Author |
Message |
 |
|
 |
Advert
|
Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
- No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
- Times and dates in your local timezone.
- Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
- Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
- Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now. |
|
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/17 16:47:32
Subject: US to begin normalizing relations with Cuba
|
 |
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan
|
source
Obama to announce historic overhaul of relations; Cuba releases American
By Elise Labott, CNN Global Affairs Correspondent
The Obama administration announces landmark deal with Cuba
Improved relations between the U.S. and Cuba will ease travel restrictions between the two countries
Washington (CNN) -- U.S. contractor Alan Gross, held by the Cuban government since 2009, was freed Wednesday as part of a landmark deal with Cuba that paves the way for a major overhaul in U.S. policy toward the island, senior administration officials tell CNN.
President Barack Obama spoke with Cuban President Raul Castro Tuesday in a phone call that lasted about an hour and reflected the first communication at the presidential level with Cuba since the Cuban revolution, according to White House officials. Obama is expected to announce Gross' release and the new diplomatic stance at noon in Washington. At around the same time, Cuban president Raul Castro will speak in Havana
President Obama is also set to announce a major loosening of travel and economic restrictions on the country. And the two nations are set to re-open embassies, with preliminary discussions on that next step in normalizing diplomatic relations beginning in the coming weeks, a senior administration official tells CNN.
Talks between the U.S. and Cuba have been ongoing since June of 2013 and were facilitated by the Canadians and the Vatican in brokering the deal. Pope Francis -- the first pope from Latin America -- encouraged Obama in a letter and in their meeting this year to renew talks with Cuba on pursuing a closer relationship.
Gross' "humanitarian" release by Cuba was accompanied by a separate spy swap, the officials said. Cuba also freed a U.S. intelligence source who has been jailed in Cuba for more than 20 years, although authorities did not identify that person for security reasons. The U.S. released three Cuban intelligence agents convicted of espionage in 2001.
The developments constitute what officials called the most sweeping change in U.S. policy toward Cuba since 1961, when the embassy closed and the embargo was imposed.
Officials described the planned actions as the most forceful changes the president could make without legislation passing through Congress.
For a President who took office promising to engage Cuba, the move could help shape Obama's foreign policy legacy.
"We are charting a new course toward Cuba," a senior administration official said. "The President understood the time was right to attempt a new approach, both because of the beginnings of changes in Cuba and because of the impediment this was causing for our regional policy."
Senators return home without Alan Gross
Gross was arrested after traveling under a program under the U.S. Agency for International Development to deliver satellite phones and other communications equipment to the island's small Jewish population.
Cuban officials charged he was trying to foment a "Cuban Spring." In 2011, he was convicted and sentenced to 15 years in prison for attempting to set up an Internet network for Cuban dissidents "to promote destabilizing activities and subvert constitutional order."
Senior administration officials and Cuba observers have said recent reforms on the island and changing attitudes in the United States have created an opening for improved relations. U.S. and Cuban officials say Washington and Havana in recent months have increased official technical-level contacts on a variety of issues.
Obama publicly acknowledged for the first time last week that Washington was negotiating with Havana for Gross' release through a "variety of channels."
"We've been in conversations about how we can get Alan Gross home for quite some time," Obama said in an interview with Fusion television network. "We continue to be concerned about him."
Sen. Jeff Flake, R-Ariz., and Rep. Chris Van Hollen, Gross' Maryland congressman, are on the plane with Alan Gross and his wife, Judy, according to government officials.
The group of members left at 4 a.m. ET Wednesday from Washington for Cuba.
Gross' lawyer, Scott Gilbert, told CNN last month the years of confinement have taken their toll on his client. Gross has lost more than 100 pounds and is losing his teeth. His hips are so weak that he can barely walk and he has lost vision in one eye. He has also undertaken hunger strikes and threatened to take his own life.
With Gross' health in decline, a bipartisan group of 66 senators wrote Obama a letter in November 2013 urging him to "act expeditiously to take whatever steps are in the national interest to obtain [Gross's] release."
