Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

In 6th edition, the independent character rule mentioned something about what happens if, after casualty removal, an independent character is no longer within 2" of anyone in the squad - he effectively is separated and becomes a separate unit at the end of the phase.

In 7th, I can't find mention of that occurrence, the rules simply stating that the ONLY time an IC can leave a unit is voluntarily, during the owning player's movement phase.

Is the rule gone? Are you always staying attached through the entire enemy turn, even if a slew of Look Out Sirs clears every single model from within a 6" radius of the IC within his unit?

whatsup

Um.....asking a question about rules, in the rules forum.... PMs are best for contacting me directly, mate.

The only thing close to the Rule is thus:
If an Independent Character joins a unit, and all other models in that unit are killed, he again becomes a unit of one model at the start of the following phase.
- Independent Characters, Joining and Leaving a Unit

BRB page 166 states the IC may only leave a unit during the movement phase. He is just out of coherency in this case. During the following movement phase, he can "move" out of the unit, even if no models actually move. Only then has he left the unit.

So what happens if you shoot a unit of "chaos marines with chaos lord joined" and all the chaos marines die - can you charge the lord? He's a separate unit now.

To answer the OP's question: yeah, it looks like this is a subtle change from 6th edition. If the intervening models die, the IC remains part of the unit (just out of coherence). On the next turn, the IC can either just leave the unit, or attempt to move back into coherence.

 Spellbound wrote:
So what happens if you shoot a unit of "chaos marines with chaos lord joined" and all the chaos marines die - can you charge the lord? He's a separate unit now.

He's not, though - you are charging the combined marine+lord unit, so the chaos lord remains are valid target.

Related question- if the unit had a Soul Blaze marker in it, or a positive/negative modifier on it, would it disappear at the beginning of the movement phase when the IC ceases being a unit of Chaos Marines and reverts to being a Chaos Lord?

 Jimsolo wrote:
Related question- if the unit had a Soul Blaze marker in it, or a positive/negative modifier on it, would it disappear at the beginning of the movement phase when the IC ceases being a unit of Chaos Marines and reverts to being a Chaos Lord?

No, he would still have a Soul Blaze marker (provided it didn't go out at the end of the previous turn). Buffs and debuffs are shared by ICs and the units they are joined to and if an IC leaves, the buffs/debuffs go with them. Important to note that an IC cannot 'carry' a buff/debuff from one unit into another; only the IC will continue to be affected AND an IC cannot gain a buff/debuff by joining a unit that already has a buff/debuff in effect. This rule was also in 6th, but matters less now because movement precedes the Psychic Phase.

This is all in the BRB, p 166, right column, last subsection.

I disagree, DanielBeaver.

The Independent Character Rule informs us that the Independent Character counts as part of the Joined Unit for all Rule Purposes. If the Rule was to create a 'Combined Unit' then instructions telling us to count the Independent Character as a member of the Joined Unit does not make any sense, we would instead have instructions specific to this 'Combined Unit.' We would also require instructions specific to the Non-Independent Character Models looking to complete this process. Without such instructions they lack the ability to leave their original Units, let alone a way to become members of this Combined Unit. The Rule quoted goes on to state the Independent Character again becomes a unit of one model at the start of the Phase, further informing us that the Model returns to it's original Unit when this Rule triggers.

Probably not intended by the Authors but the Lord would return to the 'Chaos Lord Unit' before the Charge against the 'Chaos Marine Unit' is announced....

 DanielBeaver wrote:
To answer the OP's question: yeah, it looks like this is a subtle change from 6th edition. If the intervening models die, the IC remains part of the unit (just out of coherence). On the next turn, the IC can either just leave the unit, or attempt to move back into coherence.

 Spellbound wrote:
So what happens if you shoot a unit of "chaos marines with chaos lord joined" and all the chaos marines die - can you charge the lord? He's a separate unit now.

He's not, though - you are charging the combined marine+lord unit, so the chaos lord remains are valid target.

Yes he is a separate unit.

