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 Bronzefists42 wrote:
I know I'm not innocent in this matter but how exactly did all these weird theories about the "superior warrior gender." Get here?

Because people have bizarre ideas about gender, treating men and women as if they're entirely different species.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Can we please prohibit the following words in this thread: "Woman", "Women", "Grots", "Jews", "Anti-Semitic"?
This thread is about black people. Women and Jew-Grots can have their own thread.
I mean, black people are already underrepresented in 40k, now they are starting to be underrepresented in this thread as well. I call discrimination on that, therefore first person to derail this thread any further must be racist

lolololololololololoololololol

Also, I concur. Shall we start separate threads to argue about these topics?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:

 Bronzefists42 wrote:
I know I'm not innocent in this matter but how exactly did all these weird theories about the "superior warrior gender." Get here?

Because people have bizarre ideas about gender, treating men and women as if they're entirely different species.

Actually, that's not what I believe at all. The fact of the matter is, women can make good soldiers just as much as men can. The only difference is that women are more valuable than men, and thus MEN are the ones who go out and wrestle with Grizzly bears for meat. Several thousand years later, men have evolved into the perfect big, dumb brute to send out to die in droves, and they with the best traits for being big, dumb brutes shall survive.

As far as Space Marines go, isn't it because they are all clones from one person, the Emporer.

@ epronovost Men generally have a far more violent mind-set than women. Which is why men are the ones that -usually- develop the Martial Arts (both soft and hard). For instance, Kempo was developed by small, weak (in comparison to certain other men) men who needed a means to defend themselves. They proceeded to develop the Mother Art (Kempo aka Law of the Fist), from which all other Asian Martial Arts are based off of. It started in the Philippines and spread from there, and everybody took their adaptations of it and developed new Martial Arts based off of it. Kempo originally taught people how to put all of the muscle in your body into a single strike; allowing a 10-year-old to shatter a brick wall. It's really quite cool to see somebody use correct body shifting. Most of the history of Kempo I've found was recorded by practitioners of Modern Arnis (which was also developed in the Philippines). I'm rambling again, my apologies.

Anyways, women are generally more intelligent and would be easier trained into elite commandos if they had the proper militaristic mindset, though men generally are far more likely to have the mindset and talent together.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CommandPoint wrote:
As far as Space Marines go, isn't it because they are all clones from one person, the Emporer.

Essentially, yes. Emprah made his sons, and based the Gene-seed off of them. Thus, only males can accept male DNA to create the new supersoldiers.

 CommandPoint wrote:
As far as Space Marines go, isn't it because they are all clones from one person, the Emporer.

For the purpose of sex, yes, only males can become Space Marines. But as for race, recruits are taken from varying home-worlds across the universe and basically implanted with the genes of the emprah. So if a space marine is black at birth, he stays black.

For the love of all that is holy, can we drop the damn gender debate? The entire thing is asinine, for more than one reason, and it isn't the topic of the thread.

 CommandPoint wrote:
As far as Space Marines go, isn't it because they are all clones from one person, the Emporer.

Sorta, but not really. Think of them more like.... really, REALLY big transgenic mice. But yeah, hand-waiving, hand-waiving, some crap about zygotes (why that feth sexual reproduction matters here, I have no clue), more hand-waiving, only males.

EDIT: God dammit, you got me into it!

 dusara217 wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Can we please prohibit the following words in this thread: "Woman", "Women", "Grots", "Jews", "Anti-Semitic"?
This thread is about black people. Women and Jew-Grots can have their own thread.
I mean, black people are already underrepresented in 40k, now they are starting to be underrepresented in this thread as well. I call discrimination on that, therefore first person to derail this thread any further must be racist

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:

 Bronzefists42 wrote:
I know I'm not innocent in this matter but how exactly did all these weird theories about the "superior warrior gender." Get here?

Because people have bizarre ideas about gender, treating men and women as if they're entirely different species.

Actually, that's not what I believe at all. The fact of the matter is, women can make good soldiers just as much as men can. The only difference is that women are more valuable than men, and thus MEN are the ones who go out and wrestle with Grizzly bears for meat. Several thousand years later, men have evolved into the perfect big, dumb brute to send out to die in droves, and they with the best traits for being big, dumb brutes shall survive.