The three Cubans released as a part of the deal belonged the so-called Cuban Five, a quintet of Cuban intelligence officers convicted in 2001 for espionage. They were part of what was called the Wasp Network, which collected intelligence on prominent Cuban-American exile leaders and U.S. military bases.
The leader of the five, Gerardo Hernandez, was linked to the February 1996 downing of the two civilian planes operated by the U.S.-based dissident group Brothers to the Rescue, in which four men died. He is serving a two life sentences. Luis Medina, also known as Ramon Labanino; and Antonio Guerrero have just a few years left on their sentences.
The remaining two -- Rene Gonzalez and Fernando Gonzalez -- were released after serving most of their 15-year sentences and have already returned to Cuba, where they were hailed as heroes.
Wednesday's announcement that the U.S. will move toward restoring diplomatic ties with Cuba will also make it easier for Americans to travel to Cuba and do business with the Cuban people by extending general licenses, officials said. While the more liberal travel restrictions won't allow for tourism, they will permit greater American travel to the island.
Secretary of State John Kerry has also been instructed to review Cuba's place on the State Sponsors of Terrorism list, potentially paving the the way a lift on certain economic and political sanctions.
The revised relationship between the U.S. and Cuba comes ahead of the March 2015 Summit of the Americas, where the island country is set to participate for the first time. In the past, Washington has vetoed Havana's participation on the grounds it is not a democracy. This year, several countries have said they would not participate if Cuba was once again barred.
While only Congress can formally overturn the five decades-long embargo, the White House has some authorities to liberalize trade and travel to the island.
The 1996 Helms-Burton Act, which enshrined the embargo into legislation, allows for the President to extend general or specific licenses through a presidential determination, which could be justified as providing support for the Cuban people or democratic change in Cuba. Both Presidents Clinton and Obama exercised such authority to ease certain provisions of the regulations implementing the Cuba sanctions program.
In an effort to boost the nascent Cuban private sector, the President will also allow expanded commercial sales and exports of goods and services to Cuba, particularly building materials for entrepreneurs and private residences, and allow greater business training, as well as permit greater communications hardware and services to go to the island.
Other announced changes permit U.S. and Cuban banks to build relationships and travelers to use credit and debit cards. U.S. travelers will be allowed to import up to $400 worth of goods from Cuba, including $100 in alcohol and tobacco -- even Cuban cigars. Remittances by Americans to their families back in Cuba will also be increased to approximately $2,000 per quarter.
Officials stressed the moves were not being undertaken to prop up the Castro regime, but rather to encourage further reforms on the island.
"None of this is seen as a reward. All of this is seen as a way of promoting change in Cuba because everything we have done in the past has demonstrably failed," another senior administration official said. "This is not the U.S. government saying Cuba has gotten so much better. It is still an authoritarian state and we still have profound differences with this government."
"But if we hope for change with Cuba, we must try for a different approach. And we believe that considerably more engagement with the Cuban people and the Cuban government is the way to do that," the official said, adding that the United States "will not for a moment lessen our support for improvement in human rights."
To that end, Cuba has agreed to release 53 political prisoners from a list of names provided by the United States. At least one of the prisoners has already been released. Havana has also agreed to permit significant access by its citizens to the Internet and allow the International Committee of the Red Cross and United Nations human rights officials back on the island for the first time in years.
Talks on a deal began between senior White House and Cuban officials last year and happened in fits and starts, officials said. The officials praised the role the Vatican played as guarantor of the process.
Officials would not reveal the name of the U.S. intelligence source, but officials said he was the individual who revealed to the U.S. the Wasp network, which included the Cuban Five.
"He was a very important hero," the U.S. official said.
The moves are far more sweeping than the last action Obama took toward Cuba in January 2011, when he eased restrictions on travel to and from the island. Relations have been largely frozen since Gross' conviction and the White House has made his release a condition of improved ties.
