Cauldron of Blood and Bolt Throwers

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**nosferatu1001**

thedarkavenger wrote:
kooshlord wrote:
From BRB: page 66: What Special Rules Does It Have?
"It may seem obvious, but unless stated otherwise, a model does not have a special rule."

BRB: page 108: The Crew
"When the war machine suffers a wound, remove a crew model."

BRB: page 109: Movement
"Remember that all distances are measured from the war machine model itself."

So the war machine and crew are distinct models. These models collectively are one unit.

in Warhammer - Dark Elves, pages 39 and 94 both agree that the crew have murderous prowess, while the war machine has "repeater bolt thrower". As a model does not have a special rule "unless stated otherwise", the bolt thrower model does not have murderous prowess.

The Cauldron of Blood: Strength of Khaine special rule on page 47 of warhammer - Dark Elves applies to "Friendly Models with the Murderous Prowess special rule..."

While "A war machine unit comprises the machine itself, plus its crew" (BRB: page 108, The Crew), the bolt thrower Model (brb pg 109) does not have the murderous prowess special rule (DE pg 39,94) and gains no benefit from the CoB (BE pg 47).

This resolves the issue to my satisfaction. If anyone has a RAW sourced quote which throws a wrench into this interpretation I'd love to hear it. While I appreciate the fine art of debate as much as the next Dakkaite, I shall not further respond to this thread in the absence of such a quote. Thanks to all for your thoughts!

You are ignoring half of the crew entry. All of that is irrelevent, as the war machine is the extent of the model. As per the rules.

Again, the model is the bolt thrower itself. The rule affects the model as a whole. It's not like hatred, which specifically affects the elf only. It's for the entire model.

Apart from the explicit rule stating the crew are models, you would be correct.

As you keep ignoring that rule, your argument is a little weak.

**thedarkavenger**

nosferatu1001 wrote:
thedarkavenger wrote:
kooshlord wrote:
From BRB: page 66: What Special Rules Does It Have?
"It may seem obvious, but unless stated otherwise, a model does not have a special rule."

BRB: page 108: The Crew
"When the war machine suffers a wound, remove a crew model."

BRB: page 109: Movement
"Remember that all distances are measured from the war machine model itself."

So the war machine and crew are distinct models. These models collectively are one unit.

in Warhammer - Dark Elves, pages 39 and 94 both agree that the crew have murderous prowess, while the war machine has "repeater bolt thrower". As a model does not have a special rule "unless stated otherwise", the bolt thrower model does not have murderous prowess.

The Cauldron of Blood: Strength of Khaine special rule on page 47 of warhammer - Dark Elves applies to "Friendly Models with the Murderous Prowess special rule..."

While "A war machine unit comprises the machine itself, plus its crew" (BRB: page 108, The Crew), the bolt thrower Model (brb pg 109) does not have the murderous prowess special rule (DE pg 39,94) and gains no benefit from the CoB (BE pg 47).

This resolves the issue to my satisfaction. If anyone has a RAW sourced quote which throws a wrench into this interpretation I'd love to hear it. While I appreciate the fine art of debate as much as the next Dakkaite, I shall not further respond to this thread in the absence of such a quote. Thanks to all for your thoughts!

You are ignoring half of the crew entry. All of that is irrelevent, as the war machine is the extent of the model. As per the rules.

Again, the model is the bolt thrower itself. The rule affects the model as a whole. It's not like hatred, which specifically affects the elf only. It's for the entire model.

Apart from the explicit rule stating the crew are models, you would be correct.

As you keep ignoring that rule, your argument is a little weak.

So when the rule also states that for gaming purposes, the war machine is the extent of the unit, which, due to the way that rules work, kind of means that for gaming purposes, the crew don't count, you're saying that that isn't part of the rule?

**BorderCountess**

nosferatu1001 wrote:
thedarkavenger wrote:
kooshlord wrote:
From BRB: page 66: What Special Rules Does It Have?
"It may seem obvious, but unless stated otherwise, a model does not have a special rule."

BRB: page 108: The Crew
"When the war machine suffers a wound, remove a crew model."

BRB: page 109: Movement
"Remember that all distances are measured from the war machine model itself."