In addition to the fact that there are fewer women out there that are fit for combat roles as there are men...
BUT WAIT! Dont get all flamy on me yet people. What I mean to say here isnt that women cannot occupy combat roles, its simply that fewer women out there are in such a shape to do so, as women scientifically build muscle slower than men. Therefore, even if women are to serve in combat roles, their number probably wouldn't reach the same heights as men.

Which is why the Sisters of Battle Codex is taking so long.

No, that's because GW is lazy.

@dusara217

Martial Arts family tree is very diverse and difficult to trace back with historical accuracy (I know I am have been working on a book about that for three years). Most of its traditions originate from people without any righting skills and those who did rarely bothered to put their tradition, strategy and technics into book form or outright refused to do it for it was considered some sort of military secret. For example, if kempo is considered an extremely old martial art which forms the basis of many modern soft martial art, so does schools of kalaripayate, a Northern India martial art more than 3000 years old and still in practice. A violent mind set is not required to develop a martial art either, White Crane kung-fu another soft martial art was developed by a nun to protect herself, her daughters (and younger son who would than develop hung-car) against bandits and rapists who hunted on the roads. Necessity brings martial not necessarily a desire to kill other people. I wouldn’t qualify self-defence as brutal or even violent, but maybe that’s just my view. Some culture even see in martial art a form of spiritual experience. The foundation of modern karate is based strongly on a spiritual experience and one of the founder of the modern version of this martial art, Gichin Funakoshi, viewed it as a part of a spiritual ritual and encased it in Shinto and Buddhist tradition. Neither of these two master ever stepped on a battleground and both didn’t even killed someone (even if both had lot of chance, occasion and in the case of the nun temptation to do so). This never prevented them to widely recognise as some of the greatest fighters in our recorded history. All in all, the paternity of a martial art (or any other invention) doesn’t really restrict its users to the sex, the cultural background or the ethnic group of those who made it. For exemple, Muï-Taï, a hard martial of Thailand better known as Taï-boxing, greatest champion are Dutch.

I would also add that men aren’t more violent, stupid and brutal than women. It’s true that men are naturally more aggressive because of our higher level of testosterone (it’s one of it’s side effect), but aggressivity and brutality are not at all the same thing (one is very pejorative mind you). I would even mention that aggressivity doesn’t go hand in hand with violence. Violence is a result, aggressivity an impulse. Leaders are aggressive because they want to convince and take things in their hands to make changes happen, but they are not all violent. The most successful ones are even rather pacifist. Fear, the opposite of aggression, can cause a lot violence too so can brashness. Men are has smart as women despite are shorter attention span. There is no significant difference between the two groups IQ and other intelligence markers. Implying the opposite without solid proofs would be misandry.

I remember there was a guard unit that fought along side the Ghosts that were black. I believe they used some kind of mirror armor. Sounded pretty cool.

epronovost wrote:
@dusara217

Martial Arts family tree is very diverse and difficult to trace back with historical accuracy (I know I am have been working on a book about that for three years). Most of its traditions originate from people without any righting skills and those who did rarely bothered to put their tradition, strategy and technics into book form or outright refused to do it for it was considered some sort of military secret. For example, if kempo is considered an extremely old martial art which forms the basis of many modern soft martial art, so does schools of kalaripayate, a Northern India martial art more than 3000 years old and still in practice. A violent mind set is not required to develop a martial art either, White Crane kung-fu another soft martial art was developed by a nun to protect herself, her daughters (and younger son who would than develop hung-car) against bandits and rapists who hunted on the roads. Necessity brings martial not necessarily a desire to kill other people. I wouldn’t qualify self-defence as brutal or even violent, but maybe that’s just my view. Some culture even see in martial art a form of spiritual experience. The foundation of modern karate is based strongly on a spiritual experience and one of the founder of the modern version of this martial art, Gichin Funakoshi, viewed it as a part of a spiritual ritual and encased it in Shinto and Buddhist tradition. Neither of these two master ever stepped on a battleground and both didn’t even killed someone (even if both had lot of chance, occasion and in the case of the nun temptation to do so). This never prevented them to widely recognise as some of the greatest fighters in our recorded history. All in all, the paternity of a martial art (or any other invention) doesn’t really restrict its users to the sex, the cultural background or the ethnic group of those who made it. For exemple, Muï-Taï, a hard martial of Thailand better known as Taï-boxing, greatest champion are Dutch.