In 2013, Obama drew praise from advocates of changing U.S. policy toward Cuba when he said the U.S. had to be "creative" and "thoughtful" about fostering change on the island.
"The notion that the same policies that we put in place in 1961 would somehow still be as effective as they are today, in the age of the Internet and Google and world travel, doesn't make sense," Obama said at a November 2013 fundraiser in Florida. "We have to continue to update our policies."
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/17 16:47:45
lord_blackfang wrote:Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote:The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/17 16:55:49
Subject: Re:US to begin normalizing relations with Cuba
|
 |
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)
Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!
|
Eh...
A lot of people on the right and in the Cuban-American expat community are going to go ballistic about this...
But let's be honest, it's time.
I think we made our point.
You could argue now that with the Ruble free-fall and economic unrest with China & Central America, now is the time to break that ice. With normalize relations, that may hasten the change to move away from the Castro-Communism environment faster than maintaining the embargo.
As a political junkie, it will be fascinating how Hillary and Jeb react to this. It's a touchy issue in the all important swing state of Florida.
|
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/17 17:05:06
Subject: Re:US to begin normalizing relations with Cuba
|
 |
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan
|
I'm pretty excited about it. I think it's way the hell past time.
It seems like there is generally support for it even with Florida's Cuban-Americans, which I would not have expected.
Interesting times!
|
lord_blackfang wrote:Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote:The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/17 17:14:41
Subject: US to begin normalizing relations with Cuba
|
 |
Fate-Controlling Farseer
|
Not sure how to feel on this, but mostly due to overall ignorance of the issue.
Cuba is such a small nothing state that I don't see how it could really negatively effect us.
|
Full Frontal Nerdity |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/17 17:18:02
Subject: Re:US to begin normalizing relations with Cuba
|
 |
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)
Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!
|
Yeah...
My only complaint is the timing with the prisoner swap.
I know we've done it numerous times....
But if we are to lift the embargo/diplomatic pressure, it should never be done in what appears to be a quid pro quo response to the release of American hostages.
That is the signal being sent to the irresponsible nations of the world is that, so long as there is a political cache that supports this, America may give in to your demands if you only try to ransom American citizens.
Is it too cynical of me to think that this is Obama's attempt to build a legacy and damn the torpedos?
But... hey... MLB should be getting a large influx of Cuban players soon!
|
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/17 17:47:25
Subject: Re:US to begin normalizing relations with Cuba
|
 |
Ancient Venerable Black Templar Dreadnought
|
As a Canadian who has vacationed in Cuba: it is about time.
Nice people, well educated, they can bring a lot to other countries.
They had intentionally and through restrictions learned to be very self sufficient.
This easing can allow some economic growth that I would view they deserve.
|
A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/17 17:50:24
Subject: US to begin normalizing relations with Cuba
|
 |
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba
The Great State of New Jersey
|
Im happy, its one less meaningless talking/debate point come election season. Now if only we could figure out that situation in Palestine.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/17 17:56:19
Subject: Re:US to begin normalizing relations with Cuba
|
 |
Deva Functionary
Home
|
Talizvar wrote:As a Canadian who has vacationed in Cuba: it is about time.
Nice people, well educated, they can bring a lot to other countries.
They had intentionally and through restrictions learned to be very self sufficient.
This easing can allow some economic growth that I would view they deserve.
as a Canadian why does this matter to you? The embargo was only America. Canada and Europe trade with Cuba already so why did Cubans need to be self sufficient? Why isn't their economy already growing? All of South America is right next to them. Who is forcing them to live like that are under siege?
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/17 17:57:24
Subject: US to begin normalizing relations with Cuba
|
 |
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)
Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!
|
chaos0xomega wrote:Im happy, its one less meaningless talking/debate point come election season. Now if only we could figure out that situation in Palestine.
Honestly, I don't see the issue of Palestine that much of an electoral impact.
