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I am excited to be returning to the hobby after a long hiatus (since 4th ed!). I have decided to reinvest and start from the ground up with an allied Space Marine and Inquisition Army. I've read through the new rules and countless forum posts and have settled on an 1850 pt. list on which I would greatly appreciate advice. I would like the list to be competitive (I asked around at my LGS and got feedback that most players are certainly competitive but not entirely waac). I hope I've chosen a list which fits that description and could hold its own against other well designed armies.

Primary Detachment - Space Marines (Using Clan Raukaan)
Naturally, Chapter Tactics are Iron Hands

HQ:
Chapter Master [240]
- Artificer Armour, Gorgon's Chain, Thunder Hammer, Lightning Claw

Elites:
Techmarine [50] (does not use a FoS)
Techmarine [50] (does not use a FoS)
Techmarine [50]

Troops:
5 Scouts [55]
5 Scouts [55]
5 Scouts [55]

Heavy Support:
Land Raider [260]
- Multi-melta
Land Raider [260]
- Multi-melta
Land Raider [260]
- Multi-melta

Inquisitorial Detachment

HQ:
Ordox Xenos Inquisitor [100]
- Psyker (ML1), Rad Grenades, Psychotroke Grenades, The Liber Heresius, Force Sword

Henchmen Warband [415]
1 Psyker (ML1)
2 Ministorum Priest
5 Death Cult Assassin
Dedicated Land Raider Crusader
- Psybolt Ammunition, Extra Armour, Multi-melta

Total: 1850 pts.

The Chapter Master joins a Techmarine, the Inquisitor, and the Henchmen Warband in the Land Raider Crusader. A combination of Divination/Telepathy buffs, Rad/Psychotroke grenades, and a high likelihood of a priest granting the Master re-rollable 2+/3++ saves in combat (on top of his 4 or 5+ FNP, IWND, and EW) makes an already infamously resilient character almost immovable.

The Scout Squads will each remain inside one of the three traditional Land Raiders. Two of the squads will be accompanied by the remaining Techmarines. Supported by 5+ IWND and a 4+ Blessing of the Omnissiah I hope that the sheer number of AV14 hull points will prove overwhelming to many armies.

The army is tremendously low on models but every one is protected by extremely resilient AV 14 armour. I hope that the resilience of the Land Raiders provides the Chapter Master / Inquisition deathstar ample time to slog through whatever comes its way.

I am greatly looking foward to modelling the army as a product of an Ordos Xenos Inquisitor's radical application of Xenos (dark eldar) drugs and augmentations to bolster the resilience of his warband's armour and flesh. (This provides the modelling/fluff motivation for taking so few units but making them tremendously resilient).

I am grateful for any comments or criticisms. I've done as much research online as I could about this edition, but without any experience of my own I am sure the list can be improved!

-Zessa

Are flyers popular in your meta? If so, I think you're going to have some difficulty dealing with them. Also, if survivability is your goal, I think there's a way to make the Iron Hands Chapter Master ridiculously resilient.

I am not sure if they are. I've only been able to speak briefly so far to a few guys that play there while I was in buying paint.

Which flyers are most dangerous to AV14? I would imagine if they are prevalent I need to invest in AA. I would prefer to not field flyers of my own so would a stock Stalker or two in the backline be best?

My understanding is that Salamander Master Harath Shen provides the most 'overpowered' survivability with his special rule of re-rolling 1's for FNP tests. This effectively gives the Master a base FNP of 4+ which is improved by his Chains to 3+ and can be pushed to 2+ with a fortuitous roll on the Warlord Table. His invulnerable save can be improved if I choose to roll on sanctic with the Inquisitor or Psychic and get Sanctuary. This all would leave him with 4 eternal warrior wounds with a 2+/2++(/2+++) that he re-rolls in combat with IWND. I felt like using Master Harath Shen rules (even if I modelled it creatively/sensibly) might be crossing the line of waac . I will consider it though depending on the intensity of my local meta.

While your assessment is correct with Harath (both with the boosts and the potentially crossing the line), biking your chapter master also makes him more survivable (without totally ruining any friendships you might have been about to form) by giving him T5, making it a bit harder to hurt him-I prefer toughness over saves because toughness works for everything. Give it a think-I think he would be more than survivable enough that you could let him run on a bike without worrying too much in this list, there are soooooo many things that the opponent will have to be shooting at.

