Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hi, I may be getting part/all of the following force, and have a few questions, currently having nothing beyond a second-hand knowledge of the game and liking the aesthetic, and probably getting Operation: Icestorm in the near future...

-how much are themes necessary/ do certain things go together specifically?
-how well-rounded is the below force?
-what fighting style is the combined army/this force?
-how much extra (if any) would this force need to run well as a starting set? as a good (though not necessarily competition-ready) force?
-are there any models here that are essential or duds?
-is there anything else I should be aware of, with this collection as a starting point?

Thanks in advance for any advice!

1 Shrouded Sniper
1 Speculo Killer
1 Kurgat Autocannon
1 Kurgat M12
1 Gwailos
1 Cadmus
1 Morat Spec Ops
2 Seed Soldier
1 Shasvati Spec Op
1 Medroid
2 Drones
1 Sheishin
1 Sphinx

Theming isn't necessary. Running a combined arms 'vanilla' list is perfectly fine. Running a themed sectorial list is usually something someone branches into from a vanilla force.

What you have there is a great spread of different units. you've got infiltrators, tough as nails hammers, some specialists, a TAG, some characters. Good for making varied lists depending on what you want to play that game.

What it's light on is basic line infantry. Both the Morat and new vanilla starters would add fantastically to that, plus give you a few more interesting units to play with.

Unfortunately getting line infantry now pretty much requires the purchase of starter boxes, as they come with the basic rifle units which aren't sold separately anymore.

 spiralingcadaver wrote:


-how much are themes necessary/ do certain things go together specifically?
-how well-rounded is the below force?
-what fighting style is the combined army/this force?
-how much extra (if any) would this force need to run well as a starting set? as a good (though not necessarily competition-ready) force?
-are there any models here that are essential or duds?
-is there anything else I should be aware of, with this collection as a starting point?

-Themes are not really necessary. There is something called "Sectorials" though, which are basically themed sub-armies within the factions. What they do is basically that they allow you to take loads of units from that "theme", but no other units (so the rest of the factions units are a no-go).

-Nothing "goes together specifically" imo. However, having a well-rounded force is generally smarter than having only X unit, so although it's not that somethings have to go together, you still can't just throw whatever together and call it a day.

-The force you posted, as Loki mentioned is well-rounded but lacking in basic grunts. Also, you have a lot of Shasvastii (the amphibious-looking aliens) and very few Morats (the red-faced monkey aliens). This has pretty much no impact on game performance however, just something I noted.

-The Combined Army on a whole is, in my opinion something of an elite-specialist force. It's mainly divided into two parts, the Morats and the Shasvastii. As a general rule of thumb, Morats are more aggressive, big-gun, militaristic kind of guys, whereas the Shasvastii are a lot more sneaky. However, there are exceptions on both sides, so some Shasvastii can be pretty up-in-your-face too and some Morats might be more sneaky than others.

-You don't need much extra for that to be a working starting force. In fact, I'd say for it to be a "starting" force, it'd have to be a lot less. With a few basic troopers, that list will be enough for 300-points lists (the standard size). For a starting force you'd only need around 6 - 7 guys. However, there's nothing wrong with getting lots of models straight of the bat

-As for essentials and duds... You could consider basic troopers to be essential. These would be Morat Vanguard Infantry and Shasvastii Seed Soldiers, but could also be Ikadron Batroids and Imetrons. Basically, units that are cheap to buy. The reason you want these is that they provide orders so that your more expensive units can do more in a turn.
Another for "duds" is that you will most likely never be able to use all of these at the same time, they cost too much together and there seems to be too many special weapons for one force. However, it's a good list for creating varies lists.
Uhm.. The spec-ops are sort of special guys, and can only be used as spec-ops when you're playing a campaign from the book Campaign: Paradiso. And then you will only use a single one. However, nothing stops you from using them as proxies for other units.
Another small thing to note is that you can't use Drones without fielding either a TAG or a Hacker. However, you do have a TAG in your list (the sphinx), and pretty much any model can be proxied for a hacker and no one would really mind. So it's not really a problem.

