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According to Codex Astartes rules it seems like a Chapter typically only has 11 Apothecaries. 1 Chief then 1 per company. I don't see how it's possible to only have 1 medic/gene seed recoverer (the second part being the most important job in the chapter) per 100 men. Like, what if that guy gets shot - no more company.

The Iron Snakes appear to have 1 Apothecary per squad which is actually quite logical but the Iron Snakes are as far from being a codex chapter as it gets.

Any other evidence about the typical number of Apothecaries per Chapter?

The 3rd edition vanilla Codex had a full writeup of the Ultramarines chapter - the actual strength not what the guidelines were. The Apothecarion contained:
Chief Apothecary
11 Apothecaries
5 Initiates
31 Servo-Meds

That figure was in *addition* to the 10 Apothecaries permanently assigned to the companies.

 Gashrog wrote:

That figure was in *addition* to the 10 Apothecaries permanently assigned to the companies.

The 5th edition codex makes a similar point. There's the apothecaries listed as part of the apothecarion, but there's also an apothecary on the command squad of 2nd company, which I imagine would be fairly common among other companies as well.

jareddm wrote:

 Gashrog wrote:

That figure was in *addition* to the 10 Apothecaries permanently assigned to the companies.

The 5th edition codex makes a similar point. There's the apothecaries listed as part of the apothecarion, but there's also an apothecary on the command squad of 2nd company, which I imagine would be fairly common among other companies as well.

Only 12 medics?

What moron thought. "Yeah lets not have initiates who are learning medical training go onto the field with tactical squads?"

I think Apothecaries are way more capable than just medics - they're probably capable of doing field heart transplants if needed.

 DanielBeaver wrote:
I think Apothecaries are way more capable than just medics - they're probably capable of doing field heart transplants if needed.

Yeah thats why there should be more of them :/

It doesn't list initiates for chaplains either, but we know they exist. Not having initiates listed doesn't mean they're not a part of the chapter.

jareddm wrote:
Besides, it doesn't list initiates for chaplains either, but we know they exist. Not having initiates listed doesn't mean they're not a part of the chapter.

You think there would be a definite answer on that.

jareddm wrote:

 Gashrog wrote:

That figure was in *addition* to the 10 Apothecaries permanently assigned to the companies.

The 5th edition codex makes a similar point. There's the apothecaries listed as part of the apothecarion, but there's also an apothecary on the command squad of 2nd company, which I imagine would be fairly common among other companies as well.

Ruleswise Apothecaries and Standard Bearers are an optional upgrade to a Command Squad.

Fluffwise it's the other way round: The Codex Astartes dictates that each company will have an Apothecary and Standard Bearer (and Chaplain), whilst detaching a few marines from other duties to form a bodyguard for them is merely a codex approved option.

The annoying thing is, apothecaries weren't always this rare. Back in 1st edition medics were - ruleswise - a mandatory part of any marine force, no matter how small (and whilst we're on the subject, apothecary is a stupid retcon, chirurgeon would be better name).

 Gashrog wrote:

jareddm wrote:

 Gashrog wrote:

That figure was in *addition* to the 10 Apothecaries permanently assigned to the companies.

The 5th edition codex makes a similar point. There's the apothecaries listed as part of the apothecarion, but there's also an apothecary on the command squad of 2nd company, which I imagine would be fairly common among other companies as well.

Ruleswise Apothecaries and Standard Bearers are an optional upgrade to a Command Squad.

Fluffwise it's the other way round: The Codex Astartes dictates that each company will have an Apothecary and Standard Bearer (and Chaplain), whilst detaching a few marines from other duties to form a bodyguard for them is merely a codex approved option.

The annoying thing is, apothecaries weren't always this rare. Back in 1st edition medics were - ruleswise - a mandatory part of any marine force, no matter how small (and whilst we're on the subject, apothecary is a stupid retcon, chirurgeon would be better name).

So gw unnecessarily retconned a very important part of military tactics for the sake of stupid?

 Asherian Command wrote:

 DanielBeaver wrote:
I think Apothecaries are way more capable than just medics - they're probably capable of doing field heart transplants if needed.

Yeah thats why there should be more of them :/

Technically the suit itself is the medic. It reads vital signs, stops bleeding (along with the Marine physiology itself), and dispenses drugs.

