Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Considering an anti-air role predominantly and also for their other weapons to hunt tanks/mc's, what do you guys prefer to use?

Stormfang - but has lance version of the helfrost cannon (but hull mounted) (think of it like the old JAWS cept things need to suffer a wound first) with 2 stormstrike missles, and usually skyhammer missles

*pros - has lance profile to help with AV14. Can dump all the missles first turn so less valuable subsequent turns means less costly if shot down, not assault vehicle
*cons - lance is hull mounted, most expensive flyer if taking lascannon and multi-melta upgrades, but would be able to fire 3 weapons each turn (based on positioning)

Stormwolf - with turret twinlinked helfrost cannon but no missles and a single hull mounted twin linked lascannon istead, also with skyhammer missles

*pros - flexible helfrost cannon, can fire 3 anti-vehicle weapons each turn without spending points on any upgrades. 235 points gets you a flyer that can fire 4 guns a turn pretty much every turn
*cons -Needs to pay for upgrade to tackle AV14 more effectively. A bit more expensive than the base cost of a storm raven


Storm raven - 4 stormstrike missles, turret mounted single twin linked lascannon/plasma cannon/assault cannon, twin linked multi-melta

*pros - more missles to unload as you can fire 4 things at once and can still PotMS something. cheaper than the stormwolves/fang. can carry more things and can all jump out even with flyer moving. Without spending points on upgrades, can still take some nice and powerful weapons to tackle a variety of targets
*cons - once missles are gone, it's got less fire power. rarely actually used to carry alot of things


Storm talon - for twin linked assualt cannon and a twin linked lascannon or skyhammer/typhoon missle launcher

*pros - more target saturation, turret assault cannon can allow for some nice strafing positioning. decent upgrade options
*cons - lower hull points and armor 11. Cheaper for 1 but 2 of them costs more than one of the above, no POTMS

Fire Raptor Gunship - twin linked str 6, ap 3, 7 shots bolt cannon, as well as 4 stormstike missles, and 2 independent firing quad heavy bolters - twin linked heavy 6 HB's

*pros - really heavily armed with tons of guns. Guns can fire independently and can fire 3 things each turn at different things along with some or all of its missiles, same price as the stormfang but extra hull point. Avenger bolt cannon is as good as the hive tyrants and their devourer electrogrubs
*cons - IA book so not everyone knows about it or want to play with it, expensive model (real dollars), hull mounted avenger cannon limits firing arks, no transport capacity. Can only take one before you have to pay the master of the forge tax. No armored ceremite. Can't threaten AV13-14 with base guns


Nephilim jetfighter not included because I don't really like the thing. If someone can convince me otherwise, I'd love to hear its virtues.
Avenger/valk/vendetta/thunderhawk/storm eagle/stormeagle roc/caestus assault ram/land speeder tempest also not included as I just don't know those things too well to talk about them

Lol, I like the Caestus Assault ram.

I have trouble respecting the Storm Talon after bring one down with concentrated Heavy Bolter fire. It not only doesn't require dedicated anti air, it doesn't require dedicated anti-tank.

the storm talon's use is two fold. first of all as a budget flier. second of all as an escort flier. the escort rules allow you to attach it to a storm raven and have two fliers come on the board at once. it's not a great flier but when viewed in the context of a light escort for the larger more important stormraven it at least makes some sense

Never used it but I've always wanted a StormEagle Roc pattern, crazy amount of firepower on that thing!
My IA:2 is at home and im at the mothers for the holidays so I may be the slightest bit off here:
8 st8 ap3 (maybe tl), 2 tl st9 ap2, and either 1 tl mm shot (base) or a further 2 st8 ap3 shots (25pt increase).
That's greater firepower than THREE devestator squads.
Av12 all round 4hp.
295pts.
Give it tankhunter and ceremite for 25pts or monsterhunter for 35pts. You've basically just increased your damage by 50% against av12 67% against av13 and 83% against av14 if taking the former.

I voted for the one I own, lol!

Unless I'm doing it wrong, the Stormtalon shines because of the hover rule, which allows the talon to act like a fast? skimmer. Sure you lose the protection of zooming, but for 125 points who really cares if it gets shot down next turn? As long as those Skyhammers and assault cannons keep blazing away at bs5 I really don't care. Your infantry is dead.

Not much love for the stormwolf. The stormfang belongs at the bottom. The big gun should have been twin linked for what it is, as is it is not worth it.

The stormwolf has been a great addition to my army in every game I have played. POMS letting you fire off one of those side meltas at whatever off to the side, and unleashing everything else straight forward. Or firing the hellfrost behind you, blast or not, is pretty awesome. It is also wonderful at killing artillery thanks to the helfrost rule.