Cuba? That's a different story with respect to Florida, a state that both party need to win on the way to the White House.
|
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/17 17:57:58
Subject: Re:US to begin normalizing relations with Cuba
|
 |
Decrepit Dakkanaut
|
He needs Congress approval though to lift the embargo (or something to that effect) that Clinton signed into law a bit back
|
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog
Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/17 18:00:09
Subject: US to begin normalizing relations with Cuba
|
 |
Fate-Controlling Farseer
|
whembly wrote:chaos0xomega wrote:Im happy, its one less meaningless talking/debate point come election season. Now if only we could figure out that situation in Palestine.
Honestly, I don't see the issue of Palestine that much of an electoral impact.
Cuba? That's a different story with respect to Florida, a state that both party need to win on the way to the White House.
Never underestimate the power of money that the Israeli issue has. Lots of money in that voting bloc.
|
Full Frontal Nerdity |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/17 18:04:24
Subject: US to begin normalizing relations with Cuba
|
 |
Stalwart Dark Angels Space Marine
Minnesota, USA
|
If Obama suggested it the Republicans will block it. It's too bad. It is well overdue. Honestly I am appalled by how much we ignoring our own back yard in favor of hand holding Europe and meddling in the Middle East.
|
I have no idea what I am doing.
3k -
2.5k -
.5k - (Dark Hunters)
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/17 18:05:13
Subject: Re:US to begin normalizing relations with Cuba
|
 |
Deva Functionary
Home
|
Jihadin wrote:He needs Congress approval though to lift the embargo (or something to that effect) that Clinton signed into law a bit back
he will just do an executive order or a memo.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/17 18:05:43
Subject: US to begin normalizing relations with Cuba
|
 |
Fate-Controlling Farseer
|
WellSpokenMan wrote:If Obama suggested it the Republicans will block it. It's too bad. It is well overdue. Honestly I am appalled by how much we ignoring our own back yard in favor of hand holding Europe and meddling in the Middle East.
Well, we spent much of the early 1900's meddling in our own back yard. Where do you think the term "Banana Republic" came from.
|
Full Frontal Nerdity |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/17 18:07:23
Subject: US to begin normalizing relations with Cuba
|
 |
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)
Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!
|
djones520 wrote: whembly wrote:chaos0xomega wrote:Im happy, its one less meaningless talking/debate point come election season. Now if only we could figure out that situation in Palestine.
Honestly, I don't see the issue of Palestine that much of an electoral impact. Cuba? That's a different story with respect to Florida, a state that both party need to win on the way to the White House. Never underestimate the power of money that the Israeli issue has. Lots of money in that voting bloc.
Hmmm... good point. Sen. Bob Menendez (D-NJ) responded: Trading Mr. Gross for three convicted criminals sets an extremely dangerous precedent. It invites dictatorial and rogue regimes to use Americans serving overseas as bargaining chips. I fear that today’s actions will put at risk the thousands of Americans that work overseas to support civil society, advocate for access to information, provide humanitarian services, and promote democratic reforms. This asymmetrical trade will invite further belligerence toward Cuba’s opposition movement and the hardening of the government’s dictatorial hold on its people. Sen. Marco Rubio (R-FL) responded: “It’s absurd, and it’s part of a long record of coddling dictators and tyrants by the Obama administration" Rep. Ros-Lehtinen (R-FL) responded: “The liberalization policies aimed at easing trade and remittances to Cuba is another propaganda coup for the Castro brothers, who will now fill their coffers with more money at the expense of the Cuban people. It is quite possible that this unilateral action by the President without Congressional consultation is in violation of the following U.S. laws: Cuban Liberty and Democratic Solidarity (LIBERTAD) Act of 1996, Cuban Democracy Act of 1992, and the Trading with the Enemy Act. The White House attempts to normalize relationships with Cuba without the approval of Congress may be in direct violation of Helms-Burton that specifically states that all political prisoners must be released and free and fair elections must be held before establishing a diplomatic relationship. This misguided action by President Obama will embolden the Castro regime to continue its illicit activities, trample on fundamental freedoms, and disregard democratic principles.” Seems there's plenty of angst here... and pretty quick too. Automatically Appended Next Post: WellSpokenMan wrote:If Obama suggested it the Republicans will block it. It's too bad. It is well overdue. Honestly I am appalled by how much we ignoring our own back yard in favor of hand holding Europe and meddling in the Middle East.