I mean, as important as the Apothecary's job is, they aren't doing what we traditionally think of medics as doing.

Space Marines are either battle worthy, or ridiculously badly wounded. There really isn't a middle ground.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 DanielBeaver wrote:
I think Apothecaries are way more capable than just medics - they're probably capable of doing field heart transplants if needed.

Yeah thats why there should be more of them :/

Technically the suit itself is the medic. It reads vital signs, stops bleeding (along with the Marine physiology itself), and dispenses drugs.

I mean, as important as the Apothecary's job is, they aren't doing what we traditionally think of medics as doing.

Space Marines are either battle worthy, or ridiculously badly wounded. There really isn't a middle ground.

What about medical service for civilains that they encounter. How about injuries such as severe burns or how about injuries that cause severe bleeding and trauma? Shell Shock? I mean Marines are not resilient to shell shock or PTSD. That would be impossible to get rid of.

Civilians? 4 out of 5 chapters couldn't care less. As for more mental trauma, that's one of the purposes of the chaplains.

jareddm wrote:
Civilians? 4 out of 5 chapters couldn't care less. As for more mental trauma, that's one of the purposes of the chaplains.

How many are there in a company? 1. Spiritual and Medical are both extremely helpful. If you have one apothecary in a squad, that would increase chances of survival by a 100%.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 DanielBeaver wrote:
I think Apothecaries are way more capable than just medics - they're probably capable of doing field heart transplants if needed.

Yeah thats why there should be more of them :/

Technically the suit itself is the medic. It reads vital signs, stops bleeding (along with the Marine physiology itself), and dispenses drugs.

I mean, as important as the Apothecary's job is, they aren't doing what we traditionally think of medics as doing.

Space Marines are either battle worthy, or ridiculously badly wounded. There really isn't a middle ground.

What about medical service for civilains that they encounter. How about injuries such as severe burns or how about injuries that cause severe bleeding and trauma? Shell Shock? I mean Marines are not resilient to shell shock or PTSD. That would be impossible to get rid of.

Even apothecaries aren't equipped to treat civilians really. They don't have a surgeon's tools in the way we think, they have specialized tools for dealing with space marine physiology. As far as I know they don't even have anesthesia. Shell shock/ptsd wouldn't happen to an Astartes, but in the small chance that it did, that marine wouldn't be worth the apothecary's time. If anything that would be something for a chaplain to deal with, but likely the "treatment" would be more severe.

Beside all this, while apothecaries do serve as field medics the real reason they are even there is to recover geneseed when a marine dies.

 Orblivion wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 DanielBeaver wrote:
I think Apothecaries are way more capable than just medics - they're probably capable of doing field heart transplants if needed.

Yeah thats why there should be more of them :/

Technically the suit itself is the medic. It reads vital signs, stops bleeding (along with the Marine physiology itself), and dispenses drugs.

I mean, as important as the Apothecary's job is, they aren't doing what we traditionally think of medics as doing.

Space Marines are either battle worthy, or ridiculously badly wounded. There really isn't a middle ground.

What about medical service for civilains that they encounter. How about injuries such as severe burns or how about injuries that cause severe bleeding and trauma? Shell Shock? I mean Marines are not resilient to shell shock or PTSD. That would be impossible to get rid of.

Even apothecaries aren't equipped to treat civilians really. They don't have a surgeon's tools in the way we think, they have specialized tools for dealing with space marine physiology. As far as I know they don't even have anesthesia. Shell shock/ptsd wouldn't happen to an Astartes, but in the small chance that it did, that marine wouldn't be worth the apothecary's time. If anything that would be something for a chaplain to deal with, but likely the "treatment" would be more severe.

Beside all this, while apothecaries do serve as field medics the real reason they are even there is to recover geneseed when a marine dies.

Hmmm. I remember reading that. But It would be far more interesting if they actually had the apothecaries in every squad to at least make it so that the squads are self sufficient. Not being tied down because their apothecary isn't around. Medical resources and geneseed recovery must be a nightmare for a single apothecary.

You would think he would have some initiates to help him in the recovery process.

