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I don't know who ripped off who and I don't care. The best creative efforts feed off each other, and the differences between Zerg and Tyranids are superficial.

 techsoldaten wrote:
I don't know who ripped off who and I don't care. The best creative efforts feed off each other, and the differences between Zerg and Tyranids are superficial.

I would say that the differences between the both Hive Minds is significant (Zerg leader creatures are actual individuals with emotions).

 Tyran wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
I don't know who ripped off who and I don't care. The best creative efforts feed off each other, and the differences between Zerg and Tyranids are superficial.

I would say that the differences between the both Hive Minds is significant (Zerg leader creatures are actual individuals with emotions).

Yeah I agree that the difference are a little more than superficial, Zerg have the Overmind (Dead) and Kerrigan. The Tyranids have a collective consciousness called the Hive Mind but it's not actually their leader. Zerg's Overmind has more in common with the Floodss Gravemind.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:


No one works on a project before there is a license, except for a teaser cute screen to show as an appetizer to gain backing. No one goes 80% into a finished product without a contract. It's ignorant to assume otherwise.

SJ

Yes, they did. They were a small start-up, and they were developing a game. All the (at the time) unique or different things they did with Warcraft (for example, multi-selecting several units, which was a "new"), were done.

In their words, they wanted to make it "Warhammer" from the visual side of things to give it brand recognition. There is a difference in the "engine" (if that is the correct term for a 1993 game) underneath and the graphics laid on top of it.

Also, it should be noted that, according to Patrick Wyatt, it wasn't GW who backed out and shot themselves in the foot (as the story is popularly told on Dakka). Many Blizzard people at the time wanted to avoid a license on principle and based on past bad experience with DC Comics.

Quote: http://kotaku.com/5929157/the-making-of-warcraft-part-1

Patrick Wyatt wrote:

Allen Adham hoped to obtain a license to the Warhammer universe to try to increase sales by brand recognition. Warhammer was a huge inspiration for the art-style of Warcraft, but a combination of factors, including a lack of traction on business terms and a fervent desire on the part of virtually everyone else on the development team (myself included) to control our own universe nixed any potential for a deal. We had already had terrible experiences working with DC Comics on "Death and Return of Superman" and "Justice League Task Force", and wanted no similar issues for our new game.

It's surprising now to think what might have happened had Blizzard not controlled the intellectual property rights for the Warcraft universe - it's highly unlikely Blizzard would be such a dominant player in the game industry today.

Years after the launch of Warcraft my dad, upon returning from a trip to Asia, gave me a present of a set of Warhammer miniatures in the form of a skeleton charioteer and horses with the comment: "I found these cool toys on my trip and they reminded me a lot of your game; you might want to have your legal department contact them because I think they're ripping you off." Hmmm!

Blizzard and Games Workshop are very litigious. I'm sure if one of them felt they had their IP ''ripped off' by the other they would have collided by now in a flurry of paperwork and court clashes.

All appears quiet on the IP front, which suggests they both got inspiration from elsewhere.

eh GW's reputation for sueing people comes from them going after little guys. they don't have the kinda finances to go after blizzard

 Zande4 wrote:

 Tyran wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
I don't know who ripped off who and I don't care. The best creative efforts feed off each other, and the differences between Zerg and Tyranids are superficial.

I would say that the differences between the both Hive Minds is significant (Zerg leader creatures are actual individuals with emotions).

Yeah I agree that the difference are a little more than superficial, Zerg have the Overmind (Dead) and Kerrigan. The Tyranids have a collective consciousness called the Hive Mind but it's not actually their leader. Zerg's Overmind has more in common with the Floodss Gravemind.

The personalities of those 2 are quite different.

And of course the Flood is far different from both the Zerg and the Tyranids.

 Argive wrote:
If nids still had 5th/6th ed models I'd probably start with them again.. The new models are gak imo.