Also, I like the list and the idea behind it-I'm building my own IH based chapter at the moment too

- Redacted -

I considered a Bike Master but after running the rough statistics shown below, I am leaning towards keeping him with the Henchmen Squad. I also thought that since the entire army starts inside AV14, any weapon that cannot damage AV14 is effectively 'turned on' by targetting a Bike Chapter Master.

Shown are the number of attacks or shots of a given type that are needed to inflict ONE wound on the Chapter Master. FiW is Flesh is Weak, which the Chapter Master has a 31% chance of acquiring.


With that in mind here is a streamlined list:

Chapter Master 240
AA, GC, TH, LC
Master of the Forge 90
Techmarine 50
Techmarine 50
5 Scouts 55
5 Scouts 55
5 Scouts 55
Land Raider 250
Land Raider 250
Land Raider 250
Ordos Xenos Inquisitor 94
Psyker, RG, tLH, 3 SS, FS
Henchmen 130
1 Psyker, 2 Ministorum Priest, 4 Death Cult Assassin, 1 Servitor/MM
Land Raider Crusader 280
PbA, EA, MM

Total 1849

Tweaked slightly to provide the charging LRC with a 2+ BotO roll.

A closing sidenote: I still haven't added any anti-flyer. How easy/dangerous is it to ignore flyers in 7th ed?

well if you run across 2 storm ravens your day will be ruined. Thats two flying multimeltas with lascannon on top. It carries 4 strength 8 ap 2 missiles. If forge world is allowed in your big gak then,Tau have a flying D weapon among other things



Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you come across a Drop Pod Army or a Army with lots of mobility or lots of lance or even Invisibility your SOL

wpago wrote:
well if you run across 2 storm ravens your day will be ruined. Thats two flying multimeltas with lascannon on top. It carries 4 strength 8 ap 2 missiles. If forge world is allowed in your big gak then,Tau have a flying D weapon among other things



Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you come across a Drop Pod Army or a Army with lots of mobility or lots of lance or even Invisibility your SOL

Really, now we're building lists against the day someone decides to bring in two kitted out stormravens? Seems like there are other things to think about first.

Probably wouldn't hurt to add in some AA; maybe the stalker, or the double las cannon Dready variant (Mortis? I forget). Enough TLLC from your LR will probably help thin things a bit anyway, but it doesn't hurt to have a tool dedicated to the job.

The trouble is that to include a stalker I would have to drop a Land Raider. The best option would be to take a Storm Raven of my own, but the 4th-ed in me doesn't want to take any flyers (completely personal bias, I think they look out of place on the tabletop).
Before I pull the trigger and purchase a whole load of plastic, I want to run another list out there. This one is much more min/max/spammy but I think it would be visually stunning.

Master of the Forge 90
5 Scouts 55
5 Scouts 55
5 Scouts 55
Land Raider 250
Land Raider 250
Land Raider 250
Ordos Xenos Inquisitor 25
Henchmen 18
1 Psyker (ML1), 2 Acolyte
Land Raider Crusader 255
Psybolt Ammunition
Henchmen 18
1 Psyker (ML1), 2 Acolyte
Land Raider Crusader 255
Psybolt Ammunition
Henchmen 18
1 Psyker (ML1), 2 Acolyte
Land Raider Crusader 255
Psybolt Ammunition

Total 1849

Is this too unoriginal/spammy to be acceptable? I just imagine 6 Land Raiders would look incredible side by side. The three Godhammer pattern could cover armor and the three Crusader pattern could mince infantry/MCs with their Psybolt Ammunition.

For all the visual appeal of the list, I feel it might make for unexciting games: Lists that struggle against AV14 will flop over while lists that excel against AV14 will mop me up. There also isn't much room for tactical play; Every game might look similar from my end.

Which list would you run with?

Zessa wrote:
The trouble is that to include a stalker I would have to drop a Land Raider. The best option would be to take a Storm Raven of my own, but the 4th-ed in me doesn't want to take any flyers (completely personal bias, I think they look out of place on the tabletop).
Before I pull the trigger and purchase a whole load of plastic, I want to run another list out there. This one is much more min/max/spammy but I think it would be visually stunning.

