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So I've been out of the Fantasy loop for a while and while I'd been hearing about how the End Times were actually advancing the plot I didn't realize how much. I heard some things that made me wonder though so I got myself some digital copies and started reading. I expected something on the level of Storm of Chaos but... this has to be the most the storyline has ever advanced right? So many named characters dying, so much change to the landscape of the world. I'm actually pretty impressed. (Also as a supporter of Malekith since I discovered Warhammer... vindicated!)

It is epic in my opinion. I love seeing the elven people as one now.

It's about damn time imho. We're starting to get some interesting lore and army builds because of it (United Elves, United Chaos) now if only they would advance the plot of 40K everything would be awesome.

im having a blast with it so far, my dwarfs are getting steamrolled a little too much at the mo but that will change as soon as my ironbreakers arrive !!!

I'm mainly into Warhammer Fantasy for the lore, but I have to agree, the endtimes have been awesome. The entire Nagash book is stellar, I thought the Glottkin book was tons of fun and I can't wait to get my hands on the Khaine book

IMHO, lore and army book consolidation wise, the game really needed this. It also needed a magic phase that less resembled tic tac toe, and had some variability to it. There's a small handful of things that i think are potentially just a bit too powerful, but on the whole, i'm loving End Times and what it's doing for the game.

I'm not a huge fan of the Khaine magic changes (though I think there's some merit to some of them...just not the package as it stands), and many of the new super characters are rather obnoxious. However I'm still absolutely loving what GW has done with the ET.

What bothers me, though, is how many people are just plain unwilling to adapt. My club has been playing around with all the new super heroes for months now and they die more games than they dont...yet tournament after tournament is disallowing them because they're "too broken." horsegak if you ask me.

The only thing I would ban if I was a TO is the Host of the Eternity King, and only because it makes the two other lists (which I think are awesome) completely obselete.

I agree with you Pirate. I don't think they're as bent as everyone thinks.

Sure they're phenomenal but they cost an assload. The biggest gripe I see is KFA. but when you look at it KFA cost the same number of points as 3.5 steam tanks or 14.6 demigryphs. They aren't as durable as people make them out to be and if you just adapt you can deal with them.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:
I'm not a huge fan of the Khaine magic changes (though I think there's some merit to some of them...just not the package as it stands)

I've been out of the loop too, can you explain these changes?

It'll be easier if I just PM you.

basics:
4d6 magic phase (highest 2d6 dispel)
new undispellable spells for lvl 3+
Can recast >15 spells if successfully cast
everyone knows every spell from their lore.

Yeah people are losing their gak over the super lords and new magic.

I raised an eyebrow at the new magic, but i've now played probably approaching 2 dozen games with the new magic rules, and it's so over the moon superior to what was existing i can't even describe. Are there issues ? Sure. But the magic phase is a more fun, less predictable, lesss
Little spell, Little Spell, LEVELSIXWITHSIXDICE affair (go ahead and mix the order of those three up how you see fit, but that's just about every magic phase, ever).


The super lords are definitely powerful, but at their price point they should be. My only kvetch's at all are that KFA should probably be 1000 points (he is *beastly*. His melee abilities pretty much say "take thing i am in Base to Base contact with off the table at end of melee phase"). I know he costs 870 because he's not a level 4 like the other 1k point super lords (though i think glottkin is 870 too... i'd need to double check), but goddamn... he is hands down the single most dangerous model in melee in the game.

The only other bitch i have is that despite the fact that they are limited to which Hosts they can go in, both Alarielle's are under-pointed as well, and can be abused. The only balancing factor to Avatar of Isha is that you can only take her in the much less powerful Host of the Phoenix King. If you could take her at 375 points in a Host of the Eternity King list, she's be absolutely broken beyond belief at 375. Incarnate of Life is somewhat better at 570, but still absolutely horsegak good for those points.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:
I'm not a huge fan of the Khaine magic changes (though I think there's some merit to some of them...just not the package as it stands), and many of the new super characters are rather obnoxious. However I'm still absolutely loving what GW has done with the ET.

What bothers me, though, is how many people are just plain unwilling to adapt. My club has been playing around with all the new super heroes for months now and they die more games than they dont...yet tournament after tournament is disallowing them because they're "too broken." horsegak if you ask me.

The only thing I would ban if I was a TO is the Host of the Eternity King, and only because it makes the two other lists (which I think are awesome) completely obselete.

So two characters that require zero skill to use and reward point and click play, whilst shrugging off most damage aren't bad?

Cool. I'll just put you down as wrong. Beyond taking super models, the only armies that can actually reliably deal with The super-lords are Dwarfs and Empire. Ogres aren't a surefire bet, nor are demons.

For elves in general, 8 bolt throwers rerolling failed rolls to wound don't kill Nagash. Nor does BS shooting. Nor does combat.


As for the ET magic, it's slowed. I had a game where I rolled 24 dice, and made 2 channels. I then spent all the phase going 2 dice caress of laniph on his only Vampire character left, after I purple sun'd his units off.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
[

As for the ET magic, it's slowed. I had a game where I rolled 24 dice, and made 2 channels. I then spent all the phase going 2 dice caress of laniph on his only Vampire character left, after I purple sun'd his units off.

This is actually a good point ; the magic phase IS a lot longer now, as there are generally speaking, more dice rolls, and potentially more resources to be thrown around, and because of the variance on the primary resource (power dice you can throw), potentially therefore more opportunities to use it in tandem with more rolls to see how much you can use, how much can be used in dispelling, etc etc., as well as just more of the resource in general.