I would also add that men aren’t more violent, stupid and brutal than women. It’s true that men are naturally more aggressive because of our higher level of testosterone (it’s one of it’s side effect), but aggressivity and brutality are not at all the same thing (one is very pejorative mind you). I would even mention that aggressivity doesn’t go hand in hand with violence. Violence is a result, aggressivity an impulse. Leaders are aggressive because they want to convince and take things in their hands to make changes happen, but they are not all violent. The most successful ones are even rather pacifist. Fear, the opposite of aggression, can cause a lot violence too so can brashness. Men are has smart as women despite are shorter attention span. There is no significant difference between the two groups IQ and other intelligence markers. Implying the opposite without solid proofs would be misandry.

Ok, now. yes, I do realize that there are many different origins of different Martial Arts, and that any sex can create and/or practice a Martial Art. I was just using what the Chinese once referred to as "the Mother Art" as an example of a Martial Art developed by men that isn't a "hard Martial Art". In fact, Kempo blends hard and soft like you wouldn't believe; it's the original source of Kung-Fu (which as much a spiritual art as it is a Martial one, and was adapted from Kempo by men) as well as Karate (hard as hell), Arnis (hard and soft used in harmony in a short-ranged Martial Art), and Tae-Quon Do (hard). I'm actually not entirely certain about Tae-quon Do, but the rest of those are descendants of Kempo; i know that for a fact.

Tae-quon-Do seems to come from mandchurian boxing and wrestling from what I have reserched and trace itself back to Mongolia. Kung-Fu origins thow are diverse. The term kung-fu to describe several dozen martial arts is rather new (about two century). Kung-Fu martial arts are also usualy further split between Northern style (harder and more «long range») and southern (softer and more «close range»). Many of these martial arts are indeed tracing back to Kempo, but other to mandchurian boxing and other still have a mix bag of origins which makes things even more complex.

PS: I am rather plesently surprised to see someone with good working knowledge of martial arts culture and theory. Do you practice or teach any? (I personnaly teach karate, but also practiced a little bit of traditionnal Chinese White Crane Kug-Fu)

Thanks for the heads up on recruits.

I'm getting back into 40k and most of my knowlege is from 1st-3rd ed.

I always thought every SM was a clone, I didn't realise that implanting was so common.

I did read in (Descent of Angels?) that normal people were made into SM's but that they would never be as tall or as "mighty" as a "normal" SM so I figured it was a rare occurance.

I always thought it was a bit odd how the home world's of each chapter influenced them so much. The differences in the chapters (the look, sound, customs etc) makes more sense now. Even the rivalries makes more sense

CommandPoint wrote:Thanks for the heads up on recruits.

I'm getting back into 40k and most of my knowlege is from 1st-3rd ed.

I always thought every SM was a clone, I didn't realise that implanting was so common.

I did read in (Descent of Angels?) that normal people were made into SM's but that they would never be as tall or as "mighty" as a "normal" SM so I figured it was a rare occurance.

I always thought it was a bit odd how the home world's of each chapter influenced them so much. The differences in the chapters (the look, sound, customs etc) makes more sense now. Even the rivalries makes more sense

Cloned space Marines are only employed by Chaos Astartes, to the best of my knowledge. In Descent of Angels, the Astartes were adolescents who proved themselves worthy and were implanted with the Gene-seed. There were also people, like Luther, who were too old for the Gene-seed and had to go through a series of costly augmentations so that they would be stronger, faster, and longer-lived than ordinary human beings (and thus be almost on-par with Space Marines; though smaller).

epronovost wrote:Tae-quon-Do seems to come from mandchurian boxing and wrestling from what I have reserched and trace itself back to Mongolia. Kung-Fu origins thow are diverse. The term kung-fu to describe several dozen martial arts is rather new (about two century). Kung-Fu martial arts are also usualy further split between Northern style (harder and more «long range») and southern (softer and more «close range»). Many of these martial arts are indeed tracing back to Kempo, but other to mandchurian boxing and other still have a mix bag of origins which makes things even more complex.