Master of the Forge 90
5 Scouts 55
5 Scouts 55
5 Scouts 55
Land Raider 250
Land Raider 250
Land Raider 250
Ordos Xenos Inquisitor 25
Henchmen 18
1 Psyker (ML1), 2 Acolyte
Land Raider Crusader 255
Psybolt Ammunition
Henchmen 18
1 Psyker (ML1), 2 Acolyte
Land Raider Crusader 255
Psybolt Ammunition
Henchmen 18
1 Psyker (ML1), 2 Acolyte
Land Raider Crusader 255
Psybolt Ammunition

Total 1849

Is this too unoriginal/spammy to be acceptable? I just imagine 6 Land Raiders would look incredible side by side. The three Godhammer pattern could cover armor and the three Crusader pattern could mince infantry/MCs with their Psybolt Ammunition.

For all the visual appeal of the list, I feel it might make for unexciting games: Lists that struggle against AV14 will flop over while lists that excel against AV14 will mop me up. There also isn't much room for tactical play; Every game might look similar from my end.

Which list would you run with?

If they crack your land raiders you'll lose. I think you'll want at least one deathcult/priest/crusader squad on the inquisition side and maybe a stormtalon on the space marine side

I agree with the above post. I used to do GK 5 -6 LRs even at 2k to 2500 and I didn't have enough guys. Only 15 scouts without even camo cloaks as your only real way to secure objectives just won't cut it. LRs would benefit from being dedicated transports to crusader squads with Black Templar CT since then they can get objective secured. Without that your opponent can just kill the scouts and win. I also see you having immense trouble with hordes. I also believe you'll be unimpressed with lascannons ability to kill tanks. Between tau vehicles and elder wave serpents, and all other tanks able to hide in cover, you'll have to penetrate their armor, have them fail a cover save, and then roll a 6 to kill them. If you can't manage the six, you'll need to scratch all their hull points by shooting them out of cover almost certainly on their fa, which is quite difficult. I also am not sure that your assessment that lists that cannot deal with AV14 will flop is entirely accurate, since as aforementioned they don't have to. They can kill your scouts and then if they're on an objective, you can't get them off. Unfortunately, I also don't believe your list can keep up in kill points. If your opponent gets 3-5 kps, I don't really see your list being able to outgun other lists. Crusaders shoot a lot, but at the end of the day it's a lot of bolter shots and there are so many cover saves these days. Just from experience, 4-6 LRs in a list is intimidating, and if used to deliver assault troops will almost certainly do it and put you on top for a turn, but the lack of guys and target saturation almost dooms you from the get-go if you are truly trying to make this a competitive build. Again, I think the list concept, the idea of it all is fun, but you stated you wanted a competitive build and I just don't see you winning many games with this. I hate to be cold and direct, but you intend to purchase all your guys so I'm letting you know the viability of it from my experience. I also recommend you play test a list with someone at the clubs models before you make such a hefty investment, that way you don't buy build and paint it and realize you don't like it.

(Just as a side note, waac tends to refer to people that cheat and use raw as hard fact to win, but I'm not trying to argue semantics, just mentioning it so you don't tick someone off lol )

Land raider crusaders with psybolts are good for their points, unlike normal LRs. You aren't using the LRs as assault vehicles, so why not take a protos for 200pts? You lose assault ramp and the tl HB but gain 50pts.

Here's what I would do with your idea:

Iron hands
MotF (in Spartan)

5 scouts (in spartan)
Bolters

5 scouts (in raven)
Bolters

Stormtalon
Skyhammer, tl assault cannon

Stormtalon
Skyhammer, tl assault cannon

Spartan assault tank
Ceremite, multimelta

Stormraven
Tl assault cannon, tl multimelta

Inquisition
Inquisitor

3 acolytes
Bolters
Landraider crusader
Multimelta, psybolts

3 acolytes
Bolters
Landraider crusader
Multimelta, psybolts

3 acolytes
Bolters
Landraider crusader
Multimelta, psybolts

1850pts.

The spartan is AV14 all round with 5hps, each sponsoon is a 2 shot tl lascannon, it has a tl heavy bolter and have invested in pintile mm and immunity to melta with ceremite. With IWND and a MotF inside it it should stay alive all game. It has decent fire power too unlike a standard LR.
With 2 talons and 1 raven, you will most likely own the skies.
Given the Inq LRCs multimeltas, as you want to be in short range anyway for the hurricanes and assault cannon and can use PotMS on it.
9pts left so I gave all the acolytes bolters, as bolters for plus 1pt are worth their cost.

The beauty of this list is that you have 4 AV14 (1 immune to melta) and 3 flyers. Weapons usually good at downing flyers are HRoF weaponary, which tends to be mid strength and thus poor at hurting AV14.