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Made in us
Perturbed Blood Angel Tactical Marine




Oaklyn, NJ

So we are arguing on our league Facebook page as to whether the homing beacon works from inside a stormraven. Everyone agrees that AOE warlord traits like fearless work from inside a transport but the argument is that because the formation stated that the unit must deepstrike within 12" of "the model" with the homing beacon rather then just saying the unit or sergeant that they can not be embarked. My argument is that everything refers to a model whether it says the word model or not. I know the old FAQ had a ruling on AOE powers stating that you measured from the hull if it was embarked but they removed that line. Anyone have a solid argument either way with proof? Would be appreciated as 2 us in the league may run this formation.

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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




This thread covered the formation

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/627370.page

The short answer is that effects from models inside transports are measured from the hull

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/01 23:16:30


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





using the same logic however the same RAW states you can target models inside a vehicle with weapons that ignore LoS like novas/barrage/or anything that states it ignores line of sight.

so its questionable if such effects extend from the hull, as there is the rules for measuring from the hull state if you need to measure from the hull.

It tells you what to do if you have permission, it does not actually give you permission to measure from the hull for rules that require you to measure to a model.

There currently is no actual rules permission in 7th for measuring from the hull for aoe effects in the rulebook, just a mention of how to do it if you need to do it.

some rules that require you to have a model a certain distance, allow for the rule to be used when embarked but with no actual range from the vehicle, it just affects the vehicle.

ie repair abilities, and psychic hood, I think a few more were brought up in that thread.

edit-

additionally the background 'fluff' for the rule specifically mentions that once the tactical sergeants are on the ground they can use their teleport homers. Given there is no actual permission for them to use it embarked, and the background fluff RAI also support that, the models have to be on the table.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/01/02 00:45:21


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




You can't use the fluff to ever justify RAW, thats a huge rabbit hole to get lost in(heck, it's a "teleport homer" meaning by fluff the only units that could benefit would be termies). Besides, the formation's rule isn't dependent on using the homers themselves, just arriving within so many inches of them.
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




I am the person in Angelus Mortis's league that is arguing with him on how the formation works.

The key point of the rule is that the formation specifies that they have to arrive within 12" of 2 of the models equipped with the Teleport Homer.

GW has also defined the term "Model" in the BRB. Pg. 8, first paragraph "The citadel miniatures used to play games of Warhammer 40,000 are referred to as "models" in the rules that follow. Models represent a huge variety of troops from noble Space Marines and Brutal Orks to Warp-spawned Daemons. To reflect all their differences, each model has its own characteristic profile."

Sarge and the Storm Raven have separate characteristic profiles. Of which, only the Sarge can have a teleport homer.

The only models that can be equipped with the teleport homers in the formation are the 3 Sarge models. Storm Ravens can not be equipped with them.

Since the BRB FAQ no longer includes the line stating that all area of effects granted by wargear are measured from vehicles that the embarked models are on you cannot measure from the hull of the transport that a sarge is embarked upon.

Thus Sarge has to exit from the storm raven to be eligible to be one of the 2 models that the deep striking unit has to arrive within 12" of.

If the formation replaced the word "model" with "unit" it would work as AngelusMortis says. Because the definition of Unit on Pg. 9 of the BRB would allows for it.

GW is specific in their definitions, and the usage of the word "Model" and "Unit" is very precise.
   
Made in au
Frenzied Berserker Terminator






"If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit...this range is measured to or from the vehicle's hull." -RB; Transports, Embarking and Disembarking, Embarking

Units are composed of models, so if you want to measure a range to a specific model, then you are measuring a range involving a unit.

That said, remember that you have to measure from the hull to the actual base of the model outside the transport, rather than the air above it. This means that you'd have to measure diagonally, which severely limits your options for where you can measure to.
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




Model is different than unit.

The formation specifies the model equipped with the teleport homer. Not the Unit that contains the model that is equipped the teleport homer.

Thus if the model isn't on the table, it can't be measured from.

It can't be simpler. The BRB differentiates between the two terms.

It's also a case where RAW aligns directly with RAI.

As blaktoof stated, the fluff text accompanying the formation clearly indicates the intention of the Sarge being outside of the transport in order for it to work as well.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/02 09:00:39


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Balisong wrote:
Model is different than unit.

The formation specifies the model equipped with the teleport homer. Not the Unit that contains the model that is equipped the teleport homer.

Thus if the model isn't on the table, it can't be measured from.

It can't be simpler. The BRB differentiates between the two terms.

It's also a case where RAW aligns directly with RAI.

As blaktoof stated, the fluff text accompanying the formation clearly indicates the intention of the Sarge being outside of the transport in order for it to work as well.



Sorry. The models in question are part of the embarked unit.

"If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit . . . "

You need to show how the models with the teleport homers are somehow not a part of the embarked unit, since blanket permission is being granted to measure ranges involving the embarked unit, and the models with the teleport homers are definitely included in the embarked unit.
   
Made in au
Frenzied Berserker Terminator






Balisong wrote:
Model is different than unit.