It's another minor complaint i have, but one i'm willing to deal with seeing as i feel the phase is much better than it used to be.

But you're absolutely on point with this: if you roll 20+ dice, expect your magic phase to take 20+ minutes.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:
I'm not a huge fan of the Khaine magic changes (though I think there's some merit to some of them...just not the package as it stands), and many of the new super characters are rather obnoxious. However I'm still absolutely loving what GW has done with the ET.

What bothers me, though, is how many people are just plain unwilling to adapt. My club has been playing around with all the new super heroes for months now and they die more games than they dont...yet tournament after tournament is disallowing them because they're "too broken." horsegak if you ask me.

The only thing I would ban if I was a TO is the Host of the Eternity King, and only because it makes the two other lists (which I think are awesome) completely obselete.

So two characters that require zero skill to use and reward point and click play, whilst shrugging off most damage aren't bad?

Cool. I'll just put you down as wrong. Beyond taking super models, the only armies that can actually reliably deal with The super-lords are Dwarfs and Empire. Ogres aren't a surefire bet, nor are demons.

For elves in general, 8 bolt throwers rerolling failed rolls to wound don't kill Nagash. Nor does BS shooting. Nor does combat.


As for the ET magic, it's slowed. I had a game where I rolled 24 dice, and made 2 channels. I then spent all the phase going 2 dice caress of laniph on his only Vampire character left, after I purple sun'd his units off.

KFA is 800 points. Nagash is 1,000. I've seen, and faced, both of them in tournaments. Neither player was anywhere near the top of the standings. I killed KFA in combat last time I played him. Yeah they're awesome but the rest of their army is basically unsupported if you mitigate them.

People do the same whine every time something new comes out, and within 6 months the meta shifts and nobody gives a gak. When was the last whine thread about skullcrushers? Put a bit more thought into your games and figure it out.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:
I'm not a huge fan of the Khaine magic changes (though I think there's some merit to some of them...just not the package as it stands), and many of the new super characters are rather obnoxious. However I'm still absolutely loving what GW has done with the ET.

What bothers me, though, is how many people are just plain unwilling to adapt. My club has been playing around with all the new super heroes for months now and they die more games than they dont...yet tournament after tournament is disallowing them because they're "too broken." horsegak if you ask me.

The only thing I would ban if I was a TO is the Host of the Eternity King, and only because it makes the two other lists (which I think are awesome) completely obselete.

So two characters that require zero skill to use and reward point and click play, whilst shrugging off most damage aren't bad?

Cool. I'll just put you down as wrong. Beyond taking super models, the only armies that can actually reliably deal with The super-lords are Dwarfs and Empire. Ogres aren't a surefire bet, nor are demons.

For elves in general, 8 bolt throwers rerolling failed rolls to wound don't kill Nagash. Nor does BS shooting. Nor does combat.


As for the ET magic, it's slowed. I had a game where I rolled 24 dice, and made 2 channels. I then spent all the phase going 2 dice caress of laniph on his only Vampire character left, after I purple sun'd his units off.

KFA is 800 points. Nagash is 1,000. I've seen, and faced, both of them in tournaments. Neither player was anywhere near the top of the standings. I killed KFA in combat last time I played him. Yeah they're awesome but the rest of their army is basically unsupported if you mitigate them.

People do the same whine every time something new comes out, and within 6 months the meta shifts and nobody gives a gak. When was the last whine thread about skullcrushers? Put a bit more thought into your games and figure it out.

What?

I run elves. And I've already proven that 8 bolt throwers put 2 wounds on Nagash in a phase. Same goes for KFA. At which point they're either regaining the wounds or in combat.

If you killed KFA in combat, then you got very lucky. The same way I was when I shot Nagash off in a round with Ushabti. The whole point of tournament style games is to prove who has more skill, something which super models don't require.

I've killed KFA in combat with Grave guard corsairs and executioners.

22 attacks hit on 3's for banner gives me 14 hits. Gives me 9.3333... wounds. KFA has a 6+/4++ yields 3.8888888 wounds per combat. 5.18 if I'm under vanhels. 6.9 if I have vanhels & vigor.

A horde of corsairs near a cauldron with Mindrazor yield 8.5 wounds per turn. There's your 1 turn kill of KFA, even without the cauldron it's still 7.29. Besides KFA has 0 ranks. I'm always steadfast against him.

8 Bolt throwers don't kill them in ONE turn? Oh BOO HOO. If you want to remove whole units in one turn of shooting go play 40k. 8 bolt throwers cost 560 points. There's no reason they should take out 800-1000 points in ONE turn.

If you park a cauldron near your BT battery you can up it to 4 wounds per turn (Ok 3.999999999999999999999999999) and take him off in about 2. Cast Hand of glory and boost your chances even more.

As for nagash he can be healed 1 of 2 ways. HOPE he gets the lore of undeath heal spell (Dispel or scroll it) or rely on lore of vampires lore attribute at one per cast. This means he is not casting summoning spells & his effectiveness is much lower.

TDA wrote:The whole point of tournament style games is to prove who has more skill, something which super models don't require.

I don't think taking 8 bolt throwers requires much skill either. You yourself have said you hate dwarf gunlines yet you advocate for taking 8 bolt throwers even before khaine was released.

