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Battle Wizard Lord: Talisman of Preservation; Ring of Volans; Level 4 Wizard; Lore of Heavens; Imperial Pegasus 320
General of the Empire: full plate armour; Warhorse (barding) 120

Captain of the Empire: Charmed Shield; Talisman of Endurance; heavy armour; Battle Standard; Imperial Pegasus (Iron-hard Hooves; Swift as the Wind) 182
Battle Wizard: Dispel Scroll; Level 2 Wizard; Lore of Heavens 125
Master Engineer 65
Master Engineer 65

20 Handgunners: Marksman (repeater handgun); musician; standard bearer 220
• 10 Handgunners 90
• 10 Handgunners 90
20 Crossbowmen: Marksman; musician; standard bearer 210
• 10 Crossbowmen 90
• 10 Crossbowmen 90

Great Cannon 120
Great Cannon 120

Helblaster Volley Gun 120
Helblaster Volley Gun 120
Steam Tank 250

2,397 points

What do you do when Nagash starts summoning a load of ethereal troops right next to your vulnerable and equipped with non magical weapons gunline?

Vetril wrote:
What do you do when Nagash starts summoning a load of ethereal troops right next to your vulnerable and equipped with non magical weapons gunline?

Implying he'll be alive post 2 cannons and helblasters.

If he is, or gets any, I get ET Heavens.

He just needs a single building to hide behind.

Vetril wrote:
He just needs a single building to hide behind.

With 2 helblasters and 2 cannons, I can create a zone where he can't hide.

One cannon in each corner. One helblaster about a third from each edge.

In a perfect world where nothing blocks your line of sight, sure, and then you win easily.
Other times, you will end up with a tower on a flank, Nagash will hide behind it, blow up a cannon, and then start summoning ethereals from a safe range, hidden from the other cannon.
Now, your army has exactly 2 models that can wound ethereals, which look like a perfect counter to your counter, as they won't be shot down.
If the Nagash player feels like trolling you, he could also summon nothing but zombies - see if you can take down 200 per turn before they engage you.
So you lose because you have shooty units that can't generate enough combat resolution to take down the enemy units.
The real question is, do you feel like planning a list on the assumption that you will get a chance to shoot with all your artillery (including the short ranged one) at a single specific model? It's a one trick pony which has no real answer if something doesn't go as planned.

Vetril wrote:
In a perfect world where nothing blocks your line of sight, sure, and then you win easily.
Other times, you will end up with a tower on a flank, Nagash will hide behind it, blow up a cannon, and then start summoning ethereals from a safe range, hidden from the other cannon.
Now, your army has exactly 2 models that can wound ethereals, which look like a perfect counter to your counter, as they won't be shot down.
If the Nagash player feels like trolling you, he could also summon nothing but zombies - see if you can take down 200 per turn before they engage you.
So you lose because you have shooty units that can't generate enough combat resolution to take down the enemy units.
The real question is, do you feel like planning a list on the assumption that you will get a chance to shoot with all your artillery (including the short ranged one) at a single specific model? It's a one trick pony which has no real answer if something doesn't go as planned.

On a normal board, with normal terrain, TLOS means that I'll be able to see Nagash.

Yes, but with what pieces? If I played Nagash, I'd expose him to one cannon only, which I'd probably take out on turn 1 with death magic. Once I have that covered, I can start summoning from a safe distance, since I outrange you. You won't be able to move closer to get a shot either, because there will be a wall of summoned units in between.
Furthermore, what if Nagash gets the first turn and proceeds to melt the 2 cannons with magic? What's your answer once he has taken your long range fire?
In my opinion, if you want to hunt down Nagash, you need something that can chase him. You can't trust the opponent to just expose his best piece so that you can shoot him down with the combined might of imperial science.
I'd offer more specific advice, but I'm not that familiar with the empire's army book options.

Vetril wrote:
Yes, but with what pieces? If I played Nagash, I'd expose him to one cannon only, which I'd probably take out on turn 1 with death magic. Once I have that covered, I can start summoning from a safe distance, since I outrange you. You won't be able to move closer to get a shot either, because there will be a wall of summoned units in between.
In my opinion, if you want to hunt down Nagash, you need something that can chase him. You can't trust the opponent to just expose his best piece so that you can shoot him down with the combined might of imperial science.
I'd offer more specific advice, but I'm not that familiar with the empire's army book options.

With that base size, you'd have trouble unless you use obnoxious fish bowl terrain.

As for the range thing. I have two range 60" cannons on each side of the board.

Forget the helblasters. They'll get swarmed with ethereal chaff and their range is limited anyway. Plus the engineers make them too expensive.

If you want a Nagash counter, take an arch lector on the war altar, a level 4 light and 2 level 1 light wizards. The goal is to get a strength 7 and a strength 6 banishment. Between that and the two cannons you can roast Nagash in a turn or two then move on to other targets.

 Warptide wrote:
Forget the helblasters. They'll get swarmed with ethereal chaff and their range is limited anyway. Plus the engineers make them too expensive.

If you want a Nagash counter, take an arch lector on the war altar, a level 4 light and 2 level 1 light wizards. The goal is to get a strength 7 and a strength 6 banishment. Between that and the two cannons you can roast Nagash in a turn or two then move on to other targets.

That's the normal list. It has a glaring issue, in that Nagash can snipe the altar out if he gets turn 1. At which point, I'm reliant on a level 4 outcasting Nagash.

Level 4 vs. Level 5 still isn't that bad.

 Pelas Mir'san wrote:
Level 4 vs. Level 5 still isn't that bad.