Um, they do have 5th/6th ed models. The Carnifex as is now was introduced with the 4th ed Nids Codex. The Gaunts and Genestealers were before that but I'm not sure when, and everything else was between then and now. So most of them are 5th edition or 4th edition. Some 6th and the newest 7th, but most things since 5th have been brand new units, not redesigned. So I don't really get what you mean.

I just read this abstract after an article was talking about it. Thought it was pertinent: http://psycnet.apa.org/index.cfm?fa=buy.optionToBuy&id=1989-24862-001


Automatically Appended Next Post:
There is also a book called "may the source be with you", but I'm too lazy/busy to look for it. I hope it's about George Lucas ripping off old westerns.

Apparently the story was that GW had contacted Blizzard to make a Warhammer 40k Game, but balked at the last minute and removed the rights. Blizzard then took their game, renamed it Starcraft and GW came back around, saw the Zerg then took 'inspiration' from them for their model line.

FWIW

starcraft was released in 1998

3rd edition of 40k was released in 1998

the 3rd edition nid codex was not released until 2001, so in 1998 it was still using the 2nd edition nid codex.

the 2nd edition nid codex had already seen nids evolve from how they looked in space crusade era close to the nids we see today.. Starcraft most definately 'borrowed' the concept of their aliens from the tyranids during that time.

2001 saw the carnifex/HT change slightly in appearance, mostly the head but the termagants (zerglings) etc were already in place by 1995.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Apparently the story was that GW had contacted Blizzard to make a Warhammer 40k Game, but balked at the last minute and removed the rights. Blizzard then took their game, renamed it Starcraft and GW came back around, saw the Zerg then took 'inspiration' from them for their model line.

http://kotaku.com/5929161/how-warcraft-was-almost-a-warhammer-game-and-how-that-saved-wow

 Tyran wrote:

 Zande4 wrote:
The concept is older than Starship Troopers and Aliens. It comes from the base human psyche Id, Ego and Super Ego which basically means Primal Self, Self, Super Self. You will see it in a lot of genres eg. Zombies/Werewolves = Id vs Humans = Ego vs Vampires = Super Ego.

Starship Troopers = Bugs vs Humans vs Skinnies (Book only)
AvP = Alien vs Human vs Predator
Starcraft = Zerg vs Terran vs Protoss
Warhammer 40k Orks/Chaos/Tyranids vs Humans vs Eldar/Tau/Necrons
Halo = Flood vs Humans vs Covenant

@op Yeah I kinda agree but I do believe Blizzard and GWS had some sort of deal back in the 90s where they were going to co-develop an RTS (Starcraft) but the deal fell through. I believe a lot of the designs would have come from the processes of that game

Eh... that doesn't applies in Halo.

Care to explain why? Unless you miss interpreted the first paragraph? It perfectly applies to Halo. Yes even after the horrible back story introduced by Halo 4 it still applies. Id = Primal = Flood, Ego = Human, Super Ego = Better than human = Prophets/Elites. You could even argue Halo follows Starcraft and WH40K more than the others.

Giant Space Plague Threatens universe (Zerg, Flood, Tyranids) Super Advanced Civilisation will destroy it (Protoss, Covenant, Eldar) Super Advanced Civilisation has a creator that pre-dates the known timeline (Xel-Naga, Forerunners, The Old Ones) Humans have some secret power that make them special and relevant (Kerrigan, Emperor, We totally used to control the universe and are super special but the Flood and Forerunners sent us back to the Stone Age)

The first Halos are very heavily influenced from a lot of the above Sci-fis.

And the Flood are not very different from Zerg, Pre Kerrigan both have a "I'm a smart and will win because I'm a giant brain" leader (Gravemind, Overmind) they both consume and infest and fight very similar enemies.

 Zande4 wrote:

 Tyran wrote:

 Zande4 wrote:
The concept is older than Starship Troopers and Aliens. It comes from the base human psyche Id, Ego and Super Ego which basically means Primal Self, Self, Super Self. You will see it in a lot of genres eg. Zombies/Werewolves = Id vs Humans = Ego vs Vampires = Super Ego.

