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Heya all,

A friend of mine and I have bought heavily lately into Infinity: we bought one I:O starter and one N3 core ruleset each, and a load of assorted stuff (he's going for Panocs and Nomads, logically enough: I already had some old Panoc and Yu Jing stuff from back in 1st edition, along with some Haqqs, Ariadnans and mercs, but not really enough to play with; Compounded to that I've bought some Combined Army stuff to start afresh).

Right now, I'm trying to do lists with my Yu Jing stuff, using the stats from the coreset. I have the following:

3 Zanshi (Combi Rifle)
3 Keisotsu Butai (Combi Rifle)
1 Keisotsu Butai (Combi Rifle-Light GL)
1 Domaru (Boarding shotgun)
1 Shàng Jí (Combi Rifle+Light FT)
1 Invincible (Multi Rifle)
1 Hac Tao (Multi Rifle, Shock CCW)
1 Hsien (HMG)
1 Ninja (Combi Rifle)
1 Ninja (Multi Sniper Rifle)
2 Shaolin Monks (Chain rifle)
1 Aragoto Senkenbutai (Spitfire)
1 Aragoto Senkenbutai (Combi Rifle + Shotgun)
1 Celestial Guard (Combi Rifle)

The Aragotos and the Celestial Guard I don't really know what I could use them for with the current released N3 stats, but for the other stuff I was thinking this should work:

6 Zanshi, Combi Rifle (11 x 3 = 33) (3 would be Keisotsu Butais)
1 Zhanshi, Combi Rifle-Light GL (15) (SWC 1) (Keisotsu Butai)

1 Invincible ZÚYONG, Terracota Soldier, Boarding Shotgun (26) (Domaru Boarding Shotgun)
1 Invincible ZÚYONG, Terracota Soldier, Combi Rifle (27) (Shàng Jí Combi Rifle+Light FT)
1 Invincible ZÚYONG, Terracota Soldier, MULTI Rifle (31) (Invincible MULTI Rifle)
1 Hac Tao (Multi Rifle, Shock CCW) (64)
1 Hsien (HMG) (61) (SWC 2)
1 Ninja (Combi Rifle) (35)
1 Ninja (Multi Sniper Rifle) (42) (SWC 1.5)
2 Shaolin Monks (Chain rifle) (5 x 2)... seriously, 5 points?

That would make a grand total of 377 points, and 296 without any zhanshi. And it looks kinda cool: 9 minis, 5 of which are HI? Cool . What I don't really know is if the actual list would be any good at all... I mean, it would have 3 TO minis (!) lots of HI for the enemy to chew on and even a couple of crazy irregulars with smoke grenades, but I don't know... looks a bit all over the place ^^ Would it be better to change some of those for some good, reliable regular troops (zhanshi)? I'm already planning on buying the new Hac Tao just because the mini is absolutely stunning, but I'm not sure what I'd need to make this a viable force.

Also... shaolin monks with chain rifles and smoke grenades for 5 points? What am I missing? They don't really seem horrible to me...

I'm not that familiar with Yu Jing, so I can't really help you with the list, although the normal format is 300 points, and you should really have at least 10 Orders.
You also should have some specialists for scenarios. The game is much better when it's about more than just killing everything.

For the Monks:

Irregular, so they don't add their Order to the Order Pool;

Extremely Impetuous, so they do not get Partial Cover, and they always try to run toward the closest enemy, unless you spend an Order to stop them;

With CC 22, Martial Arts L3, Shock CCW, and a Chain Rifle, they are dangerous if they manage to get close, but they are vulnerable during the approach.

Think of them as munitions more than as models. Their jobs is to go forward and take something bigger than them with them when they die.

Yu Jing tends to have a lot of HI anyways, because that's their specialty. The TerraCottas are also interesting for being pretty much the cheapest HI in the game. Just note that they may be HI, but they have the same armor value as many MI. Their bonus comes from their two wounds and 4-4 movement. Their drawback comes from being somewhat plain compared to similar-costed MI and vulnerability to E/M and Hackers.