Still not reliable.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 Pelas Mir'san wrote:
Level 4 vs. Level 5 still isn't that bad.

Still not reliable.

Then take Book of Ashur?

The problem with this list is that Nagash will be sitting behind a wall of crypt horrors. If he gets a wall or building then things are even tougher.

I agree with the others that a light council is a better way to go. With Chaos Legions on the scene as well that banishment council is looking even better. You can use your banishments to draw out Nagash' dice, so that you can slip other spells through and start dismantling his support structure. Shem's to melt away some of his CH wall, or to toast his hierotitan or casket. Cannons to, again, knock out his hierotitan and casket. That will massively undermine his raising potential.

Once those threats are taken out you can start putting pressure on the big guy, slipping wounds and force him to use dice to heal himself instead of raise new units (which he NEEDS to win...the rest of his army is support and isn't going to earn points on its own).

As for killing the big man, the Empire has one amazing ace up its sleeve: Van Horstmann's Speculum. He can't refuse the challenge if he's on his own, and he's not going to like taking all those S7 attacks once he drops down to T3. Tack some SCR ontop of that and things are looking even better.

Also great is the Rune Fang. Autowounds get past his high T, and he's only got that 4++ left afterwards. If it's Ghal Maraz, even if wielded by boring old armybook Karl Franz, then all the better. Put a BSB with OTS in next to him and you're golden.

or just take Karl Franz ascendent

fly him up next to nag ash then charge next turn and beat him in the face with Ghal Maraz

did it yesterday Nagash player rage quit

BlackConsulBrother wrote:
or just take Karl Franz ascendent

fly him up next to nag ash then charge next turn and beat him in the face with Ghal Maraz

did it yesterday Nagash player rage quit

A good Nagash player can just fill the space between KFA and Nagash with bodies that he'll take forever to chew through, then raise up terrorgheists to scream you off while you wade through broken skeletons. He's a powerful tool but not something that can't be stopped. Flyers are tough to deal with, but a savvy player will just give them nowhere good to land.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:

BlackConsulBrother wrote:
or just take Karl Franz ascendent

fly him up next to nag ash then charge next turn and beat him in the face with Ghal Maraz

did it yesterday Nagash player rage quit

A good Nagash player can just fill the space between KFA and Nagash with bodies that he'll take forever to chew through, then raise up terrorgheists to scream you off while you wade through broken skeletons. He's a powerful tool but not something that can't be stopped. Flyers are tough to deal with, but a savvy player will just give them nowhere good to land.

Not when you face someone who knows how to get Helblasters in range on turn 1.


Also, I'm never resorting to KFA. Ever. I'd never touch a model that Ben Diesel bandwagons like that.

no you just fly up to within one inch of nag ash even if he moves away KF can probably crush any unit nag ash might fit there then he just overruns into nag ash

but i do agree you need combat power Empire are no longer a gun line army when mostly hitting on 5's 4's if your lucky

Im sorry, but Im calling bull on the ability of this list to turn one down nagash, even on a flat, open board.

Lets say you know how to get your hellblasters into range turn 1 (both of them mind you) and that your opponent somehow doesnt know how to stay out of range on turn 1 (considering Nagash will be put down after the warmachines, most likely)...

Lets also give the benefit here of no cannons misfiring, and the engineer preventing the one statistical misfire from the two blasters...

2 cannons, one is saved off the bat, and 3.5 wounds from the second ball.
2 hellblasters (average of 14-16 shots each, call it 30 total) at bs4, with long range, hard cover (from the unit that WILL be between you, unless all your opponents are morons) equals 5 hits - (needing 6s). Lets be generous and say that two wound. And another one saved from the ward.

Thats well above average rolling, and congrats, you have just not killed Nagash, and he is ready to heal himself up and slag your arty.

Do you have any non-anecdotal evidence to back this list up,, because I have tales of how it doesnt... (and Ive tried it out as a possibility too)

If you want to kill him first turn, you need to take 3 great cannons, 2 steam tanks and a light council! Those things will easily put nagash on his bum turn one.

The list is written as a hard counter to Nagash. Everything shoots, and the points are all mobile/spread across the board.

The Helblasters deploy sideways, and on turn 1, they turn to face their target, which then puts the edge of the barrels, where you measure from, an inch over the 24" line.

The cannons are on either side of the board, spread out. That way, Nagash has to commit to actually killing one.

I've got the heavens magic to keep the undead in check. Comets to force them into positions. The two magic missiles to slam Nagash.

I'm not just relying on war machines.

I Just think you're being way to optimistic, there is very little mobility to your army as everything has to either stand still to shoot or move and not shoot. A mere thunder bolt won't scrap nagash, and the undead player won't be putting nagash to the 12inch line so he can be shot first turn by your helblasters, so in this situation you either have to rely on warmachines and light magic, or call upon good old uncle franzy!

Luke1234567890 wrote:
I Just think you're being way to optimistic, there is very little mobility to your army as everything has to either stand still to shoot or move and not shoot. A mere thunder bolt won't scrap nagash, and the undead player won't be putting nagash to the 12inch line so he can be shot first turn by your helblasters, so in this situation you either have to rely on warmachines and light magic, or call upon good old uncle franzy!

So you're playing I have to take two things which require zero skill.

Yeah, No. Not happening.

Two S6 magic missiles are there to take about 2 wounds off Nagash.

The cannons then put him down enough so that, his magic doesn't put him on full wounds. (We don't play ET magic here as Tournaments disallow it.) That means he either has to commit to coming into my range and risking death, or the helblasters just sit there gunning off his troops as I keep repeating the cycle.

Well fair enough, everyone to there own! Good luck sir!