I love the stormraven. Tons of firepower and a somewhat useful transport capacity on an av12 ceramite plated behemoth. I do use it to transport DC dreads, though.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Never used it but I've always wanted a StormEagle Roc pattern, crazy amount of firepower on that thing!
My IA:2 is at home and im at the mothers for the holidays so I may be the slightest bit off here:
8 st8 ap3 (maybe tl), 2 tl st9 ap2, and either 1 tl mm shot (base) or a further 2 st8 ap3 shots (25pt increase).
That's greater firepower than THREE devestator squads.
Av12 all round 4hp.
295pts.
Give it tankhunter and ceremite for 25pts or monsterhunter for 35pts. You've basically just increased your damage by 50% against av12 67% against av13 and 83% against av14 if taking the former.

It has a hull mounted twin linked vengeance launcher with roc warheads which are 48' str 8 AP3 heavy 4 (twin linked)
two wing mounted twin linked lascannons
one hull mounted twin linked heavy bolter that can upgrade to twinlinked multi-melta or single typhoon missle launcher for 25 pints.
(allowing you to fire the max all 4 weapons every turn)

It also has PotMS, armored ceramite, and strafing run. It says deep strike but I don't think that applies anymore.

How are you giving it tankhunter or monster hunter? I don't see that in the rules but great memory on what it has.

Also, forgot to add, if you take the fire raptor gunship, it makes you take a master of the forge to take a sciarian tank in the same list though it's not really part of this discussion.

Tank hunter by giving it schism of mars for 25pts. One of the legacies from IA2. Cheers for clearing that up by the way. Couldn't remember if it was 4 or 8 shots.

Ahh, great point, I totally forgot about appendix II.

For those that don't know, IA2 has a back section that lets you buy specific upgrades for one vehicle per 1000 points. Think of them as a relic for vehicles.

Some of them are pretty powerful and some are more flavorful. These include:

ignore cover for any blast makers by this vehicle
preferred enemy orks, hatred orks, and if charged, attacking units reroll successful to hits
Monster hunter, also gives marines within 6' fearless
Once per game, gain skyfire, interceptor, tank hunters and night vision ( does it mean it can give itself interceptor on the enemy's turn?)
perferred enemy chaos space marine, and auto pass ruins dangerous terrain tests
Adamantium will
No scatter via deep strike
perferred enemy chaos space marine, and enemy warlords within 12' suffer -1 to ld
Perferred enemy (chaos Daemons), marines within 6' gain furious charge
Jink saves improved by 1 for storm eagle/varients. superheavy flyer gains 6+ jink
Marines gain fearless within 12'
Tank Hunters, ignore haywire on a 4+, and gains +1bs against things with daemonforge (i,e, heldrake)
It Will Not Die
+1 BS or +1 WS, if warlord is within 2'-the range of command trait is +6'. If destroyed, the vehicle = +1 victory point to the enemy
gain venerable rule but counts as ally of convenience to own detatchment or desperate ally to any allied detatchment
Reroll mysterious terrain/objective if desired if this vehicle discovers them


I'm kind of confused now after going over to forgeworld again. The fire raptor has experimental rules now that differ from the origional IA2 book. Do these overwrite the old rules in the book? The twin linked autocannons seem like a side grade, I'm not sure I'd give up the quad heavy bolters for them. 2 shots at str 7, AP4 vs 6 shots of str 5 ap 4?, 4 shots vs 12... ya.. the +2 str doesn't seem quite worth it though you can threaten more transports I guess.

The Stormeagle does not have any extra rules so not sure how to play it anymore lol.

Wow, that Tank Hunters/ignoring haywire half the time is bonkers. How much is that? Give a Spartan that and Ceramite, and you have a vehicle that refuses to be destroyed.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Wow, that Tank Hunters/ignoring haywire half the time is bonkers. How much is that? Give a Spartan that and Ceramite, and you have a vehicle that refuses to be destroyed.

25, and 50 for a super heavy vehicle

Its Sicarans that really want it. 6 tl st7 rending, ignore jink shots and two lascannon shots, that bad boy really benefits from it!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Making those tank hunting that is.

ya, which is why I keep mentioning it with the fire raptor.

The raptor can be taken with the sciarian but you end up with a master of the forge tax. The raptor also has no ability to dent AV 13-14 and is hardpressed to hurt AV 12. It's good at denting AV11 flyers which there are many of course. Probably why everyone's voting for it?

I'm thinking maybe take a sicaran with tank hunter/haywire resist for all those deep striking haywire swooping hawks to handle the light AV 11-12 farily easily and have a chance to threaten AV 13/14 with the lascannons. Would cost you 220 points of something that can swat down wave serpents/rhinos, and even threaten alot of aircraft.

To prevent too much double coverage, maybe go with storm raven/stormwolf for tougher AV busting on top of the sicaran. Or storm talon with lascannons due to points. Now that I think about it, combining the sicaran + fire raptor is going to be overkill for the same target types.