Are you saying that the Republicans don't have an argument, except that it's Obama? Automatically Appended Next Post: Laemos wrote: Jihadin wrote:He needs Congress approval though to lift the embargo (or something to that effect) that Clinton signed into law a bit back
he will just do an executive order or a memo.
No can do... the Embargo is pretty damn clear-cut. He can't use his Prosecutorial Discretion to overturn this statute.
|
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/12/17 18:10:22
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/17 18:13:07
Subject: US to begin normalizing relations with Cuba
|
 |
Battlefield Tourist
MN (Currently in WY)
|
Oh good.
Have we finally learned that the best way to beat Communism was to let them make a little money?
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/17 18:13:45
Support Blood and Spectacles Publishing:
https://www.patreon.com/Bloodandspectaclespublishing |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/17 18:15:41
Subject: US to begin normalizing relations with Cuba
|
 |
Stalwart Dark Angels Space Marine
Minnesota, USA
|
djones520 wrote: WellSpokenMan wrote:If Obama suggested it the Republicans will block it. It's too bad. It is well overdue. Honestly I am appalled by how much we ignoring our own back yard in favor of hand holding Europe and meddling in the Middle East.
Well, we spent much of the early 1900's meddling in our own back yard. Where do you think the term "Banana Republic" came from.
Yes, we should meddle less everywhere. Invading Hispaniola and Mexico is a different matter than normalizing relations with Cuba. Wilson was a dangerously incompetent President. I'd like to think we could do better now. I think we could use a better neighborhood policy then drugs and communism are bad. Regardless, it is time for Europe to put on their big boy panties and handle their Don't bypass the language filter like this. Reds8n We've been in the Middle East off and on (mostly on) for the last 30 years and have little but grief to show for it.
|
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/12/18 08:42:48
I have no idea what I am doing.
3k -
2.5k -
.5k - (Dark Hunters)
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/17 18:16:52
Subject: Re:US to begin normalizing relations with Cuba
|
 |
Decrepit Dakkanaut
|
Cuba more likely have to hit "Bench marks" to have the embargo lifted
|
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog
Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/17 18:22:24
Subject: US to begin normalizing relations with Cuba
|
 |
Stalwart Dark Angels Space Marine
Minnesota, USA
|
Automatically Appended Next Post:
whembly wrote:[
WellSpokenMan wrote:If Obama suggested it the Republicans will block it. It's too bad. It is well overdue. Honestly I am appalled by how much we ignoring our own back yard in favor of hand holding Europe and meddling in the Middle East.
Are you saying that the Republicans don't have an argument, except that it's Obama?
Not at all. There are valid arguements for most political issues. However, the biggest reason that Republicans will oppose it is because Obama suggested it. If Bush had suggested it the Democrats would complain. There is no intellect in politics anymore. Someone who identifies strongly as either a Democrat or Republican automatically puts a disclaimer on their opinion. Someone who does not think for themselves is hard to take seriously.
|
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/12/17 18:23:44
I have no idea what I am doing.
3k -
2.5k -
.5k - (Dark Hunters)
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/17 18:42:40
Subject: Re:US to begin normalizing relations with Cuba
|
 |
Did Fulgrim Just Behead Ferrus?
|
Jihadin wrote:Cuba more likely have to hit "Bench marks" to have the embargo lifted
Benchmark #1: produce enough cigars to meet American demand so that prices don't skyrocket.
|
"Through the darkness of future past, the magician longs to see.