You tout yourself as a super gamer. You routinely claimed how you've "Broken warhammer" and always seem to brag how good you are. Well now you need to adapt. Also guess what? GW doesn't give a flying peasant about "Tournament Style Games" they have said that MANY times. If you really can't adapt & find a way to deal with these guys, jusy comp them out. A simple "No single character over 599 points" would remove MOST of the end times characters while still allowing use of the combined armies.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
What?

I run elves. And I've already proven that 8 bolt throwers put 2 wounds on Nagash in a phase. Same goes for KFA. At which point they're either regaining the wounds or in combat.

If you killed KFA in combat, then you got very lucky. The same way I was when I shot Nagash off in a round with Ushabti. The whole point of tournament style games is to prove who has more skill, something which super models don't require.

To echo Shas above, that's really unfortunate for you that 560 points of bolt throwers can't kill 800 to 1,000 points of character in a single round of shooting. Perhaps you'll have to sacrifice a unit or two to tarpitting him all game (KFA can't break steadfast), or sacrifice a monster or something else expensive to trap him in the open where you can shoot at him for another turn. You know...employ skill and strategy.

As for my luck, hardly. Two ASF vampire lords, one with OTS. The math I did in my head at the time said I do 8.5 average wounds to him, meaning that I got *marginally* lucky. Had my terrorgheist not rolled double 1s for his scream then the odds would have been in my favour.


This same argument comes up in favour of every new shiny toy that comes out. Skullcrushers, nurgle princes, witch elf stars. People like you cry foul and decry the "end of competitive warhammer" because there's no silver-bullet solution for taking them out in a single strike. Then 6 months from now you don't hear about it anymore, because everyone has found strategies to mitigate, disable, or kill them before they can earn their points. Hell, the only player in our meta running KFA in tournaments is already considering dropping him because he's too many points and dies in most of his games. You can get two steam tanks and a unit of demigryphs for what he costs.

KFA is nasty but he can't break steadfast and costs 800 bloody points. Throw in a level 4 wizard and you really don't have much room left for an actual army. If KFA pushes forward too aggressively then you can lock him down with a big steadfast block and use the other 2,200-2,300 points of your army to dick-punch the remaining 1,700 points of his. Nagash is even worse, as most Nagash players spend their entire budget on buffs for him (hierotitan, casket, arcane item caddies) or other protections (crypt horror walls), leaving basically nothing in his actual army. If you can knock out his support pieces early on (hierotitan has no saves, casket only has 3 wounds and blows up, damaging his backlines) then you're golden.



TL;DR: KFA and Nagash are 1,000 point models. Stop crying that you can' t kill them in a single round with a fraction of that.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:
What?

I run elves. And I've already proven that 8 bolt throwers put 2 wounds on Nagash in a phase. Same goes for KFA. At which point they're either regaining the wounds or in combat.

If you killed KFA in combat, then you got very lucky. The same way I was when I shot Nagash off in a round with Ushabti. The whole point of tournament style games is to prove who has more skill, something which super models don't require.

To echo Shas above, that's really unfortunate for you that 560 points of bolt throwers can't kill 800 to 1,000 points of character in a single round of shooting. Perhaps you'll have to sacrifice a unit or two to tarpitting him all game (KFA can't break steadfast), or sacrifice a monster or something else expensive to trap him in the open where you can shoot at him for another turn. You know...employ skill and strategy.

As for my luck, hardly. Two ASF vampire lords, one with OTS. The math I did in my head at the time said I do 8.5 average wounds to him, meaning that I got *marginally* lucky. Had my terrorgheist not rolled double 1s for his scream then the odds would have been in my favour.


This same argument comes up in favour of every new shiny toy that comes out. Skullcrushers, nurgle princes, witch elf stars. People like you cry foul and decry the "end of competitive warhammer" because there's no silver-bullet solution for taking them out in a single strike. Then 6 months from now you don't hear about it anymore, because everyone has found strategies to mitigate, disable, or kill them before they can earn their points. Hell, the only player in our meta running KFA in tournaments is already considering dropping him because he's too many points and dies in most of his games. You can get two steam tanks and a unit of demigryphs for what he costs.

KFA is nasty but he can't break steadfast and costs 800 bloody points. Throw in a level 4 wizard and you really don't have much room left for an actual army. If KFA pushes forward too aggressively then you can lock him down with a big steadfast block and use the other 2,200-2,300 points of your army to dick-punch the remaining 1,700 points of his. Nagash is even worse, as most Nagash players spend their entire budget on buffs for him (hierotitan, casket, arcane item caddies) or other protections (crypt horror walls), leaving basically nothing in his actual army. If you can knock out his support pieces early on (hierotitan has no saves, casket only has 3 wounds and blows up, damaging his backlines) then you're golden.



TL;DR: KFA and Nagash are 1,000 point models. Stop crying that you can' t kill them in a single round with a fraction of that.

The point you two are missing is that 8 bolt throwers is good, but doesn't exclude any army from competitive gameplay. As do dwarf gun lines.

Whereas, the super models mean that you can't run ogres, skaven, or brets at a competitive level due to the games being a pretty much auto lose situation. That's why any TO who has a brain cell has banned them.

I want to bring my skaven and elves into end times, but with the super models, that won't happen, as I like to win on skill, not six dicing a superspell. But hey, I guess the end times fans feel differently about the game.