I don't suggest taking three TO unless you have a strong strategic reason for doing so. One or even two is often enough. With all your Impetuous Monks, you're going to be order-starved anyways, and deploying your TO units in Hidden Deployment will cut down your orders even further. You could always deploy your TO units as markers, but then you're just wasting their potential, I think, and overpaying for them. Drop one of the Ninjas. Perhaps also choose between the Hac Tao or the Sniper Ninja. If you're beginning, don't play with TO for the time being and then introduce one of them to your list later.

Also, as mrondeau mentioned, 377 points is unusually high. 300 is often the high point. As a beginner, try lists of 150-200 points for now.

Monks are fine to take and they're priced rather nicely. But again as mrondeau mentioned, they have their drawbacks. Take them as an afterthought if you have the points to spend, but don't bulk up your force with them.

You need some 'standard' infantry, I think. You have Zhanshi and Celestial Guard. Use those. They're cheap and quite capable. You'll soon learn in Infinity that even the lowliest model can actually accomplish a surprising amount and that having orders is important. Zhanshi have N3 stats and you have three, use those. I'd go with the Zhanshi over the Keikotsu if only for the +1 BS. Keikotsu are useful for the Japanese-only sectorial, but you can afford to pay two extra points for the +1 BS.

mrondeau wrote:I'm not that familiar with Yu Jing, so I can't really help you with the list, although the normal format is 300 points, and you should really have at least 10 Orders.
You also should have some specialists for scenarios. The game is much better when it's about more than just killing everything.

Yeah, I was actually hoping for that, so that's very nice to hear. As I said, the stuff I have is stuff I bought back in the day because I thought it looked cool, so it certainly will be skeeeved ^^.

For the Monks:

Irregular, so they don't add their Order to the Order Pool;

Extremely Impetuous, so they do not get Partial Cover, and they always try to run toward the closest enemy, unless you spend an Order to stop them;

With CC 22, Martial Arts L3, Shock CCW, and a Chain Rifle, they are dangerous if they manage to get close, but they are vulnerable during the approach.

Think of them as munitions more than as models. Their jobs is to go forward and take something bigger than them with them when they die.

Heh. They'll probably be fun, then. And being so cheap, it won't hurt too much when they get obliterated.

Absolutionis wrote:Yu Jing tends to have a lot of HI anyways, because that's their specialty. The TerraCottas are also interesting for being pretty much the cheapest HI in the game. Just note that they may be HI, but they have the same armor value as many MI. Their bonus comes from their two wounds and 4-4 movement. Their drawback comes from being somewhat plain compared to similar-costed MI and vulnerability to E/M and Hackers.

Honestly speaking, the only HI I've tried so far are Orc troops, and compared to those I'd say they don't look half bad ^_^. Flimsier, but with Kinematica and 2 breaker pistols by default they look a lot more aggresive (a lot less shooty, though). I see they have a whole lot more options, though (Deflector tinbot, automedkit, FO, medkit, missile launcher...). Is that normal for HI? They kind of look like some sort of "super-grunt", to me.

I don't suggest taking three TO unless you have a strong strategic reason for doing so. One or even two is often enough. With all your Impetuous Monks, you're going to be order-starved anyways, and deploying your TO units in Hidden Deployment will cut down your orders even further. You could always deploy your TO units as markers, but then you're just wasting their potential, I think, and overpaying for them. Drop one of the Ninjas. Perhaps also choose between the Hac Tao or the Sniper Ninja. If you're beginning, don't play with TO for the time being and then introduce one of them to your list later.

I'll need to play a lot more before I actually know what to do with TO, honestly speaking ^^.

Also, as mrondeau mentioned, 377 points is unusually high. 300 is often the high point. As a beginner, try lists of 150-200 points for now.

Yeah, that 377 points quote was more a statement of how much points I had in total than anything else.

Monks are fine to take and they're priced rather nicely. But again as mrondeau mentioned, they have their drawbacks. Take them as an afterthought if you have the points to spend, but don't bulk up your force with them.