One chants out between two worlds: Fire, walk with me." - Twin Peaks
"You listen to me. While I will admit to a certain cynicism, the fact is that I am a naysayer and hatchetman in the fight against violence. I pride myself in taking a punch and I'll gladly take another because I choose to live my life in the company of Gandhi and King. My concerns are global. I reject absolutely revenge, aggression, and retaliation. The foundation of such a method... is love. I love you Sheriff Truman." - Twin Peaks |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/17 18:53:28
Subject: US to begin normalizing relations with Cuba
|
 |
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)
Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!
|
WellSpokenMan wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:
whembly wrote:[
WellSpokenMan wrote:If Obama suggested it the Republicans will block it. It's too bad. It is well overdue. Honestly I am appalled by how much we ignoring our own back yard in favor of hand holding Europe and meddling in the Middle East.
Are you saying that the Republicans don't have an argument, except that it's Obama?
Not at all. There are valid arguements for most political issues. However, the biggest reason that Republicans will oppose it is because Obama suggested it. If Bush had suggested it the Democrats would complain. There is no intellect in politics anymore. Someone who identifies strongly as either a Democrat or Republican automatically puts a disclaimer on their opinion. Someone who does not think for themselves is hard to take seriously.
Other Democrats has voiced opposition...
|
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/17 19:03:47
Subject: US to begin normalizing relations with Cuba
|
 |
Stalwart Dark Angels Space Marine
Minnesota, USA
|
whembly wrote: WellSpokenMan wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:
whembly wrote:[
WellSpokenMan wrote:If Obama suggested it the Republicans will block it. It's too bad. It is well overdue. Honestly I am appalled by how much we ignoring our own back yard in favor of hand holding Europe and meddling in the Middle East.
Are you saying that the Republicans don't have an argument, except that it's Obama?
Not at all. There are valid arguements for most political issues. However, the biggest reason that Republicans will oppose it is because Obama suggested it. If Bush had suggested it the Democrats would complain. There is no intellect in politics anymore. Someone who identifies strongly as either a Democrat or Republican automatically puts a disclaimer on their opinion. Someone who does not think for themselves is hard to take seriously.
Other Democrats has voiced opposition...
There will always be outliers. A lame duck Prez in the the last two years will always have detractors among their own party.
Just out of curiosity. Why are you against it? Is it too soft on communism? How very 1950s. We trade with China whose civil rights record is far worse than Cuba's. Is it soft on defence? Are we afraid that Cuba will invade the US? This isn't North Korea or Iran. This is Cuba. It's a political issue because politicians are more interested in scoring political points than governing.
|
I have no idea what I am doing.
3k -
2.5k -
.5k - (Dark Hunters)
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/17 19:22:40
Subject: Re:US to begin normalizing relations with Cuba
|
 |
Crushing Black Templar Crusader Pilot
|
Tannhauser42 wrote: Jihadin wrote:Cuba more likely have to hit "Bench marks" to have the embargo lifted
Benchmark #1: produce enough cigars to meet American demand so that prices don't skyrocket.
Yeah, that embargo hasn't really slowed the demand on those. Like anything, they aren't really hard to get if you really want them.
Plus, most Cubans aren't that good any more (so I hear), most other countries have caught up and a lot of the fields that were the good tobacco fields have gone for foodstuffs.
That being said, I would like the emargo lifted, because it would be legal to finally get my hands on a few.
I will also say, as a big R, I support improving relations and lifting the embargo. It is outdated and a waste.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/17 19:24:20
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/17 19:27:41
Subject: US to begin normalizing relations with Cuba
|
 |
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)
Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!
|
WellSpokenMan wrote:
Just out of curiosity. Why are you against it? Is it too soft on communism? How very 1950s. We trade with China whose civil rights record is far worse than Cuba's. Is it soft on defence? Are we afraid that Cuba will invade the US? This isn't North Korea or Iran. This is Cuba. It's a political issue because politicians are more interested in scoring political points than governing.
I'm not against it per se...
But, there's always "the right way" vs "the wrong way" to do this.