When has it never been reliant on 6-dicing a super spell, and I will say this, even if you get all 6 dice for an end times spell that in no way means that it will go off, I spent an entire battle trying to get my Lore of Tzeentch super spell to go off and had 6 dice to do so at least 3 times, I didn't even roll bad and was using a level 4 caster and I still never got the thing off. The other times I managed to get 1 or 2 dice to cast it so it obviously failed and I couldn't attempt it again. As far as the super models are concerned, you've been given several solutions as to how to deal with them and yet you still cry foul. It seems like you are arguing just for the sake of argument than any real merit. Also, in the end this is a game of dice, chance is always going to play a factor in everything. DA, you make so many blanket observations (i.e. Two characters require 0 skill is what you said) Use of personal bias, and blatant rudeness of your remarks (waiting for the virtual measuring stick to come out, honestly) kinda invalidates most if not all of your opinion based arguments. If you were more civil, it'd probably lend a lot more credence to your arguments, and how you respond to this criticism will greatly demonstrate that ability (or inability if the case may be).

 Gromgor wrote:
When has it never been reliant on 6-dicing a super spell, and I will say this, even if you get all 6 dice for an end times spell that in no way means that it will go off, I spent an entire battle trying to get my Lore of Tzeentch super spell to go off and had 6 dice to do so at least 3 times, I didn't even roll bad and was using a level 4 caster and I still never got the thing off. The other times I managed to get 1 or 2 dice to cast it so it obviously failed and I couldn't attempt it again. As far as the super models are concerned, you've been given several solutions as to how to deal with them and yet you still cry foul. It seems like you are arguing just for the sake of argument than any real merit. Also, in the end this is a game of dice, chance is always going to play a factor in everything. DA, you make so many blanket observations (i.e. Two characters require 0 skill is what you said) Use of personal bias, and blatant rudeness of your remarks (waiting for the virtual measuring stick to come out, honestly) kinda invalidates most if not all of your opinion based arguments. If you were more civil, it'd probably lend a lot more credence to your arguments, and how you respond to this criticism will greatly demonstrate that ability (or inability if the case may be).

I'm just going to preface this by stating that I played MSU combat elves since the 6th ed Dark Elf book. And I've done it well since then. Anyone who remembers the book will know what that means.

When I state that Super models require no skill, it's grounded in the knowledge that they are quintessential point and click targets. Having played Nagash multiple times, it's painfully obvious from deployment onwards that the only tool available to my army is that I either cast final trans at him, and hope that he rolls the six, or cast purple sun and hope he rolls the six.

To start on KFA now, it's a similar situation, but he's got fly. It also takes 60 non-runed cannons to down Malekith the Eternity King. One in every six will wound him, he's immune to multiple wounds, and has ten wounds.

These are all monsters with ways to neutralise any counter a monster may have. They're the quintessential portrayal of point and click models. Except that Nagash is also a retardedly good force multiplier.

When you have models like that, where does the skill come into play? With my dark elf list, if I misplay a single movement phase, I lose the game. And with a model like Nagash or Malekith, and to an extent KFA, all I can hope is that I stay 23" away for six turns and pick up a very minor win.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:
What?

I run elves. And I've already proven that 8 bolt throwers put 2 wounds on Nagash in a phase. Same goes for KFA. At which point they're either regaining the wounds or in combat.

If you killed KFA in combat, then you got very lucky. The same way I was when I shot Nagash off in a round with Ushabti. The whole point of tournament style games is to prove who has more skill, something which super models don't require.

To echo Shas above, that's really unfortunate for you that 560 points of bolt throwers can't kill 800 to 1,000 points of character in a single round of shooting. Perhaps you'll have to sacrifice a unit or two to tarpitting him all game (KFA can't break steadfast), or sacrifice a monster or something else expensive to trap him in the open where you can shoot at him for another turn. You know...employ skill and strategy.

As for my luck, hardly. Two ASF vampire lords, one with OTS. The math I did in my head at the time said I do 8.5 average wounds to him, meaning that I got *marginally* lucky. Had my terrorgheist not rolled double 1s for his scream then the odds would have been in my favour.


This same argument comes up in favour of every new shiny toy that comes out. Skullcrushers, nurgle princes, witch elf stars. People like you cry foul and decry the "end of competitive warhammer" because there's no silver-bullet solution for taking them out in a single strike. Then 6 months from now you don't hear about it anymore, because everyone has found strategies to mitigate, disable, or kill them before they can earn their points. Hell, the only player in our meta running KFA in tournaments is already considering dropping him because he's too many points and dies in most of his games. You can get two steam tanks and a unit of demigryphs for what he costs.

KFA is nasty but he can't break steadfast and costs 800 bloody points. Throw in a level 4 wizard and you really don't have much room left for an actual army. If KFA pushes forward too aggressively then you can lock him down with a big steadfast block and use the other 2,200-2,300 points of your army to dick-punch the remaining 1,700 points of his. Nagash is even worse, as most Nagash players spend their entire budget on buffs for him (hierotitan, casket, arcane item caddies) or other protections (crypt horror walls), leaving basically nothing in his actual army. If you can knock out his support pieces early on (hierotitan has no saves, casket only has 3 wounds and blows up, damaging his backlines) then you're golden.



TL;DR: KFA and Nagash are 1,000 point models. Stop crying that you can' t kill them in a single round with a fraction of that.

The point you two are missing is that 8 bolt throwers is good, but doesn't exclude any army from competitive gameplay. As do dwarf gun lines.