Gotcha

You need some 'standard' infantry, I think. You have Zhanshi and Celestial Guard. Use those. They're cheap and quite capable. You'll soon learn in Infinity that even the lowliest model can actually accomplish a surprising amount and that having orders is important. Zhanshi have N3 stats and you have three, use those. I'd go with the Zhanshi over the Keikotsu if only for the +1 BS. Keikotsu are useful for the Japanese-only sectorial, but you can afford to pay two extra points for the +1 BS.

Seeing as Keisotsus don't currently have N3 stats, the choice is clear right now.

Thanks much for all the advice!

 Albertorius wrote:
Honestly speaking, the only HI I've tried so far are Orc troops, and compared to those I'd say they don't look half bad ^_^. Flimsier, but with Kinematica and 2 breaker pistols by default they look a lot more aggresive (a lot less shooty, though). I see they have a whole lot more options, though (Deflector tinbot, automedkit, FO, medkit, missile launcher...). Is that normal for HI? They kind of look like some sort of "super-grunt", to me.

That's the whole point of them. They're the line infantry in the Invincible Army sectorial (coming in Acheron Falls, the next book). The whole point is they're very baseline and much cheaper heavy infantry with light infantry type options. They're heavy line infantry. They're not going to seem special compared to other HI because what makes them special is that they aren't special. They're basic line infantry with two wounds and better than average ARM.

 -Loki- wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:
Honestly speaking, the only HI I've tried so far are Orc troops, and compared to those I'd say they don't look half bad ^_^. Flimsier, but with Kinematica and 2 breaker pistols by default they look a lot more aggresive (a lot less shooty, though). I see they have a whole lot more options, though (Deflector tinbot, automedkit, FO, medkit, missile launcher...). Is that normal for HI? They kind of look like some sort of "super-grunt", to me.

That's the whole point of them. They're the line infantry in the Invincible Army sectorial (coming in Acheron Falls, the next book). The whole point is they're very baseline and much cheaper heavy infantry with light infantry type options. They're heavy line infantry. They're not going to seem special compared to other HI because what makes them special is that they aren't special. They're basic line infantry with two wounds and better than average ARM.

...but if actions are a currency so valuable for the game, couldn't having more expensive regular troopers (like, about twice as expensive) that are not much tougher than two regular grunts be shooting yourself in the foot a bit, there? I mean, if you more or less absolutely need to have as many actions as possible (or up to 10, anyway), more expensive grunts will make harder to get more actions...

Welcome to Vedic Aleph.
Half my list making is "how can I fit in more Orders ?", and that's with Netrods.

 Albertorius wrote:
...but if actions are a currency so valuable for the game, couldn't having more expensive regular troopers (like, about twice as expensive) that are not much tougher than two regular grunts be shooting yourself in the foot a bit, there? I mean, if you more or less absolutely need to have as many actions as possible (or up to 10, anyway), more expensive grunts will make harder to get more actions...

Yes and no. The ideal order count is 8-10 per combat group. This is for two reasons - first, to have a lot of orders to get units around, and also to have enough orders to lose, because your units will die. Starting with 8-10 means you can lose a few models before starting to hurt on orders.

If your 8 orders are all 2 wound models with 4-4 movement and at least ARM 3 (which is the point of the all HI Invincible army), you're in a much better position since it's harder for you to lose orders in the first place. Add to that the new rules for coordinated orders, and you can get some great order efficiency at the start of the game by moving up to 4 models with a single regular order and a command token. In the sectorial, they will also very likely be linkable, giving you order efficiency from a link team.

As they are, the Terracottas probably aren't going to add much to a vanilla Yu Jing force, because they're designed as a special case. They're there to provide heavy line infantry to a particular sectorial. Their place in a vanilla force is if you really want a super budget HI with not many tricks to just put a 2 wound model on the table without much of a point cost.

 -Loki- wrote:
Their place in a vanilla force is if you really want a super budget HI with not many tricks to just put a 2 wound model on the table without much of a point cost.

This use should not be underestimated, BTW. I mostly do it with No Wound Incapacitation rather than a true second Wound, but being able to get out of cover, take an ARO in the face without worry and do whatever needed to be done is often invaluable.
I have won games this way, and more than once.

Thanks for all the answers. Bit by bit I think I'm understanding better how the game is supposed to go.