But, I shouldn't be surprised. Just look at Obama's body of work in Foreign Policy... history won't be too charitable.
|
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/17 19:58:28
Subject: US to begin normalizing relations with Cuba
|
 |
Stalwart Dark Angels Space Marine
Minnesota, USA
|
whembly wrote: WellSpokenMan wrote:
Just out of curiosity. Why are you against it? Is it too soft on communism? How very 1950s. We trade with China whose civil rights record is far worse than Cuba's. Is it soft on defence? Are we afraid that Cuba will invade the US? This isn't North Korea or Iran. This is Cuba. It's a political issue because politicians are more interested in scoring political points than governing.
I'm not against it per se...
But, there's always "the right way" vs "the wrong way" to do this.
But, I shouldn't be surprised. Just look at Obama's body of work in Foreign Policy... history won't be too charitable.
Depends. Republicans had no problem pretending the Bush administration never happened when discussing the financial crisis, the war in Afghanistan, or the overeach of government security/intelligence agencies. I suspect that how charitiable history is will depend on who writes the history.
I give the President a bit of leway on the how at the moment because congress is completely dysfunctional. I will extend that to the next president regardless of which party they come from until congress cleans up their act. It does set a bad precident, but unfortunately there is no "dissolve parliment" option in our constitution. One of the few flaws in an otherwise brilliant document.
|
I have no idea what I am doing.
3k -
2.5k -
.5k - (Dark Hunters)
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/17 20:05:22
Subject: US to begin normalizing relations with Cuba
|
 |
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)
Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!
|
WellSpokenMan wrote:
I give the President a bit of leway on the how at the moment because congress is completely dysfunctional.
That's an excuse.
I will extend that to the next president regardless of which party they come from until congress cleans up their act.
Presidents have "leeway" based on prosecutorial discretion... not, to enact new legislations because he/she doesn't get what they want from congress. Separation of Power is a thing ya know.
It does set a bad precident,
Agreed.
but unfortunately there is no "dissolve parliment" option in our constitution.
Sure there is... it's called re-election. Or at most, can be expelled by 2/3rd votes from their respective branch.
One of the few flaws in an otherwise brilliant document.
Been working fine years.
|
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/17 20:31:29
Subject: US to begin normalizing relations with Cuba
|
 |
Stalwart Dark Angels Space Marine
Minnesota, USA
|
No, it's a reason.
I will extend that to the next president regardless of which party they come from until congress cleans up their act.
Presidents have "leeway" based on prosecutorial discretion... not, to enact new legislations because he/she doesn't get what they want from congress. Separation of Power is a thing ya know.
It does set a bad precident,
Agreed.
but unfortunately there is no "dissolve parliment" option in our constitution.
Sure there is... it's called re-election. Or at most, can be expelled by 2/3rd votes from their respective branch.
One of the few flaws in an otherwise brilliant document.
Been working fine years.
I disagree. I think that it is working poorly. We are falling behind the rest of the world in nearly every quantifiable category. Our corporations are leaving us, our kids leave high school unfit for the workforce, I could go on. We have a 2 party system that is not the envy of anyone in the free world. When congress fails to pass a spending bill or anything other job that has been given to them by the constitution they should be fired. That's what would happen to anyone else. Dissolve congress and hold elections with every seat up for grabs in 3 months time. The founding fathers could not possibly have imagined the current lack of accountability by our government officials. Our election process is a joke and seems to become more of one every 4 years. We are regressing, held up by our economy and military power. It can't last, but it's not in the best interest of the powers that be, Republican or Democrat, to fix it. So down we go.
|
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/12/17 20:35:00
I have no idea what I am doing.