Whereas, the super models mean that you can't run ogres, skaven, or brets at a competitive level due to the games being a pretty much auto lose situation. That's why any TO who has a brain cell has banned them.

I want to bring my skaven and elves into end times, but with the super models, that won't happen, as I like to win on skill, not six dicing a superspell. But hey, I guess the end times fans feel differently about the game.

Why the hell are Skaven scared of KFA? He can kill rats all day every day while you pass steadfast LD checks and shoot lightning cannons at everything else. He is EIGHT HUNDRED points...throw 800 points of skaven toys at him and he'll go down sooner or later.

Ogres have a problem with him, but Ogres also have cannons and leadbelchers/maneaters. He's only T5 4+4++ after all. If the worst happens and he gets into your gutstar then just feed him a champion/character a turn and shoot cannons at him once he chews himself free.

You need to stop sitting on your shoulders and start thinking of creative ways to mitigate these characters when you come across them. Crying like a little baby and begging for your TO to comp them is the most pathetic of all possible excuses. The game changes, and you must adapt and face these new challenges head-on. Everyone can do it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 Gromgor wrote:
When has it never been reliant on 6-dicing a super spell, and I will say this, even if you get all 6 dice for an end times spell that in no way means that it will go off, I spent an entire battle trying to get my Lore of Tzeentch super spell to go off and had 6 dice to do so at least 3 times, I didn't even roll bad and was using a level 4 caster and I still never got the thing off. The other times I managed to get 1 or 2 dice to cast it so it obviously failed and I couldn't attempt it again. As far as the super models are concerned, you've been given several solutions as to how to deal with them and yet you still cry foul. It seems like you are arguing just for the sake of argument than any real merit. Also, in the end this is a game of dice, chance is always going to play a factor in everything. DA, you make so many blanket observations (i.e. Two characters require 0 skill is what you said) Use of personal bias, and blatant rudeness of your remarks (waiting for the virtual measuring stick to come out, honestly) kinda invalidates most if not all of your opinion based arguments. If you were more civil, it'd probably lend a lot more credence to your arguments, and how you respond to this criticism will greatly demonstrate that ability (or inability if the case may be).

I'm just going to preface this by stating that I played MSU combat elves since the 6th ed Dark Elf book. And I've done it well since then. Anyone who remembers the book will know what that means.

When I state that Super models require no skill, it's grounded in the knowledge that they are quintessential point and click targets. Having played Nagash multiple times, it's painfully obvious from deployment onwards that the only tool available to my army is that I either cast final trans at him, and hope that he rolls the six, or cast purple sun and hope he rolls the six.

To start on KFA now, it's a similar situation, but he's got fly. It also takes 60 non-runed cannons to down Malekith the Eternity King. One in every six will wound him, he's immune to multiple wounds, and has ten wounds.

These are all monsters with ways to neutralise any counter a monster may have. They're the quintessential portrayal of point and click models. Except that Nagash is also a retardedly good force multiplier.

When you have models like that, where does the skill come into play? With my dark elf list, if I misplay a single movement phase, I lose the game. And with a model like Nagash or Malekith, and to an extent KFA, all I can hope is that I stay 23" away for six turns and pick up a very minor win.

Or how about whittle him with bolt throwers and send some of your ASF, S6, multi-wound peg hero in to finish him off. Or tear apart his support pieces to mitigate his magic output. Or just hit him with a brick of witch elves after you chew through his crypt horror wall.

Or heck, while we're at it what about Hellebron? She will wreck KFA and Nagash both.

As for Malekith, yeah of course he takes lots of cannon shots to kill...he's immune to multi-wound. So just don't be an idiot and shoot cannons at something else. Runed organ guns will tear him up (no ward save against those magic attacks). Magic missiles will do work. And when he gets into combat you're steadfast and can tank him with challenges. Again...how many points is he?


Seriously...just suck it up and adapt man. The game changes. Get over it.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:
What?

I run elves. And I've already proven that 8 bolt throwers put 2 wounds on Nagash in a phase. Same goes for KFA. At which point they're either regaining the wounds or in combat.

If you killed KFA in combat, then you got very lucky. The same way I was when I shot Nagash off in a round with Ushabti. The whole point of tournament style games is to prove who has more skill, something which super models don't require.

To echo Shas above, that's really unfortunate for you that 560 points of bolt throwers can't kill 800 to 1,000 points of character in a single round of shooting. Perhaps you'll have to sacrifice a unit or two to tarpitting him all game (KFA can't break steadfast), or sacrifice a monster or something else expensive to trap him in the open where you can shoot at him for another turn. You know...employ skill and strategy.

As for my luck, hardly. Two ASF vampire lords, one with OTS. The math I did in my head at the time said I do 8.5 average wounds to him, meaning that I got *marginally* lucky. Had my terrorgheist not rolled double 1s for his scream then the odds would have been in my favour.


This same argument comes up in favour of every new shiny toy that comes out. Skullcrushers, nurgle princes, witch elf stars. People like you cry foul and decry the "end of competitive warhammer" because there's no silver-bullet solution for taking them out in a single strike. Then 6 months from now you don't hear about it anymore, because everyone has found strategies to mitigate, disable, or kill them before they can earn their points. Hell, the only player in our meta running KFA in tournaments is already considering dropping him because he's too many points and dies in most of his games. You can get two steam tanks and a unit of demigryphs for what he costs.