This is part of the reason why the custom Chapter I'm writing up has a gigantic company-size Apothecarion department for both combat and non-combatant roles. Along with a medical partnership with the Hospitaller Sisters in the Ecclesiarch to both train and teach medical practices.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
I mean, as important as the Apothecary's job is, they aren't doing what we traditionally think of medics as doing. Space Marines are either battle worthy, or ridiculously badly wounded.

This. A marine Apothecary in the field is mainly doing two things. Recovering the geneseed of the fallen and evaluating those so badly wounded they can't fight. If he thinks a downed marine can be patched up he'll stabilize him (if the power armor hasn't managed it), if it looks like a no-go he'll give his battle-brother the Emperor's Peace with a shot to the head and recover his geneseed for the Chapter.

 Asherian Command wrote:

jareddm wrote:
Civilians? 4 out of 5 chapters couldn't care less. As for more mental trauma, that's one of the purposes of the chaplains.

How many are there in a company? 1. Spiritual and Medical are both extremely helpful. If you have one apothecary in a squad, that would increase chances of survival by a 100%.

ok first of all you're assuming space marines are as flimsy as normal humans.they're not also I would assume mental health falls under the job of chaplains

BrianDavion wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

jareddm wrote:
Civilians? 4 out of 5 chapters couldn't care less. As for more mental trauma, that's one of the purposes of the chaplains.

How many are there in a company? 1. Spiritual and Medical are both extremely helpful. If you have one apothecary in a squad, that would increase chances of survival by a 100%.

ok first of all you're assuming space marines are as flimsy as normal humans.they're not also I would assume mental health falls under the job of chaplains

Did I say that? No.

Marines are resilient but they aren't gods. Apothecaries would assure that if the squad was far away from the apothecary and one of the brothers who was hit really badly that would surivive if there was an apothecary nearby but doesn't would surivive because there is an apothecary in his squad.

Apothecaries won't be there all the bloody time. I mean a space marine could recover from getting their body crushed, but only if they have an apothecary nearby. Grimmadulas would of died if not for an apothecary.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 DanielBeaver wrote:
I think Apothecaries are way more capable than just medics - they're probably capable of doing field heart transplants if needed.

Yeah thats why there should be more of them :/

Technically the suit itself is the medic. It reads vital signs, stops bleeding (along with the Marine physiology itself), and dispenses drugs.

I mean, as important as the Apothecary's job is, they aren't doing what we traditionally think of medics as doing.

Space Marines are either battle worthy, or ridiculously badly wounded. There really isn't a middle ground.

What about medical service for civilains that they encounter.

What about it? That's meaningless to a Space Marine apothecary. Even if he was equipped to do it, which he probably isn't.

How about injuries such as severe burns or how about injuries that cause severe bleeding and trauma?

Like I said, the suit does it. The fluff talks about it self-medicating, self-sealing, self-tourniquetting, and then the Larraman's organ to stop all but the most traumatic of injuries. And let's be realistic here. What a Space Marine considers a "traumatic injury" is probably not getting put back together again on the battlefield. The Space Marine is either in action, or out of action. I'm sure an apothecary back on ship who is a proficient reconstructive surgeon will be important to him if he were to be incapacitated.

Shell Shock? I mean Marines are not resilient to shell shock or PTSD. That would be impossible to get rid of.

Medics don't do that in real life. That's what psychologists are for.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Shell Shock? I mean Marines are not resilient to shell shock or PTSD. That would be impossible to get rid of.

Medics don't do that in real life. That's what psychologists are for.

Besides, marines are brainwashed killers. Psycho-indoctrinated warrior monks. There's probably very few things they'd consider bad enough to blink twice, much less get shook up about.

And even if there were that's not what sells Space Marine novels - bolter porn does.

Spetulhu wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Shell Shock? I mean Marines are not resilient to shell shock or PTSD. That would be impossible to get rid of.

Medics don't do that in real life. That's what psychologists are for.

Besides, marines are brainwashed killers. Psycho-indoctrinated warrior monks. There's probably very few things they'd consider bad enough to blink twice, much less get shook up about.

And even if there were that's not what sells Space Marine novels - bolter porn does.

Yeah its probably one of the reasons I prefer many other sci-fi books and universes to 40ks.

Maybe its because at least some know that super humans are still human. Otherwise they wouldn't be called super humans.

Spetulhu wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
I mean, as important as the Apothecary's job is, they aren't doing what we traditionally think of medics as doing. Space Marines are either battle worthy, or ridiculously badly wounded.