I'm not arguing that. I'm arguing that the model is part of the unit, therefore measuring to the model is a "range involving the embarked unit", which is what the Embarking rules require.

Edit: to clarify further, the rule does not talk about "measuring to the unit". If it did, then I would agree with you. Instead, it only mentions measuring [any] range that involves the unit, and any range that involves a model in the unit by extension would involve the unit it is in.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/02 10:33:40


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Cheexsta wrote:
"If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit...this range is measured to or from the vehicle's hull." -RB; Transports, Embarking and Disembarking, Embarking

Units are composed of models, so if you want to measure a range to a specific model, then you are measuring a range involving a unit.

That said, remember that you have to measure from the hull to the actual base of the model outside the transport, rather than the air above it. This means that you'd have to measure diagonally, which severely limits your options for where you can measure to.


which isn't actual permission to use the item when embarked.

it is only telling you how to resolve measuring to embarked units when a rule specifically allows you to target an embarked unit, or for an embarked unit to use something when embarked.

the teleport homer itself requires the model to be on the table, and normally could not be used while embarked as it has no actual permission to do so.

blanket permission to use items while embarked was removed this edition is it no longer stated.

the rule for how to resolve measuring to/from embarked units is still there because some rules specifically may state that embarked models can use them. However the actual permission that was in 6th and before is gone.

much like vehicles moving were said that they could pivot for free in previous editions, which is now also gone.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/02 12:33:58


 
   
Made in us
Trigger-Happy Baal Predator Pilot





Sparta, Ohio

blaktoof wrote:
 Cheexsta wrote:
"If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit...this range is measured to or from the vehicle's hull." -RB; Transports, Embarking and Disembarking, Embarking

Units are composed of models, so if you want to measure a range to a specific model, then you are measuring a range involving a unit.

That said, remember that you have to measure from the hull to the actual base of the model outside the transport, rather than the air above it. This means that you'd have to measure diagonally, which severely limits your options for where you can measure to.


which isn't actual permission to use the item when embarked.

it is only telling you how to resolve measuring to embarked units when a rule specifically allows you to target an embarked unit, or for an embarked unit to use something when embarked.

the teleport homer itself requires the model to be on the table, and normally could not be used while embarked as it has no actual permission to do so.

blanket permission to use items while embarked was removed this edition is it no longer stated.

the rule for how to resolve measuring to/from embarked units is still there because some rules specifically may state that embarked models can use them. However the actual permission that was in 6th and before is gone.

much like vehicles moving were said that they could pivot for free in previous editions, which is now also gone.



Just a single Teleport Homer does require that the model be "on the table"... good thing Augur Triangulation only require that two models be equipped with the teleport homers. This Special rule does not require that the unit be "on the table", just that said wargear be nearby.

Now, we like big books. (And we cannot lie. You other readers can’t deny, a book flops open with an itty-bitty font, and a map that’s in your face, you get—sorry! Sorry!)  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 OIIIIIIO wrote:
blaktoof wrote:
 Cheexsta wrote:
"If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit...this range is measured to or from the vehicle's hull." -RB; Transports, Embarking and Disembarking, Embarking

Units are composed of models, so if you want to measure a range to a specific model, then you are measuring a range involving a unit.

That said, remember that you have to measure from the hull to the actual base of the model outside the transport, rather than the air above it. This means that you'd have to measure diagonally, which severely limits your options for where you can measure to.


which isn't actual permission to use the item when embarked.

it is only telling you how to resolve measuring to embarked units when a rule specifically allows you to target an embarked unit, or for an embarked unit to use something when embarked.

the teleport homer itself requires the model to be on the table, and normally could not be used while embarked as it has no actual permission to do so.

blanket permission to use items while embarked was removed this edition is it no longer stated.

the rule for how to resolve measuring to/from embarked units is still there because some rules specifically may state that embarked models can use them. However the actual permission that was in 6th and before is gone.

much like vehicles moving were said that they could pivot for free in previous editions, which is now also gone.



Just a single Teleport Homer does require that the model be "on the table"... good thing Augur Triangulation only require that two models be equipped with the teleport homers. This Special rule does not require that the unit be "on the table", just that said wargear be nearby.


and you ignored the part that you do not have permission to use it while embarked and the section in the rulebook about how to measure to/from an embarked unit if you need to is not actual permission but telling you how to do it if you do have permission.

   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




He's also ignoring the part of the rule that specifies that the exact model equipped with the homer is needed for measurement. Which also discounts the stormravens, and can only be the 3 sarge models...
   
Made in nl
Loyal Necron Lychguard



Netherlands

blaktoof wrote:
and you ignored the part that you do not have permission to use it while embarked and the section in the rulebook about how to measure to/from an embarked unit if you need to is not actual permission but telling you how to do it if you do have permission.
But you're not using the Teleport Homer, you are using a Formation rule that cares about the location of the Teleport Homer.
You might think that is the same, but the rules disagree.
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




And that's why the formation specifies the actual model equipped with the homer.

The Storm Ravens are not equipped with the homer...
   
 
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