-Loki- wrote:Yes and no. The ideal order count is 8-10 per combat group. This is for two reasons - first, to have a lot of orders to get units around, and also to have enough orders to lose, because your units will die. Starting with 8-10 means you can lose a few models before starting to hurt on orders.

If your 8 orders are all 2 wound models with 4-4 movement and at least ARM 3 (which is the point of the all HI Invincible army), you're in a much better position since it's harder for you to lose orders in the first place. Add to that the new rules for coordinated orders, and you can get some great order efficiency at the start of the game by moving up to 4 models with a single regular order and a command token. In the sectorial, they will also very likely be linkable, giving you order efficiency from a link team.

Haven't really started to delve into linked groups or coordinated orders, but it's good to know that there's at least some ways around having less orders.

As they are, the Terracottas probably aren't going to add much to a vanilla Yu Jing force, because they're designed as a special case. They're there to provide heavy line infantry to a particular sectorial. Their place in a vanilla force is if you really want a super budget HI with not many tricks to just put a 2 wound model on the table without much of a point cost.

Hm. Is that a thing that happens a lot in Infinity? I was kinda hoping that everything would be in about the same footing in vanilla armies.

mrondeau wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:
Their place in a vanilla force is if you really want a super budget HI with not many tricks to just put a 2 wound model on the table without much of a point cost.

This use should not be underestimated, BTW. I mostly do it with No Wound Incapacitation rather than a true second Wound, but being able to get out of cover, take an ARO in the face without worry and do whatever needed to be done is often invaluable.
I have won games this way, and more than once.

Would you put and AutoMedikit in the same list? Because the Terracota Soldier with HMG and AutMedikit for 39 points look awfully nice, and can be a lieutenant even...

 Albertorius wrote:
Hm. Is that a thing that happens a lot in Infinity? I was kinda hoping that everything would be in about the same footing in vanilla armies.

Yeah, it is. To take an example from my army, Hassassin Muyibs. They're mid-cost light infantry and kind of plain, with a trick - Dogged, which lets them keep trucking if they take a wound.

In low point games, they're more a low cost elite infantry. In 300pt games, a rifle Muyib is pretty ordinary. But a Spitfire Muyib isn't because of Dogged - if your Spitfire Muyib gets clipped early, they can go on a rampage but then die when the rampage stops. But outside of that, there's better options for vanilla to take a Spitfire.

In Hassassin Bahram, they form one of the two linked teams you can take, and are actually a really offensive link team. They've got competition now from Govads with their MSVs, but Muyibs are still a good, not too pricey linked team.

That's not to say Muyibs are bad in vainlla lists, and I'm sure Terracottas won't be in vanilla Yu Jing. But they were built in mind to be a linked team. Remember, this is Infinity - it's not your list, it's you. If you know why you're putting a Muyib, or Terracotta, in your list and what you want it to accomplish, then do it. It's not going to hinder you. I frequently take a rifle Muyib in 300pt vanilla Haqqislam lists because the model is badass, and he usually outkills most of my big guns for some reason.

Well, finally managed to play a damn game!

We ended up doing 150 points, and as all the profiles were available, I ended using the following:

- Shàng Jí Lieutenant (Combi Rifle, Lt. Flamethrower) 37
- Domaru Butai (Chain Rifle, E/M CCW) 25
- Ninja (Combi Rifle, CCW DA) 35
- Zanshi (Combi Rifle) 11
- Zanshi (Combi Rifle, Medikit) 13
- Zanshi (Hacker) 19, 0.5 SWC
- 2 x Shaolin Warrior Monks (Chain Rifle) 5 x 2

All in all it went well, but I think we don't know how the hell to use smoke grenades. I mean, you throw them and plant them, and the rules say that you have to roll to see if anyone hit by them takes damage and the like, but as smoke grenades don't do damage... you just put them whenever the hell you want?

1- You pick a target point, which does not need to be an enemy trooper (so yes, you place it where you want. If it's not in line-of-sight, it becomes speculative fire.)
2- You throw the grenade, like usual.
3- If any shot goes towards your model, passing through the smoke template, the throw counts as a Dodge.