So the war machine and crew are distinct models. These models collectively are one unit.

in Warhammer - Dark Elves, pages 39 and 94 both agree that the crew have murderous prowess, while the war machine has "repeater bolt thrower". As a model does not have a special rule "unless stated otherwise", the bolt thrower model does not have murderous prowess.

The Cauldron of Blood: Strength of Khaine special rule on page 47 of warhammer - Dark Elves applies to "Friendly Models with the Murderous Prowess special rule..."

While "A war machine unit comprises the machine itself, plus its crew" (BRB: page 108, The Crew), the bolt thrower Model (brb pg 109) does not have the murderous prowess special rule (DE pg 39,94) and gains no benefit from the CoB (BE pg 47).

This resolves the issue to my satisfaction. If anyone has a RAW sourced quote which throws a wrench into this interpretation I'd love to hear it. While I appreciate the fine art of debate as much as the next Dakkaite, I shall not further respond to this thread in the absence of such a quote. Thanks to all for your thoughts!

You are ignoring half of the crew entry. All of that is irrelevent, as the war machine is the extent of the model. As per the rules.

Again, the model is the bolt thrower itself. The rule affects the model as a whole. It's not like hatred, which specifically affects the elf only. It's for the entire model.

Apart from the explicit rule stating the crew are models, you would be correct.

As you keep ignoring that rule, your argument is a little weak.

Frankly, I don't know why any of us expect anything else. I think I've said my piece on this matter and will also bow out from here.

**nosferatu1001**

Indeed. For some reason I responded, not sure why.

Lesson learnt.

**Ehsteve**

Cauldron does not allow the bolt thrower to gain rerolls.

Crew rules do not affect the warmachine with the exception of those which would function in close combat. Special rules do not carry across to other models in the unit unless specifically noted in the unit entry "it may seem obvious, but unless stated otherwise, a model does have a special rules" (p66, BRB) and Murderous Prowess does not carry onto the entire unit as per it's specific wording.

Warmachine crew are 'models' and part of the warmachine unit, as such can gain the benefit, however the issue is determining where their models lie (as the convention is that they remain within 1" of the warmachine but this is flexible).

The crew are not making a ranged attack, the warmachine is, there are no rules stating otherwise. The game relies on abstractions, and this is one of the results. Though you may resolve using the crew's BS, they are not firing, the same as a Dwarf Cannon using a Master Engineer's BS or Grimm Burlokssons' buff does not mean that the engineers are firing the cannon.

It's like arguing that DE mounts gain the rerolls even though they do not have the special rule because they are part of the same model: special rules do not carry over unless there is a specific rule stating otherwise.

Dwarf Warmachines gain Stubborn because that special rule affects the unit.

**thedarkavenger**

Ehsteve wrote:
Cauldron does not allow the bolt thrower to gain rerolls.

Crew rules do not affect the warmachine with the exception of those which would function in close combat. Special rules do not carry across to other models in the unit unless specifically noted in the unit entry "it may seem obvious, but unless stated otherwise, a model does have a special rules" (p66, BRB) and Murderous Prowess does not carry onto the entire unit as per it's specific wording.

Warmachine crew are 'models' and part of the warmachine unit, as such can gain the benefit, however the issue is determining where their models lie (as the convention is that they remain within 1" of the warmachine but this is flexible).

The crew are not making a ranged attack, the warmachine is, there are no rules stating otherwise. The game relies on abstractions, and this is one of the results. Though you may resolve using the crew's BS, they are not firing, the same as a Dwarf Cannon using a Master Engineer's BS or Grimm Burlokssons' buff does not mean that the engineers are firing the cannon.

It's like arguing that DE mounts gain the rerolls even though they do not have the special rule because they are part of the same model: special rules do not carry over unless there is a specific rule stating otherwise.

Dwarf Warmachines gain Stubborn because that special rule affects the unit.

The crew don't count for gameplay purposes. This is in the WM rules. The War machine itself is the unit. The crew are not. RAW the model gets it. RAW the war machine is the model.

As for the mounts getting it, this is because it specifies that the rules state "(Crew Only)". A prime example of this is Wild Riders. They and their mounts have frenzy.