I guess that's what I have in terms off answers. I hope they didn't confuse you more. Feel free to keep asking stuff!

Thanks, both of you, for the responses!

Sounds good, and I like the Shasvasti aesthetic more than the Morat, so that's no serious blow.

The basic trooper thing makes sense- I play a lot of Malifaux, so I'm used to the concept of balancing your composition for getting the most out of your activations, along with there being more limitations on total force size vs. many larger games.

So, another question--

How much is flexibility/unit pool size valuable? I kind of feel like the two extremes are 40k where it's generally about refining all-comers lists and Malifaux where you get to pick your forces after you know everything but enemy composition, practically.

I'm just curious where the force would stand, vs. the operation: icestorm sets, where is it an added variety/advanced pieces, or if the starter sets are just not powerful enough to compete with one with more/bigger options on anything resembling an even playing field (I'm eventually hoping to collect nomads, though am no a big fan of pan O's aesthetic)

Let's see if I understand your question...

In infinity you each make your list before the game. You will most likely know what mission to play, though not necessarily.

Making an Infinity list is similiar, I'd say, to 40k in the sense that you're trying to cover all corners. However, there's the slogan going around (" It's not your list, it's you ") that's trying to evoke the fact that being hard-countered or doing a "bad" list is not equal to an auto-loss as much as it might be in other games. If you make a losing list in Infinity, it might be more the case that the list does not fit you as a player rather than the list being bad in itself.

As for flexibility, it's not extremely super-necessary. However, given the generally low cost of new models and the very kind view on proxying from CB and the community in general, trying out new stuff and buying new models just kind of happens anyway.

vs the O:I sets, I'd say the force is not necessarily better or worse, however, the icestorm forces seem to be 150-points forces (the standard for introduction games) whereas your force could easily make a 300 points force and still have pieces to spare. For one, that makes it hard to compare because well, the amount of units is just so different. Secondly and more importantly though is that at 150 points the lists are almost always the same for every faction (3 basic troopers, 1-2 cheap specialists, 1 more expensive big guy) and as such at 150 points every force is very balanced, without any real regard to how many extra units you have to choose from.
This also holds kind of true for 300 point games too, imo. If you have enough models to do a 300 points list without having to push the cost, you're gonna stand on almost entirely even ground with any other 300 points list, not matter how many different models they have. The difference is most likely going to be in player skill and not list (unless you do something really stupid, like not bringing units that can hold objectives in an objective-based game).

So, tl;dr, more options does not necessarily mean a better force. The slogan "It's not your list, it's you" is actually true more time's than you'd think.

I hope that answers your question.

Yep, that does. Thanks for the info-- looking forward to trying these guys out, and glad it's not going to make things that lopsided to start with.

Also note that rules are currently in flux. In Infinity 2ndEd "tournament" rules, you were encouraged to bring along a "specialist" (Doctor, Engineer, Hacker, Forward Observer, etc. Thus, some lists had to go out of their way to accommodate. 3rdEd basic missions don't seem to require this, though.

If you like Malifaux's system, try YAMS (Yet Another Mission System) for Infinity. It closely echoes Malifaux's Schemes in that you are given an asymmetric objective different from your opponent. You can keep this hidden or reveal it before the game for double points.
http://wargamingtrader.com/files/downloads/YAMS%201.1.pdf

However, unlike Malifaux, there is no picking of faction then mission, then list. Pretty much in everything, your list is brought beforehand.

Unlike Malifaux, pretty much every Infinity model is actually rather capable of accomplishing most tasks. The units themselves are much more homogenized with just about everyone being able to accomplish fundamental actions like moving, shooting, dodging, etc. It's often the rather specialized units that are incapable of performing an action (Remotes can't go prone), have a penalty to an action (Impetuous units are hard to control), or excel at the action in some way (Climbing Plus is Spiderman). As a result, there is no real need to tailor your lists to the given mission.