KFA is nasty but he can't break steadfast and costs 800 bloody points. Throw in a level 4 wizard and you really don't have much room left for an actual army. If KFA pushes forward too aggressively then you can lock him down with a big steadfast block and use the other 2,200-2,300 points of your army to dick-punch the remaining 1,700 points of his. Nagash is even worse, as most Nagash players spend their entire budget on buffs for him (hierotitan, casket, arcane item caddies) or other protections (crypt horror walls), leaving basically nothing in his actual army. If you can knock out his support pieces early on (hierotitan has no saves, casket only has 3 wounds and blows up, damaging his backlines) then you're golden.



TL;DR: KFA and Nagash are 1,000 point models. Stop crying that you can' t kill them in a single round with a fraction of that.

The point you two are missing is that 8 bolt throwers is good, but doesn't exclude any army from competitive gameplay. As do dwarf gun lines.

Whereas, the super models mean that you can't run ogres, skaven, or brets at a competitive level due to the games being a pretty much auto lose situation. That's why any TO who has a brain cell has banned them.

I want to bring my skaven and elves into end times, but with the super models, that won't happen, as I like to win on skill, not six dicing a superspell. But hey, I guess the end times fans feel differently about the game.

Why the hell are Skaven scared of KFA? He can kill rats all day every day while you pass steadfast LD checks and shoot lightning cannons at everything else. He is EIGHT HUNDRED points...throw 800 points of skaven toys at him and he'll go down sooner or later.

Ogres have a problem with him, but Ogres also have cannons and leadbelchers/maneaters. He's only T5 4+4++ after all. If the worst happens and he gets into your gutstar then just feed him a champion/character a turn and shoot cannons at him once he chews himself free.

You need to stop sitting on your shoulders and start thinking of creative ways to mitigate these characters when you come across them. Crying like a little baby and begging for your TO to comp them is the most pathetic of all possible excuses. The game changes, and you must adapt and face these new challenges head-on. Everyone can do it.


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 thedarkavenger wrote:

 Gromgor wrote:
When has it never been reliant on 6-dicing a super spell, and I will say this, even if you get all 6 dice for an end times spell that in no way means that it will go off, I spent an entire battle trying to get my Lore of Tzeentch super spell to go off and had 6 dice to do so at least 3 times, I didn't even roll bad and was using a level 4 caster and I still never got the thing off. The other times I managed to get 1 or 2 dice to cast it so it obviously failed and I couldn't attempt it again. As far as the super models are concerned, you've been given several solutions as to how to deal with them and yet you still cry foul. It seems like you are arguing just for the sake of argument than any real merit. Also, in the end this is a game of dice, chance is always going to play a factor in everything. DA, you make so many blanket observations (i.e. Two characters require 0 skill is what you said) Use of personal bias, and blatant rudeness of your remarks (waiting for the virtual measuring stick to come out, honestly) kinda invalidates most if not all of your opinion based arguments. If you were more civil, it'd probably lend a lot more credence to your arguments, and how you respond to this criticism will greatly demonstrate that ability (or inability if the case may be).

I'm just going to preface this by stating that I played MSU combat elves since the 6th ed Dark Elf book. And I've done it well since then. Anyone who remembers the book will know what that means.

When I state that Super models require no skill, it's grounded in the knowledge that they are quintessential point and click targets. Having played Nagash multiple times, it's painfully obvious from deployment onwards that the only tool available to my army is that I either cast final trans at him, and hope that he rolls the six, or cast purple sun and hope he rolls the six.

To start on KFA now, it's a similar situation, but he's got fly. It also takes 60 non-runed cannons to down Malekith the Eternity King. One in every six will wound him, he's immune to multiple wounds, and has ten wounds.

These are all monsters with ways to neutralise any counter a monster may have. They're the quintessential portrayal of point and click models. Except that Nagash is also a retardedly good force multiplier.

When you have models like that, where does the skill come into play? With my dark elf list, if I misplay a single movement phase, I lose the game. And with a model like Nagash or Malekith, and to an extent KFA, all I can hope is that I stay 23" away for six turns and pick up a very minor win.

Or how about whittle him with bolt throwers and send some of your ASF, S6, multi-wound peg hero in to finish him off. Or tear apart his support pieces to mitigate his magic output. Or just hit him with a brick of witch elves after you chew through his crypt horror wall.

Or heck, while we're at it what about Hellebron? She will wreck KFA and Nagash both.

As for Malekith, yeah of course he takes lots of cannon shots to kill...he's immune to multi-wound. So just don't be an idiot and shoot cannons at something else. Runed organ guns will tear him up (no ward save against those magic attacks). Magic missiles will do work. And when he gets into combat you're steadfast and can tank him with challenges. Again...how many points is he?


Seriously...just suck it up and adapt man. The game changes. Get over it.

That statement about skaven and Ogres tells me you don't know how they play. Sure. You can feed him the steadfast blocks, but your toys are heavily dice reliant. If the rares don't show up on form, then you can't touch the empire army at all. That empire army which is cannons and demigryphs. AKA, things that scare skaven.

As for the Gutstar remark, once he kills the gutstar, the game is lost. No ifs, no buts.

Putting KFA into combat is exactly how to NOT play him.

As for the Bolt throwers. 8 bolt throwers within 6" of the cauldron do TWO WOUNDS to Nagash/KFA per turn. And those masters don't do anything. At all. Other than die.