A Roc pattern storm eagle with the tank hunters is going to be beastly anti-higher AV though now you are looking at 335 points.

Sicaran with its rending is a serious threat against even av14 with tank hunter. Due to 6 shots and tl you are looking at the main gun itself just get 2hp against av13 and 14 on average. Far better than most AT. When you have the lascannons too then you are gravy.
The Sicaran with schism is a true heavy tank killer (not to be confused with super heavy :-p.)

Poly Ranger wrote:
Tank hunter by giving it schism of mars for 25pts. One of the legacies from IA2. Cheers for clearing that up by the way. Couldn't remember if it was 4 or 8 shots.

This is not legal. Schism of Mars can only be taken by tanks, and the various storm-whatever flyers are not tanks.

Also, while the Roc-pattern Storm Eagle is a great unit, you should pay attention to which armies can take it: a C:SM army or siege army representing the Minotaurs chapter. Are you sure you want to commit to a fairly weak chapter tactics (morale bonus and +1" charge range in the opponent's deployment zone) as the price of getting your flyer?

But you don't have to play as Minotaurs though. Can just play as codex SM with the same chapter tactics that we already have right?

Sure you can't play it in SW , GK, DA, or BA list but can always ally in SM counterpart I'm thinking.

Good catch on the schism of mars though, I totally didn't catch that. Wierdly enough, you can take it on a caestus assault ram though lol.

 sudojoe wrote:
But you don't have to play as Minotaurs though. Can just play as codex SM with the same chapter tactics that we already have right?

If "representing the Minotaurs chapter" does not mean "C:SM with chapter tactics: Minotaurs" then what exactly does it mean, and why was it included in the rule for what armies can take the unit?

If "representing the Minotaurs chapter" does not mean "C:SM with chapter tactics: Minotaurs" then what exactly does it mean, and why was it included in the rule for what armies can take the unit?

The exact wording from IA - war machines Astartes:

"A Storm Eagle Rock Pattern Assault Gunship is a Heavy Support choice for a Codex: Space Marines army, and a Space Marine Siege Assault Vanguard army as described in Imperial Armour Ten The Badab War - Part Two, Representing the Minotaurs Chapter"

The comma and the word "and" after Codex: Space Marines army suggests to me that it can be used in a regular space marine army. You can also use it in the siege assault army profile from IA10. This limits it to just those 2 factions. This wording means that you can't use it if you were running the Tyant's legion army for example from the badab war.

See the page after on the fire raptor's profile -

"A Fire Raptor Gunship is a Heavy Support choice for a codex: Space Marines, Codex: Space Wolves, or Codex: Dark Angels army. It may also be used in a Tyrant's Legion army where it may be selected as an Astral Claws Chapter Support choice as detailed in Imperial Armour Nine: The Badab War - Part one, and a space marine siege Assault Vanguard army as described in Imperial Armour Ten: The badab war - Part Two."

The Space Marine Seige Assault Vanguard has it's own force Org and I'm assuming that it's essentially considered like a totally different faction much like SW and BA are different than regular space marines. On page 184 of IA10, it has a note:

"Note that there are a number of options featured in Codex Space Marines that are not available to the Siege Assault Vanguard force (Drop Pods, Bikes, Scouts, etc.) This is intentional rather than an omission and reflects the singular nature of the force's use and deployment."

 sudojoe wrote:
The comma and the word "and" after Codex: Space Marines army suggests to me that it can be used in a regular space marine army.

Of course it can. You can use it in your C:SM army, as long as you take CT:Minotaurs.

See the page after on the fire raptor's profile -

"A Fire Raptor Gunship is a Heavy Support choice for a codex: Space Marines, Codex: Space Wolves, or Codex: Dark Angels army. It may also be used in a Tyrant's Legion army where it may be selected as an Astral Claws Chapter Support choice as detailed in Imperial Armour Nine: The Badab War - Part one, and a space marine siege Assault Vanguard army as described in Imperial Armour Ten: The badab war - Part Two."

Exactly, see the Fire Raptor's rules, specifically the part where no "representing X chapter" requirement is given. A Fire Raptor can be taken in any C:SM army, regardless of which CT you pick. A Roc-pattern Storm Eagle has an additional requirement and can only be taken if you take CT:Minotaurs.

I still politely disagree on the interpretation of that requirement as the dash separates the rest of the sentence from the prior parts and I read that as if you take the siege army, it'll represent the Minotaurs chapter.

The actual picture on forgeworld for the model shows clearly a salamander storm eagle.

On the book page with the Storm Eagle Roc, it's also actually depicting a Raven Guard emblem on the side.