I haven't played N3 yet, but I've read all of it and have played morat for just over a year now.I agree with the overlying sentiment that you need line infantry, but I am flabbergasted that not a single person has suggested the daturazi witch-soldiers. The base version at 14 points is the same as the vanguard equivalent but has smoke grenades, an impetuous order, martial arts lvl 4 mimetism (to make up for losing all cover bonuses to impetuous-ness) and cc21. One of the best cheerleaders in the game... up there with the gakis at 4pts.

The list above is actually kind of similar to some that I've had success with in the past... it's got lot's of tricks and a nice artillery piece. To be specific the units I've used above are seed soldiers, gwailo (great to always have cover... but I tend to use him as a distraction), shrouded (good all around camo user... ive used the sniper, combi, hacker, and minelayer versions... the minelayer being a standout) ,kurgat (toys), drones ( pretty much everyone's are the same... good as repeaters and total reaction hmg/plasma. Can't wait to try out the smart missles), spekulo killer (great assassin... and got better. Expensive but worth it), and cadmus (underwhelming).

Hope this helps

Blasphemy wrote:
I haven't played N3 yet, but I've read all of it and have played morat for just over a year now.I agree with the overlying sentiment that you need line infantry, but I am flabbergasted that not a single person has suggested the daturazi witch-soldiers. The base version at 14 points is the same as the vanguard equivalent but has smoke grenades, an impetuous order, martial arts lvl 4 mimetism (to make up for losing all cover bonuses to impetuous-ness) and cc21. One of the best cheerleaders in the game... up there with the gakis at 4pts.

The bolded is why I didn't recommend them. He has a lot of specialist units right now, but almost no line infantry, which play a huge part in the game. Daturazi are now Extremely Impetuous, which means they can never claim cover, and require the spending of a Regular order to cancel their Impetuous order if you don't want them running into an enemies line of sight and getting capped in the face. They're close combat specialists designed to get in your opponents face. They're order takers. Line infantry are the opposite - they're order providers. Right now his selection of units is heavy on order takers and very, very light on order providers. So purely from recommending what to get next for a new player, more order takers isn't terribly great advice.

True... I used to play these guys regularly as grunts and learned to play around their impetuous nature. I should probably start treating impetuousness as more of a downside now, but my go-to impetuous order was move+ pop smoke... this being a special dodge now helps us even more in the case of an unforseen/unavoidable ARO.

Again, that's fine, but that's not what line infantry do. Line infantry are cheerleaders. They sit in your deployment zone, watch approaches, and provide orders to the rest of the force.

A Daturazi isn't a cheerleader not only because it's impetuous, but because to stay put you need to spend an order. He's not providing one.

Daturazi are light infantry, but not line infantry. They're pretty specialised CC units. What the OP needs are cheap rifle grunts. it's not about playing around Impetuous, it's about Daturazi not being cheerleaders.

Just want to add that I'm pretty sure you can't stop an extremely impetous unit with an order. You can only do that for impetous units.

You can stop an extremely impetuous unit with an order, usually its own order.

Normal impetuous units can just forgo using their impetuous order.

Extremely Impetuous models are basically all Impetuous with a couple more weaknesses. One of them is how to stop the order. In N2 it took an order to cancel, but it could be the units irregular order if it was also irregular.

In N3 it specifies the use of a Regular order. So irregular extreme impetuous models are even worse - to cancel their impetuous order you need to pull from your order pool.

Ahh, okay, seems I was mistaken. Thank you.

Hi, interesting info above. I got the minis, and managed to make a few corrections on the list (below).

Given the heavy preference towards shasvastii (and my preference towards themed lists), I'll be starting with them. So... maybe it's because I'm still just playing through the operation icestorm scenarios, but why are seed soldiers so much more expensive than other guys with similar abilities? I think I'm not understanding their special rules...

Also, thoughts on what piece I should add to the starter box to be comparable to the icestorm starters, since they're around 20-25 points/1 model larger?