As an elf player, I can say with certainty, that nothing bar the new combat characters beat on Nagash or KFA.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

That statement about skaven and Ogres tells me you don't know how they play. Sure. You can feed him the steadfast blocks, but your toys are heavily dice reliant. If the rares don't show up on form, then you can't touch the empire army at all. That empire army which is cannons and demigryphs. AKA, things that scare skaven.

As for the Gutstar remark, once he kills the gutstar, the game is lost. No ifs, no buts.

Putting KFA into combat is exactly how to NOT play him.

As for the Bolt throwers. 8 bolt throwers within 6" of the cauldron do TWO WOUNDS to Nagash/KFA per turn. And those masters don't do anything. At all. Other than die.

As an elf player, I can say with certainty, that nothing bar the new combat characters beat on Nagash or KFA.

Every post you have in this entire thread tells me you can't play. All you do is bitch and moan that this 150 point unit or that 250 point unit can't take down Nagash or KFA in a turn. Boo hoo. He's an 800 point model, he's going to kill some of your stuff before he goes down. You "say for certain" that nothing bar new characters beats Nagash or KFA because you're an unimaginative general who would rather bitch on the forums or whine to your TO than find solutions to new developments in the meta.


Dice reliance is a Skaven problem against any list, ET characters or not. Skaven toys don't show up sometimes. That's why you have a bloody dozen of them. I've been hit by enough S10 WLC shots to know what happens when they do. You've got doomwheels, WLCs, and HPAs to threaten KFA and the rest of his army with. You've got 15-point characters to feed KFA if he goes in on his own, and he'll struggle to earn his points back with him fighting giant bricks of steadfast rats unless he's charging out your support pieces (in which case you have slaves ready to lock him up). You might not kill him but you can certainly mitigate the damage.


As for Ogres, your gutstar has a unit champion, a firebelly, a BSB, and a slaughtermaster. His turn, your turn, his turn, your turn, his turn before the unit is obliterated. Pump rounds into him as he comes in, two rounds in the middle there to shoot / attack the rest of his army, then another turn to pump rounds into him once he fights free of the gutstar. If he doesn't go straight for the gutstar then you've got more rounds to shoot at him.

Of course it's not foolproof, but neither is any plan. That's warhammer.


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PS: local player running KFA has lost him in 5 out of the last 8 games. The meta had shifted to counter him from the moment the book came out. To the point where the player is considering dropping him, as he'd rather have the two steamtanks and a unit of demigryphs he could purchase than a single big fire magnet that costs him the game when he dies.

TDA, you know Banishment does work. If you want to stick to your 8 bolt throwers (less than 500 pts), be my guest.
I've played three times against Nagash and I was able to kill him all three times.

 thedarkavenger wrote:


As for the Bolt throwers. 8 bolt throwers within 6" of the cauldron do TWO WOUNDS to Nagash/KFA per turn. And those masters don't do anything. At all. Other than die.

As an elf player, I can say with certainty, that nothing bar the new combat characters beat on Nagash or KFA.

False on both accounts. I have proven that a horde of Corsairs or witches with occams mindrazor will.

As for bolt throwers. 8 bolt throwers at KFA with cauldron, 4 Hits 3.555555555555555555555 wounds (*.5 ward save cancels with d3 wounds avg of 2) so before you go emphasizing TWO wounds, you may want to check your math.

Wyches & corsairs will strike first. So 30 witches w/ mindrazor & cauldron. 35 attacks (21 from first 7 + 2 ranks supporting) but wait, that's right. Eternity king gives them martial prowess as well. Make that 42 attacks. 21 hits 20.4 wounds after murderous prowess. 10.2 wounds at ASF before KFA strikes & oh wait.... KFA is dead in ONE turn. That's without accounting for poison & without having the cauldrons bound spell. You DO have answers to KFA & Nagash you just don't like them & say "Well it's not a real answer because a skilled player won't let it happen." Well your job as a skilled opponent is to make sure it DOES happen.

 Shas'O Dorian wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:


As for the Bolt throwers. 8 bolt throwers within 6" of the cauldron do TWO WOUNDS to Nagash/KFA per turn. And those masters don't do anything. At all. Other than die.

As an elf player, I can say with certainty, that nothing bar the new combat characters beat on Nagash or KFA.

False on both accounts. I have proven that a horde of Corsairs or witches with occams mindrazor will.

As for bolt throwers. 8 bolt throwers at KFA with cauldron, 4 Hits 3.555555555555555555555 wounds (*.5 ward save cancels with d3 wounds avg of 2) so before you go emphasizing TWO wounds, you may want to check your math.

Wyches & corsairs will strike first. So 30 witches w/ mindrazor & cauldron. 35 attacks (21 from first 7 + 2 ranks supporting) but wait, that's right. Eternity king gives them martial prowess as well. Make that 42 attacks. 21 hits 20.4 wounds after murderous prowess. 10.2 wounds at ASF before KFA strikes & oh wait.... KFA is dead in ONE turn. That's without accounting for poison & without having the cauldrons bound spell. You DO have answers to KFA & Nagash you just don't like them & say "Well it's not a real answer because a skilled player won't let it happen." Well your job as a skilled opponent is to make sure it DOES happen.

8 throwers at long range do 4 hits. S6 vs T7 means 1.35 odd wounds, rerolls brings that up to 2.4 odd. Post wards, that's 1.2. Post multiple wounds, that's 2 wounds. I could do it properly, but you can check the other thread where I did. VS KFA, it's 4 hits, 3.4 odd wounds, 1.7 post wards. 3 post multiple wounds.