PS: I am rather plesently surprised to see someone with good working knowledge of martial arts culture and theory. Do you practice or teach any? (I personnaly teach karate, but also practiced a little bit of traditionnal Chinese White Crane Kug-Fu)

I currently teach APSK - a combination of American Martial Arts (MMA-type stuff), Polynesian, and Shaolin Kenpo. I've also spent a few years on traditional Kempo and Modern Arnis.

Also, Tae Quon Do is all kicking, where would you get boxing and wrestling from?

@dusara217

Mandchurian boxing (a dead martial art), just like french boxing, involve both kicking and punching in it's practice. The term boxing is an old english term that would better translate as hitting. Traditionnal boxing of the Wessex school, were the word boxing comes from, (an almost dead martial art) originaly involved punching, hammering and even head butts (but no kicks). Traditionnal Tae Quon Do also involve punching and even a bit of projection like in many wrestling martial arts. Olympic and other modern schools have just specialised further. Corean soldiers thow are still train in traditionnal Tae Quon Do.

 dusara217 wrote:


Also, Tae Quon Do is all kicking, where would you get boxing and wrestling from?

It's not all kicking. The Taekwondo I was taught also involved short jabs, though most of the power did come from kicks.

I practice Bujinkan. Martial arts is quite fun.

 dusara217 wrote:


Cloned space Marines are only employed by Chaos Astartes, to the best of my knowledge. In Descent of Angels, the Astartes were adolescents who proved themselves worthy and were implanted with the Gene-seed. There were also people, like Luther, who were too old for the Gene-seed and had to go through a series of costly augmentations so that they would be stronger, faster, and longer-lived than ordinary human beings (and thus be almost on-par with Space Marines; though smaller).

Ah I see. Thanks for the info.

I think Luthor being old and receiving augmentations was where I got mixed up with gene seed implantation, giving me the impression gene seed implantation was rare, where it is more that augmentation of an older person is the rarer method and gene seed implantation is standard.

Do Chaos Astartes use cloning more because they don't have the stability of numerous home worlds to recruit from?

Did Space Marines use cloning more pre-Heresy? (to create the armies that would conquer and bring together the worlds they now draw recruits from?)

 CommandPoint wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:


Cloned space Marines are only employed by Chaos Astartes, to the best of my knowledge. In Descent of Angels, the Astartes were adolescents who proved themselves worthy and were implanted with the Gene-seed. There were also people, like Luther, who were too old for the Gene-seed and had to go through a series of costly augmentations so that they would be stronger, faster, and longer-lived than ordinary human beings (and thus be almost on-par with Space Marines; though smaller).

Ah I see. Thanks for the info.

I think Luthor being old and receiving augmentations was where I got mixed up with gene seed implantation, giving me the impression gene seed implantation was rare, where it is more that augmentation of an older person is the rarer method and gene seed implantation is standard.

Do Chaos Astartes use cloning more because they don't have the stability of numerous home worlds to recruit from?

Did Space Marines use cloning more pre-Heresy? (to create the armies that would conquer and bring together the worlds they now draw recruits from?)

Cloning is very complicated and very dangerous. I have never heard of a loyalist chapter to successfully clone Astartes without them turning into mutant berserker freaks with nothing but an urge to kill. Chaos Astartes employ cloning for a variety of reasons - for instance, if they don't have access to the organ farms they usually run on their planets. Cloning was attempted by Corax (I think) but he ended up just further damaging his already-devastated Legion. Most Legions recruited from multiple worlds and/or systems (in the case of the Ultramarines), but you still have Legions like the Dark Angels who only recruited from their home world (Caliban). I honestly have no idea how Legions like the Dark Angels maintained their numbers from recruiting from a single world
.
Cloning was WAY ahead of the abilities of any scientist except for the Emperor.

 dusara217 wrote:

 CommandPoint wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:


Cloned space Marines are only employed by Chaos Astartes, to the best of my knowledge. In Descent of Angels, the Astartes were adolescents who proved themselves worthy and were implanted with the Gene-seed. There were also people, like Luther, who were too old for the Gene-seed and had to go through a series of costly augmentations so that they would be stronger, faster, and longer-lived than ordinary human beings (and thus be almost on-par with Space Marines; though smaller).

Ah I see. Thanks for the info.

