to insta-death , its called being blown up with one penetrating hit. Or one roll of a 6 for pen on a grav-weapon.

**Frozen Ocean**

Walker rules need overhauled. There should be room in the Walker type for such distinct things as Wraithknights, Sentinels and Dreadnoughts.

**Johnnytorrance**

Heir of the Void wrote:
Mojo1jojo wrote:
This could go into two forums but the first question is to address what kinda of fluff gives giant meks and toughness value rather then an armor value. As an ork player stuck with the sub-par Mork/Gorkanaut, who can be blown up with one shot and only have a 5++ save. I feel that Wraith Knights/Lords and Riptides should be susceptible to the same type of catastrophic damage. They cost the same points, except that the non-ork giant meks have better saves and weapons that can be damaged.

Let me preface this with a reminder to check your spelling; it will help people take you more seriously.

Alright, so Consider how Imperial Knight Players feel, with out Knights only having AV 13 on the front, and an Ion Shield that's arguably worse than the Kustom Force Field. Knights Cost more, have less durability, and maybe an equivalent amount of firepower.

Also, Superheavy vehicles cannot be OHKO'd anymore, except by Destroya weapons. It would take a minimum of 2 lascannon shots and one-in-a-thousand odds to bring down a Gorkanaut that quickly.

That being said, Riptides are definitely overpowered. With a 2+/5++ save that can be upgraded to 3++, there is probably something wrong, given their low cost. Basically, It should probably cost MORE than the six terminators it is more durable and packs more firepower than, while it usually winds up costing about the same.

I won't worry as much about the Wraithknight. They don't have a 2+ armor save, and have to sacrifice something to gain an Invulnerable save, and have no way to get FNP. They aren't worthwhile in most lists (though that may be due more to all the other crazy stuff Eldar have...), and they can be taken down by massed infantry shooting.

You insult him with your elitist Grammer nazi comment then post a useless comment that doesn't answer anything the OP asked.

**Frozen Ocean**

That was hardly insulting.

**Mojo1jojo**

I feel completely insulted......... Just kidding. You are a grammar-Nazi though.

**Frozen Ocean**

It's not being a "grammar-Nazi" to say "it will help people take you more seriously". It's not like Heir of the Void said "check your spelling, otherwise you are really stupid and I hate you".

**Grey Templar**

Here is why they are MCs and not Walkers.

1) The Walker rules suck hardcore. Frankly, most Walkers should be changed into Monstrous Creatures. It would make so many of them finally worth their points. GW wanted to sell these kits, so they made them MCs so they wouldn't suck.

2) All of the things you listed are not actually vehicles. they're really suits of armor the pilot is wearing(or his soul is possessing) and not vehicles that the guy is piloting.

If dreadnoughts were T6 with 2+ armor and 5 wounds you would actually see them get used.

Dreadnoughts, Defilers, Helbrutes, etc... should be made into T6ish MCs with 4-5 wounds.

The only walkers should be the current crop of super heavies, Warwalkers, and Sentinals.

Basically, if its a big suit of armor or really agile, it should be a Monstrous Creature. If its just a vehicle with legs, it should be a walker.

**Bharring**

Please no. I like my Dreads the way they are.

**Grey Templar**

Bharring wrote:
Please no. I like my Dreads the way they are.

You like them being ~150 pt paper weights?

**SagesStone**

It could possibly have something to do with the armour facing rule. Really rules for walkers should be a hybrid of vehicle and MC. Get rid of the armour facings and give them a standard AV or T and their own damage table to roll on. Move around HP/W to balance that out and done.

**Melissia**

That sounds good to me.

**Median Trace**

>$/£ = AV-> T

The GW conversion rule?