Starship Troopers = Bugs vs Humans vs Skinnies (Book only)
AvP = Alien vs Human vs Predator
Starcraft = Zerg vs Terran vs Protoss
Warhammer 40k Orks/Chaos/Tyranids vs Humans vs Eldar/Tau/Necrons
Halo = Flood vs Humans vs Covenant

@op Yeah I kinda agree but I do believe Blizzard and GWS had some sort of deal back in the 90s where they were going to co-develop an RTS (Starcraft) but the deal fell through. I believe a lot of the designs would have come from the processes of that game

Eh... that doesn't applies in Halo.

Care to explain why? Unless you miss interpreted the first paragraph? It perfectly applies to Halo. Yes even after the horrible back story introduced by Halo 4 it still applies. Id = Primal = Flood, Ego = Human, Super Ego = Better than human = Prophets/Elites. You could even argue Halo follows Starcraft and WH40K more than the others.

Giant Space Plague Threatens universe (Zerg, Flood, Tyranids) Super Advanced Civilisation will destroy it (Protoss, Covenant, Eldar) Super Advanced Civilisation has a creator that pre-dates the known timeline (Xel-Naga, Forerunners, The Old Ones) Humans have some secret power that make them special and relevant (Kerrigan, Emperor, We totally used to control the universe and are super special but the Flood and Forerunners sent us back to the Stone Age)

The first Halos are very heavily influenced from a lot of the above Sci-fis.

And the Flood are not very different from Zerg, Pre Kerrigan both have a "I'm a smart and will win because I'm a giant brain" leader (Gravemind, Overmind) they both consume and infest and fight very similar enemies.

Because the Covenant isn't better than humans and thus wouldn't apply to Super Ego.

The Forerunners aren't really the creators, but simply a very advanced race that built plenty of technology that the Covenant and humanity are fighting over, but they didn't create humanity nor the species that make the Covenant.

The actual creator race of the Halo verse is the Precursors, also know as the Flood, which created everyone in the galaxy and are the most advanced race in Halo.

Also the Flood and the Zerg are different. The latter is space locusts, the former is space zombies mixed with eldritch abominations. I agree the Overmind and the Garvemind are similar, but there is a difference in scale, the Gravemind is far older and is essentially the closest thing the Halo verse has to a god. He is probably closer to Amon.

i will smack you with a copy of the 4th edition rules. its the other wway around starcraft is a game made using stolen concept art from 40k that they got away with after a legal battle.

 Tyran wrote:

 Zande4 wrote:

 Tyran wrote:

 Zande4 wrote:
The concept is older than Starship Troopers and Aliens. It comes from the base human psyche Id, Ego and Super Ego which basically means Primal Self, Self, Super Self. You will see it in a lot of genres eg. Zombies/Werewolves = Id vs Humans = Ego vs Vampires = Super Ego.

Starship Troopers = Bugs vs Humans vs Skinnies (Book only)
AvP = Alien vs Human vs Predator
Starcraft = Zerg vs Terran vs Protoss
Warhammer 40k Orks/Chaos/Tyranids vs Humans vs Eldar/Tau/Necrons
Halo = Flood vs Humans vs Covenant

@op Yeah I kinda agree but I do believe Blizzard and GWS had some sort of deal back in the 90s where they were going to co-develop an RTS (Starcraft) but the deal fell through. I believe a lot of the designs would have come from the processes of that game

Eh... that doesn't applies in Halo.

Care to explain why? Unless you miss interpreted the first paragraph? It perfectly applies to Halo. Yes even after the horrible back story introduced by Halo 4 it still applies. Id = Primal = Flood, Ego = Human, Super Ego = Better than human = Prophets/Elites. You could even argue Halo follows Starcraft and WH40K more than the others.