I think Luthor being old and receiving augmentations was where I got mixed up with gene seed implantation, giving me the impression gene seed implantation was rare, where it is more that augmentation of an older person is the rarer method and gene seed implantation is standard.

Do Chaos Astartes use cloning more because they don't have the stability of numerous home worlds to recruit from?

Did Space Marines use cloning more pre-Heresy? (to create the armies that would conquer and bring together the worlds they now draw recruits from?)

Cloning is very complicated and very dangerous. I have never heard of a loyalist chapter to successfully clone Astartes without them turning into mutant berserker freaks with nothing but an urge to kill. Chaos Astartes employ cloning for a variety of reasons - for instance, if they don't have access to the organ farms they usually run on their planets. Cloning was attempted by Corax (I think) but he ended up just further damaging his already-devastated Legion. Most Legions recruited from multiple worlds and/or systems (in the case of the Ultramarines), but you still have Legions like the Dark Angels who only recruited from their home world (Caliban). I honestly have no idea how Legions like the Dark Angels maintained their numbers from recruiting from a single world
.
Cloning was WAY ahead of the abilities of any scientist except for the Emperor.

Now while I agree with most of what you say, but I have a few problems with what you said:

1 - Isn't it hinted that Kriegers use weird, forbidden tech to make more Kriegers fast enough to fight MOAR WARS! Theyc ould be using cloning, as they have the help of the best of the Magos Biologis.

2 - The Emperor isn't the only person able to clone stuff: several pretty good clones of Horus were made, and in the HH books they seemed to be good (they could fight, talk, recognise Abaddon).

3 - The Dark Angels do not recruit from Caliban, and haven't for 10 000 years
Caliban is now a lump of rock that they made into a spaceship. They're a fleet based chapter, and they recruit from loads of different worlds (note that all legions did this, and they had more gene-seed stocks to make more marines faster). That's one of the reasons why they have such a strong "monastic" tradition: they use this to bind everyone to them and not to their individual cultures, and make them into people potentially capable of joining the inner circle and sacrificing everything for a secret that was millenia old before they were even born.

Judo FTW! But as put well by a friend of mine observing our club, "Its just a throw then rolling around in circles for ages"

 Talon of Anathrax wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

 CommandPoint wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:


Cloned space Marines are only employed by Chaos Astartes, to the best of my knowledge. In Descent of Angels, the Astartes were adolescents who proved themselves worthy and were implanted with the Gene-seed. There were also people, like Luther, who were too old for the Gene-seed and had to go through a series of costly augmentations so that they would be stronger, faster, and longer-lived than ordinary human beings (and thus be almost on-par with Space Marines; though smaller).

Ah I see. Thanks for the info.

I think Luthor being old and receiving augmentations was where I got mixed up with gene seed implantation, giving me the impression gene seed implantation was rare, where it is more that augmentation of an older person is the rarer method and gene seed implantation is standard.

Do Chaos Astartes use cloning more because they don't have the stability of numerous home worlds to recruit from?

Did Space Marines use cloning more pre-Heresy? (to create the armies that would conquer and bring together the worlds they now draw recruits from?)

Cloning is very complicated and very dangerous. I have never heard of a loyalist chapter to successfully clone Astartes without them turning into mutant berserker freaks with nothing but an urge to kill. Chaos Astartes employ cloning for a variety of reasons - for instance, if they don't have access to the organ farms they usually run on their planets. Cloning was attempted by Corax (I think) but he ended up just further damaging his already-devastated Legion. Most Legions recruited from multiple worlds and/or systems (in the case of the Ultramarines), but you still have Legions like the Dark Angels who only recruited from their home world (Caliban). I honestly have no idea how Legions like the Dark Angels maintained their numbers from recruiting from a single world
.
Cloning was WAY ahead of the abilities of any scientist except for the Emperor.

Now while I agree with most of what you say, but I have a few problems with what you said:

1 - Isn't it hinted that Kriegers use weird, forbidden tech to make more Kriegers fast enough to fight MOAR WARS! Theyc ould be using cloning, as they have the help of the best of the Magos Biologis.

2 - The Emperor isn't the only person able to clone stuff: several pretty good clones of Horus were made, and in the HH books they seemed to be good (they could fight, talk, recognise Abaddon).