This. A marine Apothecary in the field is mainly doing two things. Recovering the geneseed of the fallen and evaluating those so badly wounded they can't fight. If he thinks a downed marine can be patched up he'll stabilize him (if the power armor hasn't managed it), if it looks like a no-go he'll give his battle-brother the Emperor's Peace with a shot to the head and recover his geneseed for the Chapter.

Your wrong, actually. They don't shoot them and waste a bullet. They say the lines that need to be said, place the carnifex on the narthecium against the back of the head, and then ram a steel piston through his brains. Unless that is what you meant?

Anyhow, for the rest of you, here is the basic standard operation procedure for an apothecary.

Find wounded:
If mildly injured, treat with necessary medications (anti-venom, healing salves, stims, etc). Let marine fight on.
If moderately injured, amputate as necessary and seal wounds. Prep for evacuation and bionic replacements.
If heavily injured, kill with carnifex and proceed with dead step.
If dead, salvage geneseed.

Here's the thing, I know sometimes ago (and all through-out history and inter-web forums, I'm sure) there had been many discussions about the actual numeric strength of a Space Marine chapter.

There was a discussion about what constitutes a Space Marine "battle brother". According to the chapter organization chart (back in 5e at least), codex chapters typically has head quarter staffs know as supporting personnel who are not the offical thousand. We don't know what they are: they can be "retired" space marines serving as "drill sergeants", or neophytes serving as apothecary trainees, or just serfs. We don't know, so it's perfectly reasonable for us to assume there's an organized apothecary training program in most codex-adhering chapters, that takes promising neophytes which won't 't count as "Battle Brothers" and make them into apothecary reserve forces.

Apothecaries, however, have always bothered me; surely there can be no harm to have more than one apothecary attached to each company? Heck, Space Marine Chapters have strike forces the size of a squad sent across the galaxy, what happens when the strike force sustains severe casualties? In case of death, there will be no apothecary to extract gene-seeds from the fallen. You'd think in time of war, where death will inevitably occur, and considering how precious gene-seeds have been made out to be, Space Marines chapters will make sure to collect them whenever possible.

The Red Scorpions have more than the Codex standard number of Apothecaries, with enough of them to serve in Tactical Squads as Sergeants as is stated in IA4 II to ensure their Gene-seed is not damaged or lost

But yeah the whole 1000 marines in a chapter is actually a fairly loose term and there are a bunch of loop holes that allow chapters to be somewhat large than that.

Every marine knows how to extract gene seed on the battlefield. The Apothecaries arent the only guys capable of that.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Every marine knows how to extract gene seed on the battlefield. The Apothecaries arent the only guys capable of that.

Where is that from? Apothecaries are the only ones carrying nathecium,a medkit containing one reductor is necessary for extracting gene seed; even if a front-line marine had the knowledge of extrating gene seed, they don't have the tools to perform the procedure

 lcmiracle wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Every marine knows how to extract gene seed on the battlefield. The Apothecaries arent the only guys capable of that.

Where is that from? Apothecaries are the only ones carrying nathecium,a medkit containing one reductor is necessary for extracting gene seed; even if a front-line marine had the knowledge of extrating gene seed, they don't have the tools to perform the procedure

there's lots of examples throughout the novels range of marines who aren't apothecaries collecting geneseed from dead brothers.

can't give you chapter and verse on it off the top of my head though.

 lcmiracle wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Every marine knows how to extract gene seed on the battlefield. The Apothecaries arent the only guys capable of that.

Where is that from? Apothecaries are the only ones carrying nathecium,a medkit containing one reductor is necessary for extracting gene seed; even if a front-line marine had the knowledge of extrating gene seed, they don't have the tools to perform the procedure

All you need is a knife. It is of course preferable for the Apothecary to do it, but every marine can do it. Novels from just about every BL author have Marines removing geneseed without being an Apothecary. The only special thing the Apothecary really brings is the advanced medical knowledge and equipment. His tools also aid in removing the geneseed(you do have to cut through a bullet proof ribcage) but they aren't necessary. He also would carry the stasis pods to properly store the geneseed as well, but if you don't have an Apothecary you'll still collect the geneseed. You won't leave it behind.