Witches hit KFA with 5 In B2B. He's on a chariot base. That's 15 for the front rank, plus 3 lots of 5 for supporting. 30 attacks.(If there's a cauldron in there, you don't get horde as per the horde rules.) 15 hits, no rerolls. 5 of those are poisoned wounds. 8 wounds from the remaining. That's 13 wounds before wards. Post wards, it's 7.5. KFA then hits 7 times, killing 7. He then thunderstomps for 4 and kills 3.3. He wins that combat.

The whole issue with this is that you can't control a flying combat lord. Or contain a force multiplier. With KFA, you have one turn to banish him off before he hits combat. With Nagash, you have to take off all the wounds or you've done no damage.

The match ups are interesting. While certain ET dudes can beat nagash, the FAQ rulings for summoning, of characters under Ryze and the like have made it where Nagash can have custom counters for everything.

Flyfeather Torc+ fencer's blades+glittering scales+ firebane gem +hellsteed is pretty nice vs imrik.

Warrior bane+ redfuy, quick blood, flyfeather torc, pigeon pucker pendant, hellsteed, glittering scales, is awesome vs KFA (lore of shadow for miasma makes this money)

All of these big guys can get tied up in combats and challenges. I've pinned KFA and tyerion in zombies before, and hope a terrorghiest screaming can save the day.

Doing any wounds to Nagash is great, because if he's healing, he's not summoning things. Other than his invocation, creating a lot of stuffs.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
He wins that combat.

And you have steadfast. You win combat next round by killing him at the ASF step.

I'll admit my mistake on KFA, I thought he was on nagash sized base not Chariot.

I know it's 2 wounds from throwers Vs Nagash, but KFA is 3.555555555555555555 (rounds to 4) so don't claim 2 on both. For KFA 8*.5 for BS4 = 4 * 2/3 wounds =2.6666666666666666666666666666667. Add that to (4*(1/3)*(2/3)) = 0.88888888888888888888888888888889 the one third of 4 hits times the 2/3 change to wound and you have 3.5555555555555555555555555555556 post multi wound rounds to 4 but we'll just say 3.5 because why not. That's a 75% margin of error on your claim of TWO for KFA.

TDA wrote:
The whole issue with this is that you can't control a flying combat lord

As a "skilled" player you need to try & force him to. Yes it's more difficult, no it is not impossible. My local meta had shifted in favor of KFA and now have moved away from him. As other posters have said most people would rather have 2 steamtanks & a unit of Demis over one ubermosnter that draws ridiculous amounts of fire. You howler monkeys come out every time something new gets added to warhammer & decry it as "The end of warhammer" or "This is SO broken" then a few months down the line you find something new to screech about because you learned how to deal with your previous "issue"

 thedarkavenger wrote:

The whole issue with this is that you can't control a flying combat lord. Or contain a force multiplier. With KFA, you have one turn to banish him off before he hits combat. With Nagash, you have to take off all the wounds or you've done no damage.

If Nagash is healing himself then he's not raising new units. He can ONLY regain wounds with the LoV lore attribute, and only one wound per spell. Knock out his hierotitan and/or casket then start pushing wounds on him, and you can drastically mitigate his raising potential.

And once again, since you don't seem to be getting this, he costs a THOUSAND POINTS. You have to raise up a very significant amount of models to justify that price tag.

And KFA, yeah he flies, but he is also a) much faster than the rest of his army, and b) can't break steadfast. You may not be able to control where he goes but you can hide things that matter and use the rest as bait to lure him into fighting steadfast bricks all day. In addition the KFA build is very inflexible, and our local KFA players are beginning to realize that they'd rather have more tools in their kit than one super character who DIES in a majority of games.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

The whole issue with this is that you can't control a flying combat lord. Or contain a force multiplier. With KFA, you have one turn to banish him off before he hits combat. With Nagash, you have to take off all the wounds or you've done no damage.

If Nagash is healing himself then he's not raising new units. He can ONLY regain wounds with the LoV lore attribute, and only one wound per spell. Knock out his hierotitan and/or casket then start pushing wounds on him, and you can drastically mitigate his raising potential.

And once again, since you don't seem to be getting this, he costs a THOUSAND POINTS. You have to raise up a very significant amount of models to justify that price tag.

And KFA, yeah he flies, but he is also a) much faster than the rest of his army, and b) can't break steadfast. You may not be able to control where he goes but you can hide things that matter and use the rest as bait to lure him into fighting steadfast bricks all day. In addition the KFA build is very inflexible, and our local KFA players are beginning to realize that they'd rather have more tools in their kit than one super character who DIES in a majority of games.

And that is 1000 points you won't get. In a tournament setting against an army who has extremely limited ways of killing him reliably. I.E. Banishmen or superspells(Mindrazor doesn't count as he's got +1 to dispel over anyone except Morathi/Teclis/Supercasters) that allows him to take off over 1000 points. So the UL layer has the potential to take 2600 off you vs the 1400 you can take off him. That's not a good game.

Cost =/= balance. That is what you fail to understand. He could cost 2000 points and still not be a balanced model unless they make it so that every army can kill him. Non LoC Beastmen. Brets(To an extent). Skaven. Lizardmen. Non Khaine Elves. These are all armies that Nagash has the ability to walk through unscathed, regardless of points levels.