He was joined to a unit of chaos marines, and when an IC is joined he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes.

So the unit you shot at is no longer there, as the IC is a different unit

Same goes for soulblaze.

I agree with Jinx, although it's not HIWPI and possibly not RAI (it smells like a loophole), RAW the Chaos Lord becomes a different unit at the start of the next phase, and is therefore not the unit that was shot at.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 DanielBeaver wrote:
To answer the OP's question: yeah, it looks like this is a subtle change from 6th edition. If the intervening models die, the IC remains part of the unit (just out of coherence). On the next turn, the IC can either just leave the unit, or attempt to move back into coherence.

 Spellbound wrote:
So what happens if you shoot a unit of "chaos marines with chaos lord joined" and all the chaos marines die - can you charge the lord? He's a separate unit now.

He's not, though - you are charging the combined marine+lord unit, so the chaos lord remains are valid target.

Yes he is a separate unit.

He was joined to a unit of chaos marines, and when an IC is joined he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes.

So the unit you shot at is no longer there, as the IC is a different unit

Same goes for soulblaze.

In regards to ongoing effects (like soulblaze) IC rules state the ongoing effect continues to be suffered if the IC leaves the unit. Soulblaze is actually one of the examples. Iirc blind is the other example (which is model not unit based, like soulblaze).

 Nem wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 DanielBeaver wrote:
To answer the OP's question: yeah, it looks like this is a subtle change from 6th edition. If the intervening models die, the IC remains part of the unit (just out of coherence). On the next turn, the IC can either just leave the unit, or attempt to move back into coherence.

 Spellbound wrote:
So what happens if you shoot a unit of "chaos marines with chaos lord joined" and all the chaos marines die - can you charge the lord? He's a separate unit now.

He's not, though - you are charging the combined marine+lord unit, so the chaos lord remains are valid target.

Yes he is a separate unit.

He was joined to a unit of chaos marines, and when an IC is joined he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes.

So the unit you shot at is no longer there, as the IC is a different unit

Same goes for soulblaze.

In regards to ongoing effects (like soulblaze) IC rules state the ongoing effect continues to be suffered if the IC leaves the unit. Soulblaze is actually one of the examples. Iirc blind is the other example (which is model not unit based, like soulblaze).

That is correct, I forgot about that tidbit in the IC rules.

I ran into a similar situation during a game this weekend; I was playing a game with my friend, who fielded Canis Wolfborn and Harald Deathwolf as part of a unit of Fenrisisan Wolves. Canis and Harald were located on opposite ends of a long line of wolves, which I proceeded to largely wipe out during the shooting phase. I then assaulted Canis, who was now separated from the unit by a good 4-6", but my buddy said that he could use his pile in moves to bring Harald and the rest of the wolves in, which resulted in my Dreadnoughts and Assault Marines getting the crap stomped out of them. Was this entirely kosher?

 BrokenRecord wrote:
I ran into a similar situation during a game this weekend; I was playing a game with my friend, who fielded Canis Wolfborn and Harald Deathwolf as part of a unit of Fenrisisan Wolves. Canis and Harald were located on opposite ends of a long line of wolves, which I proceeded to largely wipe out during the shooting phase. I then assaulted Canis, who was now separated from the unit by a good 4-6", but my buddy said that he could use his pile in moves to bring Harald and the rest of the wolves in, which resulted in my Dreadnoughts and Assault Marines getting the crap stomped out of them. Was this entirely kosher?

Seems to be fairly dissimilar to me. However: Once assaulted, the thinned out unit (because you can't be 'shot out of' a unit' unless the entire unit, save the character, is gone) will get a 3" pile in at initiative and another 3" pile in at the end of the combat.

Now, if there's a character in a conga-line of a lot of models with a character on one end, and every model in between the character and the last model is killed, and then the one surviving model from the unit (not the character) is assaulted, and after the pile in moves (all of them), the last model is dead but the character is not in base-to-base, then, yes, the character will have been 'assaulted out of the unit'.

Not sure if this helps much.