3k -
2.5k -
.5k - (Dark Hunters)
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/17 21:09:07
Subject: US to begin normalizing relations with Cuba
|
 |
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)
Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!
|
WellSpokenMan wrote:
I disagree. I think that it is working poorly. We are falling behind the rest of the world in nearly every quantifiable category. Our corporations are leaving us, our kids leave high school unfit for the workforce, I could go on. We have a 2 party system that is not the envy of anyone in the free world. When congress fails to pass a spending bill or anything other job that has been given to them by the constitution they should be fired. That's what would happen to anyone else. Dissolve congress and hold elections with every seat up for grabs in 3 months time. The founding fathers could not possibly have imagined the current lack of accountability by our government officials. Our election process is a joke and seems to become more of one every 4 years. We are regressing, held up by our economy and military power. It can't last, but it's not in the best interest of the powers that be, Republican or Democrat, to fix it. So down we go.
It's safe to say that I've been vocal about how things are going... particularly towards the Democrat side of the party. But, the Republicans ain't looking like fething angels either.
However, I ain't that pessimistic.
I simply think the old guards need to retire from politics (ie, the Baby Boomers). Get more new blood in... which this last election did admirably.
Also... for the love of God primary voters... no Jeb Bush!
|
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/17 21:43:41
Subject: Re:US to begin normalizing relations with Cuba
|
 |
Ancient Venerable Black Templar Dreadnought
|
Laemos wrote:as a Canadian why does this matter to you? The embargo was only America. Canada and Europe trade with Cuba already so why did Cubans need to be self sufficient? Why isn't their economy already growing? All of South America is right next to them. Who is forcing them to live like that are under siege?
As a Canadian it matters to me because they are a decent people to deal with.
The embargo is "not" only with America since the US passed a bill saying other countries have a choice between trade with Cuba or the USA, not both.
Their economy is not growing due to USA pressure in the past on other countries.
The USA is forcing them to live "under siege".
Look up the "Helms–Burton Act" (Cuban Liberty and Democratic Solidarity Act) where the US tries to punish others for trading with Cuba:
"International Sanctions against the Cuban Government. Economic embargo, any non-U.S. company that deals economically with Cuba can be subjected to legal action and that company's leadership can be barred from entry into the United States. Sanctions may be applied to non-U.S. companies trading with Cuba. This means that internationally operating companies have to choose between Cuba and the U.S., which is a much larger market." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helms%E2%80%93Burton_Act
Canada proposed a bill to poke at the unfairness of the that act (I figure more a joke really): Godfrey–Milliken Bill (Bill C-339: The American Liberty and Democratic Solidarity (Loyalty) Act):
The 1996 bill responded by calling for descendants of United Empire Loyalists who fled the American Revolution to be able to reclaim land and property that was confiscated by the American government. The bill would have also allowed the Canadian government to exclude corporate officers, or controlling shareholders of companies that possess property formerly owned by Loyalists, as well as the spouse and minor child of such persons from entering Canada. In total some three million Canadians are descendants of United Empire Loyalists, including Milliken and Godfrey. The current value of the land and property seized during the American Revolution is many billions of dollars. - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godfrey%E2%80%93Milliken_Bill
So, it is a good thing that a president is willing to take a look at this and improve relations.
|
A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/17 22:12:05
Subject: Re:US to begin normalizing relations with Cuba
|
 |
Decrepit Dakkanaut
|
sparkywtf wrote: Tannhauser42 wrote: Jihadin wrote:Cuba more likely have to hit "Bench marks" to have the embargo lifted
Benchmark #1: produce enough cigars to meet American demand so that prices don't skyrocket.
Plus, most Cubans aren't that good any more (so I hear), most other countries have caught up and a lot of the fields that were the good tobacco fields have gone for foodstuffs.
as a cigar smoker... this right here. It really is a combination of a few things. One, many of the best cigar makers in Cuba left for Nicaragua or Dominican Republic, or Honduras, etc. Two, due to a couple years' worth of "bad" weather, the Cuban tobacco took a huge hit in quality, which has affected it negatively, going on probably 5-10 years now. You'd be surprised how finnicky a "weed" can be; It can seriously grow just about anywhere, but the problem is you won't really get smoking quality leaves, unless you really know what you're doing, AND have all the right things in place (soil, sun control, etc)
|
|
 |
 |
|