Shasvastii
Shasvasti Corax hasht
Cadmus-naish agent sheskiin
gwailos (spitfire)
armored corps sphinx
noctifiers (spitfire)
aswangs (boarding shotgun)
malignos (multi sniper)
shrouded (combi rifle)
speculo killer (monofilament)
Seed soldiers (combi rifle) x2
Seed soldiers (combi + lt grenade)
cadmus (boarding shotgun)
??? (some sort of guy with a combi rifle, couldn't identify)


drones
slave drones
T-drone
M-drone


morats:
treitak anyat
kurgat reg. Of assault entineers (autocannon)
kurgat reg. Of assault engineers (m12, d charges)

Well, regarding the Seed-soldiers, they are sort of considered the laughing stock of basic infantry and people playing Shas sectorial don't really like taking them..

So... they're just overpriced?

What should I be taking for line infantry in the shasvasti sectorial list?

Yes, they are considered overpriced generally. But they're our only Line Infantry for low points, so that's what we go with. On higher points we can use Ikadron Batroid or Drones if we have a hacker, but for low points we'll have to use the Seed-Soldiers.

As for what units to buy, here's what I'd recommend for fleshing out the starter to an equivalent of the O:I
First of all, you should put the Speculo on the shelf for a while. Impersonation is a quite complicated rule and she's not very suited for new player or low point games. She's really good to have later though.

Anyway, here's a list I made for you:
3x Seed Soldiers - 42 pts
Malignos Multi Sniper - 42 pts / 1.5 SWC
Shrouded Combi Rifle - 24 pts
Aswang LT - 25 pts

That's 133 points, which leaves room for one more model to be included for about 30 - 35 pts.
You can either go with:
A Malignos Combi (35 pts)
Gwailo MULTI rifle (26 pts)
Shrouded Combi (24 pts)
Aswang (25 pts)
Caliban (24 pts)
Noctifier Combi (24 pts)
Cadmus Combi (23 pts)

Note that the O:I only use 1.5 SWC for respective force, even though 3 SWC is available at that point level.

Also, proxying is usually pretty alright, so you can buy a guy with a special weapon and use him as a guy with an ordinary weapon anyway.

Thanks for the tips.

I just figured out that the slave drone was an obsidion med-tech- so, I'm still trying to wrap my head around seed soldiers... it seems like a fair amount of what you're paying for with seed soldiers is the extra difficulty removing them in that it takes an extra action to score off of them? Am I understanding this correctly? And would it be worth a cheap (I think) medic, or is it really just not worth trying to make them work better and just use them as expensive basic guys?

It would be worth buying a pack of Slave Drones to go with your Obsidon. They're little helper bots that 'mimic' the actions of their owner. While only one can activate per order, having a pair on the table basically lets the Obsidon be in 3 places at once, and each time he activates, one of them can perform the same actions elsewhere on the table. There's no range to this.

The great part is if either the Obsidon or the Slave Drone cannot perform the same action, the other is simple idle for that short skill. So the Obsidon can move into cover and shoot, while the Slave Drone gets a free move short skill but is simple idle for the shoot short skill. Makes it very easy to have your Slave Drones keep up with units that might need Doctoring later on, but still do meaningful things with your Obsidon. On top of this, they're 3pts each. Great little points fillers if you've got nothing you could upgrade to cover the 3pts.

Cool, sounds like my first expansion purchase.

Also, I'm warming to the Morat look- thoughts on which boxed set would be the best of the larger boxes?

The starter for sure.

You'll get 3 line infantry with rifles (vanguard), the Oznat which is a great smoke luncher carrier and also has synergy with Hungries in the Morat sectorial, a Raktorak which is a decent if fairly no frills medium infantry, and the Fauerbach Sogorat, which is the closest you'll find in Infinity short of a TAG that is a walking tank.

After that, you can expand it with any Morat purchases - the Vanguard special weapon box for some more big guns, the Daturazi box for some CC specialists and more smoke grenades, the Hungries (they form a little link team around the Oznat), the Raicho (if you want to try your hand at a TAG), or any of the blisters for them, like Zerats if you want to try some camo Infiltrators.