Giant Space Plague Threatens universe (Zerg, Flood, Tyranids) Super Advanced Civilisation will destroy it (Protoss, Covenant, Eldar) Super Advanced Civilisation has a creator that pre-dates the known timeline (Xel-Naga, Forerunners, The Old Ones) Humans have some secret power that make them special and relevant (Kerrigan, Emperor, We totally used to control the universe and are super special but the Flood and Forerunners sent us back to the Stone Age)

The first Halos are very heavily influenced from a lot of the above Sci-fis.

And the Flood are not very different from Zerg, Pre Kerrigan both have a "I'm a smart and will win because I'm a giant brain" leader (Gravemind, Overmind) they both consume and infest and fight very similar enemies.

Because the Covenant isn't better than humans and thus wouldn't apply to Super Ego.

The Forerunners aren't really the creators, but simply a very advanced race that built plenty of technology that the Covenant and humanity are fighting over, but they didn't create humanity nor the species that make the Covenant.

The actual creator race of the Halo verse is the Precursors, also know as the Flood, which created everyone in the galaxy and are the most advanced race in Halo.

Also the Flood and the Zerg are different. The latter is space locusts, the former is space zombies mixed with eldritch abominations. I agree the Overmind and the Garvemind are similar, but there is a difference in scale, the Gravemind is far older and is essentially the closest thing the Halo verse has to a god. He is probably closer to Amon.

The Sangheili are a text book example of Super Ego. Larger, Stronger, Faster, Smarter and more advanced. While Zerg may be "space locust" and flood space zombies they still are for all intense and purposes Id. They are in our eyes lesser than us. Yes both races are probably superior to humans in their own universe just like Tyranids and Xenemorphs are superior to humans in a lot of ways in theirs but on a superficial level and from a creative standpoint the Flood fit perfectly to Sigmund Freud's theory of the human physche (Id, Ego, Super Ego) Especially considering it was first used in a creative way in the age old Humans vs Zombies which in your words is what Flood essentially are.

 Zande4 wrote:

 Tyran wrote:

 Zande4 wrote:

 Tyran wrote:

 Zande4 wrote:
The concept is older than Starship Troopers and Aliens. It comes from the base human psyche Id, Ego and Super Ego which basically means Primal Self, Self, Super Self. You will see it in a lot of genres eg. Zombies/Werewolves = Id vs Humans = Ego vs Vampires = Super Ego.

Starship Troopers = Bugs vs Humans vs Skinnies (Book only)
AvP = Alien vs Human vs Predator
Starcraft = Zerg vs Terran vs Protoss
Warhammer 40k Orks/Chaos/Tyranids vs Humans vs Eldar/Tau/Necrons
Halo = Flood vs Humans vs Covenant

@op Yeah I kinda agree but I do believe Blizzard and GWS had some sort of deal back in the 90s where they were going to co-develop an RTS (Starcraft) but the deal fell through. I believe a lot of the designs would have come from the processes of that game

Eh... that doesn't applies in Halo.

Care to explain why? Unless you miss interpreted the first paragraph? It perfectly applies to Halo. Yes even after the horrible back story introduced by Halo 4 it still applies. Id = Primal = Flood, Ego = Human, Super Ego = Better than human = Prophets/Elites. You could even argue Halo follows Starcraft and WH40K more than the others.

Giant Space Plague Threatens universe (Zerg, Flood, Tyranids) Super Advanced Civilisation will destroy it (Protoss, Covenant, Eldar) Super Advanced Civilisation has a creator that pre-dates the known timeline (Xel-Naga, Forerunners, The Old Ones) Humans have some secret power that make them special and relevant (Kerrigan, Emperor, We totally used to control the universe and are super special but the Flood and Forerunners sent us back to the Stone Age)

The first Halos are very heavily influenced from a lot of the above Sci-fis.