3 - The Dark Angels do not recruit from Caliban, and haven't for 10 000 years
Caliban is now a lump of rock that they made into a spaceship. They're a fleet based chapter, and they recruit from loads of different worlds (note that all legions did this, and they had more gene-seed stocks to make more marines faster). That's one of the reasons why they have such a strong "monastic" tradition: they use this to bind everyone to them and not to their individual cultures, and make them into people potentially capable of joining the inner circle and sacrificing everything for a secret that was millenia old before they were even born.

Notice how he said Dark Angels Legion?
Meaning before Caliban has been destroyed, Meaning before those 10 000 years you've stated
Reading comprehension my friend

 dusara217 wrote:

I honestly have no idea how Legions like the Dark Angels maintained their numbers from recruiting from a single world

I think its entirely possible, if they kept their world specifically for the purpose of recruitment. If you take earths current population, 7 billion, and divide it by about 18 (assuming the avg life span on a harsh world is like 72), as recruits are begun being initiated at ages 10 to 14, then divide that by 2 to get rid of females, then once again by say 10, symbolizing that maybe one in ten boys of that age group are taken, and finally, divide it by, say 100 ( a rather high number) to symbolize that only one in one hundred make it through the process, than you get about 200,000 recruits every four years. More than enough to support a full legion, which typically didnt number over 200,00 astartes anyways.

text removed.

Reds8n

Oh, yeah sure, delete the entire post because the last quarter of it was "inapropiate" I wasn't cussing or even actually attacking the other guy I was just saying that i'm not going to argue with him about anything unless he actually reads what I wrote. What, hostile tones aren't allowed?

 Jollydevil wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

I honestly have no idea how Legions like the Dark Angels maintained their numbers from recruiting from a single world

I think its entirely possible, if they kept their world specifically for the purpose of recruitment. If you take earths current population, 7 billion, and divide it by about 18 (assuming the avg life span on a harsh world is like 72), as recruits are begun being initiated at ages 10 to 14, then divide that by 2 to get rid of females, then once again by say 10, symbolizing that maybe one in ten boys of that age group are taken, and finally, divide it by, say 100 ( a rather high number) to symbolize that only one in one hundred make it through the process, than you get about 200,000 recruits every four years. More than enough to support a full legion, which typically didnt number over 200,00 astartes anyways.

Caliban is a steampunk/post-apoc feudal world. Its population wouldn't even be close to seven billion- that's the result of the industrial revolution for us and the spread of medicine. The total population of the world before the Black Plague was just 450 Million.

But this is Steampunk in Space. By your metrics, the Space Wolves would have died out thousands of years ago, because Fenris would have a population of, like, 500 people.

 Melissia wrote:

 Bronzefists42 wrote:
I know I'm not innocent in this matter but how exactly did all these weird theories about the "superior warrior gender." Get here?

Because people have bizarre ideas about gender, treating men and women as if they're entirely different species.

Patrilineal descent. Most of it starts there.

My Sons of Medusa Space Marines are badly-painted* - it's been ages since I was last involved in the hobby - but they're supposed to be equivalent in skin tone to the average African-American of the 21st century:



* Also, these are the Assault on Black Reach models, because that's how long it's been, so they don't really have Sons of Medusa details.


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Alcibiades wrote:
Because it's Space Dark Ages. The Dark Ages were in Europe.

There were a lot more people in "Dark Ages" Europe who would be considered non-white by 21st century standards than people seem to think. It's not like Europe forgot Africa existed in between the Roman Empire and the early modern colonial era.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Swastakowey wrote:
Yea but for good healthy babies, unless they have advanced hugely in formula, arent as good as breast milk. And even if elderly (of which there would be little given their full mobilization) took care of them that frees them up for another sorely needed baby.

In the grim darkness of the far future, there are only Harlow surrogates for the children of the Imperium.

mhacdebhandia wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
Because it's Space Dark Ages. The Dark Ages were in Europe.

There were a lot more people in "Dark Ages" Europe who would be considered non-white by 21st century standards than people seem to think. It's not like Europe forgot Africa existed in between the Roman Empire and the early modern colonial era.

Black men were created when the United State of America started to need slaves, and not a second before that. For instance, Shakespeare never did write a full play on a very successful black man in Venice.