ionusx wrote:
kingbobbito wrote:Are you talking about a standard dreadnought, or a contemptor dreadnought? I assumed standard, hence the low points cost.
I'd definitely say chaplain is kind of overpriced for what you get, I generally prefer a librarian for buffs or extra killing power, depending on the enemy.
The terminators have the potential to be decent, if you're only using them as a semi-durable moving gun platform. Again, expensive in 1000 points. I personally prefer knights if I'm using termies in smaller games, as they're infinitely more like to survive plasma. Using the bikes you can drop the knights turn 1 18" out from your deploy zone, charge turn 2. But again, expensive for 1000 points.
About those bikes, I'm personally okay with 3 man bike squads depending however on what you plan to use them for. If you're using them to snag tactical objectives or a beacon for a deepstrike, they're quite effective. Jink is what puts them above assault marines. That small of a squad, however, will get pummeled in
CC and doesn't have much firepower.
even with a jink save they can get flattened pretty damn quickly with the right weapon, even bloody sniper scouts can cause a morale check and really they only need to get lucky once to cut their combat effectiveness by 1/3. if they get lucky twice well your bikers are quickly going to be rendered totally useless as 2/3 of their unit is gone and your final biker is going to need to make snake eyes or run
3d6 potentially all the way back to your deployment zone effectively making his contribution to this match over and done with.
three bikers are terrible terrible terrible they go down to quickly to even the smallest amount of gunfire and trying to keep a special weapon alive in that squad is impossible. its totally impossible, bikers are much like dwt's in that respect they need a concentrated points investment to field even a handful and if you dont then your wasting your time dont bother. and your right bikers are more dureable than assault marine but in this
BRB unless your an eldar super deathstar with fortune, pheonix gem, jetbike,
fnp maddness it means very very little. better saves are 100% without a doubt inferior to more wounds.
finally we can discuss dwk's deepstriking.. your basically asking for them to get shot to pieces; terminators (until they do something to address their survivability) should never EVER deepstrike unless your intent is for them to die a quick death at which point i need to ask why you didnt use veterans or a command squad, their cheaper and will probably do what you want the first time. disembark from a land raider or dont bring them at all, they will accomplish a lot more that turn i assure you.
I can't agree with the bike squads being squished too easily as a whole. You are going to lose some, but you can have so many. Multiple small biker squads are very annoying and potentially scoring if you take sammy. A thunderhammer
ss termi squad with a missile launcher is great, if they focus fire on it to kill them down just think to yourself "well how are they going to bring down these bikes now that their gunline spent a turn killing termies. The big thing with dark angels (as with most armies played effectively) is you don't have to kill your opponent. You just need to score your objective. Both of these units are great at that.
If you want to run tri-wing. Consider scouts over
tac marines. Those 10th company boys in cover are nasty. Infiltrating troops are very effective. Still consider a librarian on a bike, or something to allow you access to a command squad of bikes as they are cheaper. I have been considering to run tri-wing myself abusing the new formation of Ezzy and 2+ other librarians. The command squad requirements for
DA only specify that you need an
HQ on a bike or in termi armor. The boosts it gives you to psyker powers and access to cheaper plasma talons is great.
For my advice on how to effectively run
DA. Heavy Ravenwing with mild Deathwing support. Run sammy, and a ravenwing command group. Plasma talons are deadly, and will make armor,
TEQ, and basic troops think twice about what to do with you. The best part is they are cheaper than their fast attack equivalent.
The Devastation banner may look appealing, but I personally will avoid it as it encourages you to run a tightknit force. I have found it best to max out my Ravenwing squads and combat squad them and spread them out (note that your combat squads are different than regular marines (abuse it)). Just remember you at a T5 marine with a 3+ and a 4+ cover save (your life is pretty good). 1 multi-melta attack bike that is scoring rolling around on its own if a frustrating target for a demolisher cannon to shoot at. Is he going to kill it? Likely, but then that was his shooting phase and he only scored one model.
Darkshrouds are overlooked. The buff they provide your fighting force (2+ jink for blackknights and sammy, and a 3+ jink for everyone else, heck potentially a cover save for your termies) and the target priority they create for 80pts is amazing. Remember they themselves have a 2+ jink . . always jink it. Even if the enemy ignores cover in some way, it means that they shot at your 80pt vehicle and not your scoring units. The heavy bolter is a nice bonus - don't forget to snap fire.
Remember that your ravenwing - all your bikes have the Scout special rule, and so can re-position to the enemies deployment or outflank. This allows you to show up on your own terms, and hide line of sight. 3 man squads of bikes are very easy to hide, use it to your advantage; if you feel you need the board presence on the first turn. Don't forget that your bikes have teleporter homers, which will help that termi squad come in with a twin-linked missile launcher (I'll talk about these in a bit).
Don't forget that you can take a speeder from your bike squads and they break off. Give them missile launchers to bring them to 75 points each, they will provide you with some moderate
AT. Finally they are speedy little *Objective Secured* units with a 4+ cover save, if not 3+ when by a dark shroud.
Now they ever over-estimated, yet underrated termies. They are the question mark of your army. Personally, I would avoid Deathwing assault. They don't want to show turn 1 for fear of getting blasted, and being slotted to show on turn two allows your opponent to be prepared. It also lets you hide your warlord, if deep striking. As I take a cheap termi librarian. Roll on telepathy just to see if you get invisibility. Giving a squad all storm shields and thunderhammers makes them problem for the people that think
AP 2 will make them disappear. Given that it is your warlord unit I always roll on the stratigic warlord table (hoping for re-roll on reserves for those outflankers, or infiltrate warlord + 3 non-vehicles). The missile launcher will allow them to be relevant if they need to camp on a objective (which is usually their best role).
After writing this, I think I may make my own entry on running
DA all comers list (even against pesky Imperial Knights). Let me know if you are interested, and I will
PM you when I am done. Regardless, this is a list I played at a tournament modeled after highlander, and it is a list I play regularly now. I know it is a bit over your point limit, but it is something to consider.
1850
HQ: Sammael - Jetbike
HQ: Termi Librarian - Force Stave,
ML 2, auspex (helps against daemon princes)
Non-force: Ravenwing Command - 5 models, apothecary
Non-force: Deathwing Command - apothecary,
TH SS, Missile Launcher
Troop: Ravewing Squad - 6 models, two melta, Multi-melta attack bike, Missile Launcher Speeder
Troop: Ravewing Squad - 6 models, two melta, Multi-melta attack bike, Missile Launcher Speeder
Fast: Darkshroud
Fast: Black Knights - 5 models
Fast: Missile Launcher Speeder (This was to get an extra speeder in the format - really just excess points spent)
4000~
1000~