And the Flood are not very different from Zerg, Pre Kerrigan both have a "I'm a smart and will win because I'm a giant brain" leader (Gravemind, Overmind) they both consume and infest and fight very similar enemies.

Because the Covenant isn't better than humans and thus wouldn't apply to Super Ego.

The Forerunners aren't really the creators, but simply a very advanced race that built plenty of technology that the Covenant and humanity are fighting over, but they didn't create humanity nor the species that make the Covenant.

The actual creator race of the Halo verse is the Precursors, also know as the Flood, which created everyone in the galaxy and are the most advanced race in Halo.

Also the Flood and the Zerg are different. The latter is space locusts, the former is space zombies mixed with eldritch abominations. I agree the Overmind and the Garvemind are similar, but there is a difference in scale, the Gravemind is far older and is essentially the closest thing the Halo verse has to a god. He is probably closer to Amon.

The Sangheili are a text book example of Super Ego. Larger, Stronger, Faster, Smarter and more advanced. While Zerg may be "space locust" and flood space zombies they still are for all intense and purposes Id. They are in our eyes lesser than us. Yes both races are probably superior to humans in their own universe just like Tyranids and Xenemorphs are superior to humans in a lot of ways in theirs but on a superficial level and from a creative standpoint the Flood fit perfectly to Sigmund Freud's theory of the human physche (Id, Ego, Super Ego) Especially considering it was first used in a creative way in the age old Humans vs Zombies which in your words is what Flood essentially are.

The Sangheili are stronger and faster, but they are not smarter and their more advanced technology is only thanks to the Forerunner relics. By Halo 4, humanity has the lead in technology over the Covenant.

Those are plot developments, they have nothing to do with when the series was created which followed the above formula to a tee. Also the Sengheili were a category 4 space faring race before the intervention of the Prophets and their Forerunner technology (category 5) while humans where only a category 3 on the same level as Brutes. The Sangheili were also strategically outsmarting the UNSC on several fronts. It's the Sangheili that create the battle plans the rest just follow them. So plot developments aside at the creation of the Halo universe the Sangheili where more advanced, tactically superior, stronger and faster than humans. Textbook Super Ego.

blaktoof wrote:
FWIW

starcraft was released in 1998

3rd edition of 40k was released in 1998

the 3rd edition nid codex was not released until 2001, so in 1998 it was still using the 2nd edition nid codex.

the 2nd edition nid codex had already seen nids evolve from how they looked in space crusade era close to the nids we see today.. Starcraft most definately 'borrowed' the concept of their aliens from the tyranids during that time.

2001 saw the carnifex/HT change slightly in appearance, mostly the head but the termagants (zerglings) etc were already in place by 1995.

2nd edition codices were illegal in 3rd. They had to use the mini-codex in the back of the 3rd edition book.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ionusx wrote:
i will smack you with a copy of the 4th edition rules. its the other wway around starcraft is a game made using stolen concept art from 40k that they got away with after a legal battle.

They are both rip offs of Giger's Alien and Heinlein's Starship Troopers. Imitation being flattery and all that.

 Zande4 wrote:


Those are plot developments, they have nothing to do with when the series was created which followed the above formula to a tee. Also the Sengheili were a category 4 space faring race before the intervention of the Prophets and their Forerunner technology (category 5) while humans where only a category 3 on the same level as Brutes. The Sangheili were also strategically outsmarting the UNSC on several fronts. It's the Sangheili that create the battle plans the rest just follow them. So plot developments aside at the creation of the Halo universe the Sangheili where more advanced, tactically superior, stronger and faster than humans. Textbook Super Ego.

That's not how the civilization classification of Halo works, but I see your point.

But on your second point, no. The Covenant wasn't outsmarting the UNSC (aside of Thel Vadamee and his fleet, the Particular Justice). It was far simpler, the Covenant was smashing apart the UNSC in space combat.

I concede that at the beginning it was based on this Freud stuff, but as the plot advanced it separated from it.