Example 1, Active Turn:
Trooper A want to move through a large open space without being shot.
Spend an Order to place a smoke grenade in the middle. Roll PH. In case of success, smoke appears. In case of failure, no smoke.

Example 1.1, Active Turn:
Same as 1, except that an enemy trooper B would be in the template area.
B can declare Dodge as its ARO. In this case, A and B both use Normal Roll, not Face-to-Face.
If B succeed, B can move 2".

Example 2, Active Turn:
Trooper A want to move through a large open space without being shot.
Enemy Trooper B, C can see Trooper A, from the same angle. Enemy Trooper D can also see A, from another angle.
A decides to throw a smoke grenade towards B and C.
B and C shoot in ARO, with the shots passing through the template. D also shoots, but its shot does not go through the template.
D use a Normal Roll.

B and C use a Face-to-Face roll against A's throw.
If A beats B and C, smoke appears. If B or C beats A, smoke does not appears.
D success or failure is not relevant to the smoke, only to A's life expectancy.

Example 3, Reactive Turn:
Enemy Trooper B is well placed to kill A, who suicidaly stopped in the open, far from any cover.
B declares Idle as its first skill; A declares Smoke Grenade as its ARO; B declares BS Attack as its second skill.
This is a Face-to-Face roll. If A beats all of B's roll, Smoke appears and A is safe.

Ohh, very interesting. Thanks! That seems sensible enough, even though one would think that if you throw a grenade it should end up somewhere, but I understand it's an artifact of the game to make it easier to resolve.

40cm of deviation felt like a bit much, too xD.

After this game, I've made an order at my FLGS to get the following:

- JSA Support pack (because specialists and because they look sooooo much better than the regular ones)
- Yaokong Remotes (because tachikomas)
- Shaolin Warrior Monks (because I kinda like the crazy fethers)
- Sun Tze (because knowing yourself and the enemy...)
- Wu Ming Assault Corps (just because)
- Asuka Kisaragi, Asargoto Senkenbutai Jun-I (because Akira bikers)
- Zuyong Invincible, Terracotta Soldier (because I like'em)
- Hac Tao HMG (because OH MY GOOD HOW GOOD IS THAT MINI)

So, this was my very first non-OI N3 game:



The table was not 120cm wide, though (about 95cm, IIRC), but I'm planning to buy some wood panels to correct that.

Would you say that was enough scenery? Too much?

I would say that this is a forbidden amount of scenery, but that's because the image does not show, and I get a 403 (no permission) when I click on it.

Huh. Weird. Let's try it this way:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/jlsd001q8zwzp0q/WIN_20150124_195600.jpg?dl=0

Visible.
Overall, it looks fine. The density is high enough.
The only problem I see are the long empty firing lane in the lower right, and the empty spot right below it.

Those are not big issues depending on which direction you deployed, but it should be better if you have some pieces of partial cover in the firing lane.

You could, for example, move one of the white container towards the unpainted tower, and place the barricades in the firing lane.

Yeah, actually the dudes on the lower side were mine >_>. In that game I kinda solved the problem with an extensive use of smoke grenades to cover mi advance for that flank (those four minis down there were 2 shaolins, a Domaru and a zanshi paramedic). Managed to avoid the HMG Moira sitting on the opposite building from shooting until I got into chain gun range.

Ah, yes. Smoke and Chain Rifle. My favourite combination.
By which I mean: I hate it about has much as I hate it when people shoot at my Netrods.
I mean, those Netrods are just trying to give you free wi-fi! And to give me an order, but who care about that.

Proper use of smoke does solve a lot of cover related problems. Then again, that's what MSV 2 and 3 are for.

Yaokongs (and other similar generic remotes) are really good now, cheaper and pretty strong.

One of my new favourites is the Crane rank Imperial Agent. Nice model, and finally a great profile for him too.

Wu Ming have had their price slashed and have some interesting profiles this edition.

One thing, as monks are impetuous, you may just run them in a second combat group on their own and just use them as smoke cover and cheap units that are a danger if they get too close.

The Hsien can shoot enemies through the smoke, along with the Rui Shi remote and Bad Troopers.