From A fluff perspective, page 135 states under the Roc -

"Used primarily by the Minotaurs and the Red Templars Chapters"

The Red Templars are a codex chapter and was formally a successor chapter under the imperial fists. (see page 151 of the codex space marines. Showing a red templar bike sergent)

 sudojoe wrote:
I still politely disagree on the interpretation of that requirement as the dash separates the rest of the sentence from the prior parts and I read that as if you take the siege army, it'll represent the Minotaurs chapter.

There's no separating dash. The only dash is the one that is part of the title of IA10: "Imperial Armour Ten The Badab War - Part Two". Plus, your argument here doesn't even make sense when the Minotaurs chapter has its own chapter tactics for the standard C:SM army list and there is no need to pretend that a variant list represents them.

The actual picture on forgeworld for the model shows clearly a salamander storm eagle.

That's because there is no Roc-pattern Storm Eagle on the FW website, it's the same model as the normal Storm Eagle. And the normal Storm Eagle can be taken in a C:SM army with CT:Salamanders.

On the book page with the Storm Eagle Roc, it's also actually depicting a Raven Guard emblem on the side.

So? Background pictures don't mean anything, especially since this background picture is part of a two-page scene that extends onto the Fire Raptor's rules. And the half on the Fire Raptor's page shows a second Raven Guard Storm Eagle.

From A fluff perspective, page 135 states under the Roc -

"Used primarily by the Minotaurs and the Red Templars Chapters"

So? Fluff =/= rules.

There's no separating dash. The only dash is the one that is part of the title of IA10: "Imperial Armour Ten The Badab War - Part Two". Plus, your argument here doesn't even make sense when the Minotaurs chapter has its own chapter tactics for the standard C:SM army list and there is no need to pretend that a variant list represents them.

Actually I'm not pretending that a variant list exists here, it's spelled out in IA:10 on page 182-184
but that's not what we're arguing here.

What we're really arguing is really:

"Is the comma and the word 'and' representing a clause/phrase/adjective ?"

Breaking down the sentence as quoted above I am reading it as-

Roc is a "heavy support choice" for A, and B.

A in this case is "Codex: Space Marines army"
B in this case is "Space Marine Siege Assault Vanguard army as described in IA 10: The Badab War - Part Two, Representing the Minotaurs Chapter"

I'm interpreting the phrase "Representing the Minotaurs Chapter" as an adjectival phrase referencing the immediate noun before it: "Space marine Siege assault army"


You appear to be reading the sentence as (please correct me as needed)

Roc is a "heavy support choice" for A, and B, representing the Minotaur chapter.

where the sentence is using the words "for A, and B" as a parenthetical phrase to be encompassed by the "minotaur chapter" tacked on as a dependent clause. To do this, however, you are missing a comma before the word "for" so I cannot agree with you on this one.

Also, there were several chapters represented during IA:10. This makes it specific to the setting where it is referencing as I am thinking they wanted to say that you should not be taking the Roc if you were building an army of Exorcists or Carcharodons for the siege army list.

At least that is my interpretation.

^I agree with the above. It is any C:SM chapter which can take it. Unless playing SAV in which case only Minotaurs may take it.

I agree with sudojoe.

Oh, and the Roc is a beast on the table.

Fire Raptors are just too good to any other flyer to compet with it.

I love that the Fire Raptor can put out 7 TL Avenger cannon shots as well as 12 TL Heavy Bolters Shots, but a Storm Eagle takes the cake for me. It's 300pts (if you upgrade it), but the firepower is amazing.
While the Fire Raptor is an amazing anti-infantry flyer, the Storm Eagle's anti-vehicle abilities are unmatched. 1 TL Multi-Melta, 2 TL Lascannons and a Vengeance Launcher, which can put out 2 S5, AP4, Large Blasts.

That is the problem with FW, much as I love using their rules. Vengeance launcher for example changed significantly as shown above. The most current rules of the eagle put it similar to a raven.. basically the precursor.

I prefer ravens overall but for AA/AT the stormwolf is best of those listed with 4 TL s8-9 two being melta. I would vote chaos fire raptor if available fwiw. The loyalist raptor isn't near as good at AA or actually anything that can't be done better by other anti infantry options.

After much discussions on it, I've updated the poll to have more answers and you can vote on multiple ones that you feel may be tied for first spot. (probably based on the rest of your list)

I for one would love the fire raptor but I have a sciarian already and they share too many traits/spots/target priority and I didn't want to include a master of the forge tax so it bumps it a bit lower for me but as a solo unit I can see it being better in my lists.

The roc fills an interesting spot as it handles AV really well it seems or the stormwolf (which is not all that much of a tax as a rune priest on bike fits well in my list and I can always just get a single 10 point servitor to camp an objective (hide) out of LOS, or for giggles, ride on the storm wolf I guess.) But the roc is so pricy at 310 points. Might still be worth it though. I'd have to throw out the centurions and their drop pod along with something else to fit but maybe worth it.